Jewelry, make up, and Christian women?

Arndt & Gingrich: κατα: (page 406) "down from something." [cite] (literally "hanging down from the head, as a veil). στολη: (page 777) a robe, especially a long flowing robe.

Take your own advice. I didn't say you said Tertullian was Pope, if you will go back and read my post I quoted someone else, and pointed out that Tertullian had converted to the Montanists prior to writing his famous article on καταστολη.

My website suggests nothing of the sort. You seem confused about what a "denomination" is, let me enlighten you, "de·nom·i·na·tion (d¹-n¼m”…-n³“sh…n) n. Abbr. denom. 1. A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy. American Heritage Dictionary." If you would have bothered to read the web page you tried to use against me you would have seen that we are not affiliated with any denomination, convention, association, fellowship, etc., but are an unaffiliated Baptist church.

 

Actually I did read your website. The name baptist affiliates you with the greater baptist denomination, maybe you should stop the false advertising and change the name.

You honestly don't get it do you? καταστολη is defined on p527 of BDAG or maybe this acronym is easier for you to understand BAGD.

Folks he ain't telling you the whole truth about kata. In Greek kata is a little part of speech called a preposition(Greek prep. are a pain in the arse to memorize as vocab because they change definition with the declension of the noun it modifies). For kata to mean what Mr. Cassidy says it means στολη would have to be in the genitive, but it isn't. It parses as Feminine(Gender: has nothing to do with sex), Singular(Number), and Dative(Case: the clincher here). Before you claim I miss-parsed the word I double checked my parsing in the Analytical Greek New Testament by Friberg and Friberg Now as we check the meaning of kata on pg 511-513 of BDAG we will see that kata is found with the genitive 74 times in the NT, with the accusative 391 times, with the Dative 0. Hmmm, everybody starting to see the holes in his argument now? Just to give you a clue as to how much he left out kata can mean
w/gen- down from, down upon, toward, against someone or thing
w/acc.- along, over, through, in, upon, toward, to, up to, by
With not a single meaning or reference to kata ever modifying a noun in the dative case.

Now back to my claim. I looked up the word καταστολη and found it on page 527 of BDAG it states it means attire, clothing. I will be honest with you καταστολη is a hard word to define exactly because it occurs only once in the entire new testament according to Concordance to The Greek Testament by Moulton, Geden, and Moulton p. 538. Which is why I would have been open to his translation, but he ignored so many obvious grammer rules and lexical evidence that I couldn't accept his attempt to translate as valid.

[ March 18, 2002, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Godmetal ]

 

Wow.

 

MEE, I answered that question.

 

Mee, don't be confused, you can trust your english translations.

 

Keeper said:

As far as the headcovering issue, it is a metaphor. Paul clearly tells us what each person's "head" truly is at the beginning of the chapter.

The covering of the "head" is just a signification of giving dishonor to one's spiritual head. Not whether someone has long hair or short. Paul even clarifies that the church itself has no stance concerning hair length at the end of the passage:

There, the issue is settled.

 

LaRae, not only is GodMetal ignorant of Greek grammar, etymology, and philology, he is also ignorant of ecclesiastical history. Tertuallian converted from the established church to the Montanists sometime after 200 AD. </font>[/QUOTE]With all due respect, Mr. Cassidy, I don't believe that calling others "ignorant" is in keeping with Christ's command to "love your neighbor". I am sure that you could have said what you wanted to say without insulting his intelligence.

 

MEE, I would once again like to encourage you to visit www.wels.net to gather information about gender roles in the Bible. It is our doctrine that women are submissive to men as the weaker sex, yet we do not incorporate any type of pietism into it such as what we should wear etc. You will find the doctrine it's self at: http://www.wels.net/sab/frm-bel.html There are also 18 pages in the WELS Q&A concerning gender roles. I found this concerning specifically this tope of discussion. Perhaps it will help explain how to interpret these passages

&lt;i&gt;We need to distinguish between three different situations: 1) adiaphora, which are never wrong in and of themselves, but which may become wrong if our use of them would harm others; 2) commands in the Bible which apply to certain people, but not to all of us; and 3) commands which are binding on all people at all times.

The following tests help us determine whether a statement in the Bible is describing adiaphora, a limited command, or a general command which applies to everyone:

1) Does the text say the issue being discussed in an adiaphoron? Romans 14 says eating or refraining from different foods or observing different holidays are adiaphora. The principles governing the use of adiaphora are taught in Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8, and Galatians 5.

2) Does the context of the passage limit who is addressed? In 1 Timothy 1:3 Paul tells Timothy to stay in Ephesus and to oppose the false teachers present there. It is clear that the command "Stay in Ephesus" is limited to Timothy and does not apply to us.

3) Does another statement of Scripture limit the application of the command? The Third Commandment forbids work on the seventh day of the week. The New Testament tells us that this specific command no longer applies to us (Col 2:16).

4) Does the text give a reason for the command? Does the reason for the command apply only to certain people or to all people? In 1 Corinthians 16 Paul tells the Corinthians to set aside money each Sunday so their offering will be ready when he arrives in Corinth so that no gathering of offerings will be necessary after Paul's arrival. The mechanics of this particular collection apply to the Corinthians, not to us, though we may use them as an example if we choose.

How do these principles provide an answer to your specific question? In 1 Corinthians 11 Paul tells the women in Corinth to have a covering on their heads (v 5, 14). He says he is dealing with a "custom" or a "practice" (v 14). It is a matter of propriety (v 13). The women in Corinth should not violate this custom for doing so would cause offense. In times and places which do not have this custom Paul's directions would not be applicable.

In the same chapter Paul says man is the head of woman (v 3). He says that the reason for this is that God created woman from and for man (v 8,9). Since this principle is based on an order established by God at creation, it applies to all people in all times.

In 1 Corinthians 14 Paul says women should be silent in the church (v 34). He says this command is based on the Law (v 34) and that it is a command of the Lord (v 37). Furthermore, anybody who ignores this command will be ignored by God (v 37,38). In 1 Timothy 2 Paul says women should not have authority over a man (v 12). As reasons for this command he gives the order established in creation (v 13) and the departure from this order in the Fall into sin (v 14). Since these commands are based on an order established by God at creation, it is clear that they apply to all people.

There is a detailed discussion of guidelines for distinguishing adiaphora permanent and temporary commands in the Spring, 1994 issue of the Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly, our WELS theological magazine for pastors. You may be able to borrow a copy from your pastor or from one of our church or school libraries.&lt;/i&gt;

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you forgot the [/img] at the end of the url

[ March 19, 2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Godmetal ]

 

That was a very bold statement!!!! I like it

 

1 Peter 2:9
9. But ye are a chosen generation,a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth * the praises of him who hath called * you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

If we look just like the world how can we win them? You are supposed to be a peculiar people? Whats peculiar about you if you look, talk, and act just like the world?

I am sorry, but God has a way he wants "HIS" men and women to dress and act.

Deuteronomy :5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

A dress is for a woman and pants are for the men. If that sounds confuseing then just go to your local restraunt and tell me how one usually knows what door to go in when they go to the restroom. One has a woman with a dress on and the other does not. Now if Our doors can tell the diffrence b/t a man and a woman, How much smarter are we than a door?

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Sorry to get off the topic but could not resist from this one.

Galatians 5: 19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, AND SUCH LIKE: OF THE WHICH I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Looks like Paul covered all the other stuff that he did not have time to write about with those words in bold up there.

But you say Maybe kissing is not a sin, maybe danceing is not a sin. Well maybe its not, But if your totally honest most people cant say that danceing and kissing dosent lead to other thoughts and Actions. Remember its not just the action that is wrong.(Matt 5:28) But the bible tells us to lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,(Hebrews 12:1)

I got a dr's appt. Be back shortly to finish up.

Brian

 

Its not quite that simple of a delineation. Because there are pants specifically designed for women and I think the ladies on this board can back me up on this.

 

Where does the Bible teach this. What kind of pants did Jesus wear?

Mr. Cassidy,

Don't you think that the statement women were supposed to wear "long" robes, meant "as opposed to the shorter robes men could wear"?

Men in those days didn't wear pants either. Who says women always have to wear "robes" when men do not? Maybe men should return to wearing short robes then that would make our "long" dresses look more appropriate.

I agree with what Don said, we should use those scriptures in determining what we should wear. Modesty can be worn with both dresses and pants.

~Lorelei

 

Its not quite that simple of a delineation. Because there are pants specifically designed for women and I think the ladies on this board can back me up on this.</font>[/QUOTE]Metal this is how simple it is. If you know you are doing something that makes someone else stumble do you continue doing it even though it does not bother you?

I use to have the biggest attitude towards discussions like this at youth when i first got into church. My Youth Pastor's wife made a statement that kindled me. She told us that even if you are the same sex that it is not good to walk around in unrevealing clothes b/c the person that you are around may have faced a problem in the past that you never had to face. And my attitude was well.... maybe they need to check there selves out and there walk with God b/c If another guy is battleing likeing me, then they are the ones that do not need to be around me.

But one day i went off to boot camp where all the men were required to shower together and all the women were required to shower with all the women. And I started thinking to my self, What if another guy is looking at me? It made me sick, and that made me stop and think. Not every person that I am around is going to be.... well you get the picture. But what if one of those guys just gave their lives over to God and he looked at me and had a lustful thought? Who answers to that one, me or him?

Now you can say "Well you were required to do that so you are not at fault. And maybe i was not held accountable for that, but it taught me a valuble lesson. No matter where I am now I am very careful about what I show off.

Maybe a hottie in tight pants dont bother you, or maybe a hottie in a short skirt dont bother you, or maybe a hottie in a skimpy swimsuit doesnot bother you but if I am not careful I can get carried away in my thoughts.

Dont get me wrong there are dresses that come down to the floor that are considered not modest so dont think just b/c it is a dress that touches the floor is ok. ANd please dont get me wrong in this area as well, but if your heart is not right, it does not matter how you look on the outside.

The Bible tells us to follow after pease with all men and Holliness without which no man shall see the lord.(Hebrews 12:14)

Holiness starts on the inside but works its way out.

But thank God b/c he gives us room for ignorance. You know, the people that just got saved and dont know any better.... But let me ask you this....

the bible tells us this in Matt:7

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

and few there be that find it.

Keep repeating that to yourself for about 15 times and ponder on it. What do you get out of it? Maybe you see this as talking about salvation and about there are only going to be a few that make it to heaven. But if you would look at it like this.

Did you find salvation on your own, Did you come to know God on your own? Did you learn all you know about Greek and Hebrew on your own?

I dare to go as far to say as "You did not find all that out on your own" But someone had to show you or help you. Therefore makeing the statement true "Few there be that find it."

And the same is with Salvation and Holiness etc. How are we showing someone how to be holy by dangling a pair of pants in front of them that were designed to fit only a woman who has to jump off of a ten story buiding to fit themselves in side of them

But you can get into this and why do you do this and not this and blah blah blah blah blahh and yadda yadda yadda and so on and so forth.

Thats why the United Pentecostal Church set a standard. They drew a line and said this is where we draw the line. They set a standard.

So is it a Sin to for a women to wear pants? I dont know. Is it a sin for a Man to wear shorts? I dont know. But I sit under a man of God that teaches these guidlines. Not so He can get a big head and say "Look what I can do" But b/c He knows by setting a standard it provides us with protection. There is a Freedom in Bondage people. And we are not bound b/c a man says so. We are bound b/c we choose so.

And Mee alot of this is directed to you b/c I know where you come from. I am not saying that you reblelled and you are doomed for hell, but all I am saying is this.

What you had or still have is so special. The world looks at people like you diffrent. Does it not feel good to know when you are on top of doing whats right and haveing a pure heart and have someone come up to you and say "I noticed your long beautiful hair and your dress and I could tell a few blocks down the road that you were diffrent. You are a child of God arent you?" Does that not feel good or what?

They did not notice you b/c you were any better then them, they noticed you b/c you were diffrent, b/c you were set apart from the rest, You are that drop of rain that someone needed who has been out in the desert for so long screaming "GOD PLEASE SEND ME SOMEONE"

None of us are bound b/c of our standards, Our standards are one of the biggest blessings that we have. Once again, Not b/c it makes us any better, but b/c it sets us apart.

God bless
Brian

[ March 19, 2002, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

I guess I should of made myself clear in that I was referring to Dt 22:5 with the pants thing.

Shorts and pants can be quite modest.

The last time I checked my fiancee doesn't have to leap off a 10 story building to get into her pants.

To be honest now a day's when I see a goodlookin' lady be she in modest or immodest clothing I find myself thinking of my fiancee and wishing we were together(we are currently at seperate schools and over 700 miles apart )

Tell me how does long hair set apart Christian women from non Christian women? Last time I checked long hair is still a popular hairstyle.

 

Oneness:

Very cute!
Actually, I think you would make a better Baptist then I would an Apostolic, so lets begin the transition! *hehe*

I actually want to make a point on the whole pants issue.

Why is it men object to women wearing pants? Besides the fact that they are considered men's clothing, they think they are immodest. Why? (Please forgive me for being blunt, but I feel it really must be said) Because they can see her curves. They "compliment" her physical make up (or rather flaunt it) and this can cause a man to be aroused and have sinful thoughts. (At least I have heard this argument made in the past)

What about men in pants? Do they fit the form of the body even less? Women are just as prone to sinful thoughts as men are. I think you men would blush if you had any idea what some women say when they see an attractive man. Whether they are in dress pants or jeans, some women still have thoughts that would make even sailors blush.

I just thought it should be mentioned since we are talking about modesty. Yes, only women were told to dress modestly, but as Don pointed out, we were all told not to make our brothers stumble, would that include sisters too?

The men of the Bible times wore robes, correct? When did pants become doctrine?

~Lorelei