Eternal Security

Amen!!!!!! to your post Ruht. You will find those who opose you here from various background. All of which feel that when a person gets saved that the person grabs a hold of God. When a person sins then they let go of God and thus become unsaved. We however, understand that when a person gets saved God grabs them, and though we may do things wrong after that God will never let go. We are safe in God's hand for all eternity. The fact is if it were left up to us we would be grabing his hand and letting go throughout our lives. How strange a thing that would be.
Ruht, as you said God made a promise and he is faithful to the end even if we make mistakes along the way

Oh what a mighty God we serve!!!!!!!!!!

-Brian

[ August 26, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Ruht, Thanks for both of your posts and the scripture you included. It amazes me sometimes at how weak some think the BLOOD of Christ is. I wonder if those who believe that the washing of the BLOOD can be temporary could look Jesus in the eye and tell him that His Blood doesn't necessarily save for all time. For me, the Blood of Jesus cleansing forever is such a simple truth. Thanks again, Ruht

In Christ,
Brian

 

Hey Brian!

One question:

According to 1 Corinthians 5:5, exactly when is it that we are saved?

 

I just don't believe in self-proclaimed salvation.

By the way, I see that you are unwilling to give a Biblical answer to my question. Which is the higher authoriy, the Bible or you?

[ August 26, 2002, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

Tuor:

Dr. Scofield in his reference notes points out that the word salvation or saved is much more than being saved from the wrath to come.

The Greek (ajlektorofwniva is defined as safety, preservation, healing and soundness) "Salvation is the great inclusive word of the Gospel, gathering unto itself all redemptive acts and processes: as justification, redemption, grace, propitiation, imputation, forgiveness, santification and glorification" Scofield 1917

Salvation is in three tenses:

1. The believer has been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin and is safe. 1 Cor. 1:18

2. The believer is being saved from the habit and dominion of sin. Romans 6 14-22 and is growing to be more like Christ

3. The believer will be saved from the presence of sin altogether when Christ comes.Romans 13:11

What do you mean by "Self proclaimed salvation"?

It is only God who can declare the guilty free and forgiven. The Lord Jesus made it very plain that there are two sides to eternal life. Either we have it or we do not have it. Furthermore Christ taught that eternal life is an immediate possession to those who rest in the work of Christ. The people who came across the path of Christ during his time on earth most certainly experienced first hand his healing power both physically and spiritually.

You ask what does 1 Cor. 5:5 save us from?

Within the context of the chapter which is addressed to the church of God at Corinth, Paul brings to their attention that there is gross immorlality within their midst and it is being tolerated. In a sense to remove this sin would purify the church, conversely, if this sin is not dealt with the church will suffer a lost testimony.

In verse 5 I believe Paul with his apostolic authority is bringing about discipline which would be considered extreme. "To deliver such a one to the domain of satan for destruction of the flesh" Notice that it is not the destruction of the entire man, but the fleshly lust which have caused him to sin and continue in the sin of incest. "but that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" Paul is pointing forward to that day when all Christains will stand before Christ and be judged for their life since they were saved. This judgement is to test our works as described in 1 Cor. 3: 12 - 15

We find that this discipline was effective and that in fact the man was delivered from his sinful ways was restored back to God and to membership in the church. 2 Cor. 2: 1-9

I would like to quote a very familiar verse. "For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life" These are the words of the Lord Jesus which are make the new birth very clear.

Robert

 

Well, apparently we now know the name of the Holy Spirit and it is ruht.

How convenient.

I find it amazing to see him proclaiming that another Protestant is of the devil. Shucks, and I thought such venom was reserved for us Katylics!

Well, I'd like to ask a question or two, however, I don't expect much of an answer from ruht. Probably the same run of the mill insults reserved for us "stupid papists." Maybe from the Briguy, since he is possessed of a more gentle and Christian spirit.

In John 5:29, Jesus says the following:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Kindly explain what Jesus meant when He said these words.

Ro 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Kindly explain what St. Paul meant when he wrote these words.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Explain what it means that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance.

Mr 10:17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Explain to me why Jesus didn't give YOUR INTERPRETATION of eternal life to the rich young ruler, based on the above verses.

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which ye are.

Explain how if your "once saved - always saved" doctrine is true that St. Paul could make the above statement to believers.

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Explain why St. Paul would put the word "if" in the above verse when discussing salvation.

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Explain again why St. Paul would state that Christ would present believers holy and unblameable in his sight only IF they continued in the faith.

Finally, explain to me why you think that the covenant insures that once a person has believed he is set for all eternity. Do this in light of the Biblical model which shows that covenants are both breakable and made with blood oaths.

I be interested in yer answers.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Hi Brother Ed, Thanks for the earlier compliment. Ruht basically answered all of your questions pretty well. Both of you must have too much time on your hands to pose and answer so many questions at once

Anyway, The first question you asked is answered by James when he said that Faith without works is dead and that you will see his faith by his works. You see without works there is no way to seperate the saved from the unsaved. What we know on the inside of us is seen by others as "works". James says the works will follow saving faith, if the works do not follow the faith is not saving (i.e. the seed that falls on the path). I know this is a simple answer and you have heard it before but as you know from our past correspondence I am convinced that Jesus brought forth a simple message and man has made that message into the deep, theological mess, that we so often see in churches today.

Hi Nils, I forgot the question you asked but I am glad to see you posting again. Where you been hiding Man?

I know that I am saved or have salvation because the Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. (To use your belief) The saving faith I have is evident by my "works" which I only can judge by what is said by others to me, about me. We ask God to search us and he will and we must self evaluate ourselves as well. I truely trust in the promises of God and he promised eternal life for those that really believe.

In Christian love,
Brian

 

Brian,

I was on vacation for a few weeks. As to my original question:

According to 1 Corinthians 5:5, exactly when is it that we are saved?

Where is this in the Bible? This may be your understanding of what the Bible says, but this is not really what the Bible says. In the parable of the seeds, the ones whose hearts are represented by rocky soil and weed infested soils really believed. It wasn't their kind of belief that caused them to believe in vain, it was their heart that caused them to fail.

 

It was not a rock, it was rocky soil. According to Jesus, the seed grew. Have you ever seen a seed start growing on a rock? According to the KJV:

Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

As you can plainly see, there was earth in which the see grew. The truth of God was alive in this heart.

 

Nils, I have a pratical application for this parable that just happened in my life. I have a friend who was diagnosed with Luekemia(sp?) about a year and a half ago. I shared the gospel with him as did his brother. He started to read the Bible and even started to change some of his actions. He then had a bone marrow transplant and went into remission. As he felt better he read the Bible less and talked about God less. He was unsure still whether he would go to heaven after death when asked directly. About three weeks ago he was feeling sick and found out the L. is back in full force. He has been given about six months to live at best. He is 41 with a wife and 4 year old dtr. by the way. Anyway, I have had some great talks with him over the past 3 weeks and the other night while praying with his brother he placed his trust, by faith in Christ. When I saw him last night he was different, in the openess of his faith and his concern for the salvation of his family. You see he was the rocky soil that allowed the plant to grow but there was not a root so the plant just went away as he needed God less. Now though he is a "believer" and so his heart is good soil and so the plant is rooted forever, and though his plant will not have alot of time to grow (barring a miracle) he is secure for all eternity as the root which God plants can never be taken out.

My friends name is Gary, please pray for him and his family!!!!!!

In Christian love,
Brian

Nils, I will try to include scripture later.

[ August 27, 2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Ruht --

quote:I didn't proclaim anyone is of the devil. Apparently you are as bad as interpreting my words as you are the Lord's.

Copied from this thread, YOUR ANSWER to another with whom YOU disagree:

Your misinterpretations, inspired by Satan, are not the Bible.

We will wait for yer apology.

quote:It's Ruht. When addressing the name of a person, proper grammar requires the capitalization of the first letter of the name.

Sorry. Somewhere I saw it with all small letters and my brain followed that.

quote:There is nothing "run of the mill" about grace.

I know. Hope you find some somewhere. So far your posts have been distinctly lacking of it.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

OK. Those who have done good are those who were saved by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and thus, born of the Holy Spirit.

Says NO SUCH THING. Go back and read the verse again. The word "faith" is not in there at all. You are acting now like Luther who was intemperate enough to add words to the Scriptures to suit his particular theological bent. It says "those who have done good". Period.

quote:"Ro 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


OK. St Paul was referring to the deeds of either accepting salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, or not accepting it. And "well doing" are those who have had faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not in the attempted obedience to written commandments.

Doesn't say that either. In fact, the whole of Romans 2: 5 - 10, which describes the Last Judgement, says NOTHING regarding faith. It says that those who have sought eternal life through the perseverence in good deeds shall indeed receive it. And those who have done evil shall receive for their evil deeds. You really should read the Scriptures the way they are written and not how you want them to read. This is why Christ gave the world the Catholic Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:15), because there are THOUSANDS of little "popettes" like you in pulpits all across the world who are all too willing to bend, twist, and distort the clear wording of Scripture to fit their understandings and culturalisms.

quote "14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Explain what it means that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance."

Perhaps this might help your confusion:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also HATH given unto us the earnest of the Spirit." - II Corinthians 5:5

"Earnest" means, in this sense: "something given as an indication or assurance of what is to come; token." (Webster's New World College Dictionary, Fourth Edition Copyright 1999)

You should stop to read what you copy. A token of something which is to come is NOT the same as the full amount. It is a pledge. The Holy Spirit is the foretaste of Heaven and eternal life. But we get the full amount after we have been judged and if we have been found faithful covenant keepers.

Christ was telling the person that all of his own works of self righteousness were still not good enough, that the only way he could ever be saved was through faith in Christ, not through the attempted obedience of the written laws this person had tried to boast he had kept.

That again, is NOT what Jesus said. You really need to imagine yourself as a Jew standing there listening to what Jesus was saying. Jesus said that we are to keep God's commandments. That is what anyone listening would have understood. Is Jesus a deciever who says one thing but secretly means another? No, He told Caiphas that He had preached plainly and in the open His doctrines. You need to stop twisting His words to suit you and then accusing all who take His words literally of being "legalists".

Christ told him to "sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor," as a witness against the self-righteousness of this person, and his dishonesty. For this person was proven not to be nearly as self-righteous as he exalted himself, for he was not able to sell everything he had, in his self-righteousness, thus demonstrating all of his attempted obedience to written law was not done in sincerity from within. Christ exposed his real heart, that he was only righteous on the outside.

Indeed. The young man, for all his good deeds, had an idol which needed to be smashed. Christ pointed this out to him. Incidentally, there is an interesting tradition which says that this young man might have been St. Paul. Knowing the caliber of St. Paul's life as outline in Scripture, this is possible.

quote: "1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which ye are.

Explain how if your "once saved - always saved" doctrine is true that St. Paul could make the above statement to believers."

How can the temple defile the temple? And how can God living inside of the temple, the Holy Spirit in saved man, defile the temple?

You are defiling the temple of God if you claim the saved body of a person is not yet good enough.

Is anyone else confused by this answer? This makes no sense at all to me.

quote: "1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

"If" you keep in memory what Paul preached, then you have accepted it, and have become saved. "Believed in vain" means having misunderstood the words of Paul, and thus having thought that salvation came through attempted obedience to written commandments.

You miss my point. With the "once saved - always saved crowd" there is no "if". For St. Paul to use the word "if" in the same sentence as salvation creates the scenario that our salvation has an "if" to it.

quote: "Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Explain again why St. Paul would state that Christ would present believers holy and unblameable in his sight only IF they continued in the faith."

"If" you accept the gospel, and do not turn away from it, you are saved. "If" you turn away from it, you are not saved.

No such concept is found in Scripture anywhere. This idea sprung out of the Protestant Rebellion and their attempts to reconcile Luther and Calvin's teachings of "perseverence" of the saints with the Biblical teaching that a believer may indeed fall away. St. Paul is writing to believers here and warning them to continue in the faith. Your interpretation is a man made idea which is not found in the verse above.

An eternal covenant made by God cannot be broken by God, for it is impossible for God to lie. Only man is capable of breaking such a covenant between God and man; unsaved man, that is.

The eternal covenant is between the members of the Trinity. They exist in perfect and unbreakable covenant with one another. As for the relationship between God and man, it is a covenant and if you study Deut. 28, you will see the outline of how covenants work. One of the principles of a covenant is that they are breakable.

I would suggest you read Ray Sutton's book on the covenant THAT YOU MAY PROSPER, in order to come to an understanding of what a covenant is and how one works.

Cordially in disagreement,

Brother Ed

[ August 28, 2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]

 

Some further thoughts for Ruht:

Just had a customer cancel an appointment, so I have a few hours to kill. I would like to approach your initial thread another way.

Our Lord said at the Last Passover/First Eucharist:

"This is the New Covenant IN MY BLOOD..."

The word "covenant" appears over 280 times between the Old and New Testament. Therefore, since it not only appears so much, but because Christ established the New Covenant in the Blood He shed upon the Cross, it is a very important concept for us to consider as believers.

A covenant happens when two people come into union. The best definition of a covenant here on earth would be that which the Bible gives -- marriage. We are called "The Bride of Christ" for this reason. We enter into a profoundly intimate relationship with the Lord in our salvation. It is compared to marriage.

In a marriage, there are oaths made between the parties with sanctions that happen if the oaths are broken. The wife promises to obey the husband. The husband promises to love the wife. (Eph. 5). By the doing of these things, the relationship grows and matures. The two become ever closer in their relationship.

Now how does one accomplish these things? Does the wife practice submission by sitting around and thinking nice thoughts about her husband? Or does she DO those things that the husband instructs her in? For instance, a wife who has been instructed to wash the clothes, pay the bills, and have dinner on the table at 6:30 sharp, yet who does not do these things, has NOT practiced submission. She can think all the nice things about her husband, and even say them on the phone to her girlfriends, but in ACTIONS AND DEEDS, she has failed to submit to him.

This is similar to the Christian who sits around in his state of "faith alone" Christianity and never DOES what the divine Bridegroom instructed us to do. Our good deeds do not earn us salvation -- we are already in the love relationship by virtue of making covenant with God through Christ. Our good deeds are the means by which we keep covenant with the one we are married to. And they show our heart for Him, do they not?

Now what will happen to the wife who does not submit to her husband? Will they grow closer or will there be tension? What will happen if this continues year after year after year? Will there be a real "one flesh" relationship in their marriage? I think you know the answer. And ultimately, there may well be a divorce. A severing of that relationship.

This is what happens when a believer does not submit to the divine Bridegroom. Salvation is union with Christ. It is relationship which is supposed to grow ever deeper and more intimate. But if we do not do the will of our divine Bridegroom, we sever ourselves from His life and from being "one flesh" with Him. And if this continues without repentance, if we constantly "break the covenant" with Him by deeds of rebellion (sin), then in the Judgement Day, He will divorce us eternally. That is the sanction of the broken oath. Study Deut. 28 closely. There are blessings for covenant keepers and cursings for covenant breakers.

This is not legalism, despite what you say. Legalism is trying to make the covenant with God by our own works and ignoring Christ. It is the Hindu who "baptizes" himself in the Ganges River every year to try to wash away his sins. He is trying to get to God without Christ. That is legalism.

Christ has established the New Covenant with God in His own Blood. The New Covenant is permanent because the Blood of Christ cannot fail. But that permanent covenant is between Christ and God. We enter into Christ by baptism (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27) and sharing in Him, we become part of that covenant. But if we break our covenant with Christ, if we leave Him, then we can no longer be partakers of the eternal covenant between Christ and God.

Our works are what "keeps covenant" with Christ. We do what the divine Bridegroom instructs us to do and thus doing, we both show our love and share in His love for us.

I realize that you distinctly disagree with this. My only hope is that you might meditate upon the covenant and how it works out in our lives as the Bride of Christ.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed