Eternal Security

"I didn't proclaim anyone is of the devil. Apparently you are as bad as interpreting my words as you are the Lord's."

Then you'll be waiting a long time, for "inspired" by Satan is not the same as being "of" Satan.

Apparently your inability to be able to rightly divide my sharp words is not unlike your inability to divide the Lord's sharp words.

"It's Ruht. When addressing the name of a person, proper grammar requires the capitalization of the first letter of the name."

Glad you edited what you said previously, for you claimed it was written that way at the start of this thread.

"There is nothing "run of the mill" about grace."

I have "found" it, and I indeed preach it, which is the true reason you find fault with me.

"OK. Those who have done good are those who were saved by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and thus, born of the Holy Spirit."

Line must be upon line, my friend, and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, and indeed, it says such a thing. And if "Luther" also said it, then Luther was right.

You should then listen to Luther.

A person does not "do good" by trying to justify himself through attempted obedience to written commandments. A person only does good by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

I ask you, legalist: Does that say a person does good by attempted obedience to written commandments?

The Lord taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

"OK. St Paul was referring to the deeds of either accepting salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, or not accepting it. And "well doing" are those who have had faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not in the attempted obedience to written commandments."

Line must be upon line, my friend, and precept upon precept. The only way a person is justified is through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not by his own efforts of righteousness. The Bible indeed says this, but you are failing to apply it. You are forgetting what manner of man you are - saved by grace, not by works - and because of this you are stumbling at scripture.

If I told you "the cat is green, it will always be green, and it will never be anything else," and then I told you "the feline is blue," would you abandon what I said previously about the cat always and only being green, or would you remain upon such a sure foundation, without wavering, and realize that the cat is still green, and there must be some other interpretation of "the feline is blue."

This is what you are doing with the Bible, and God wrote the Bible this way intentionally to "snare" people like you. For your true faith is revealed by this, as you forsake Christ to accept righteousness through attempted obedience to written law, when you read verses which sound as if they agree with your own self-righteousness. But those who have true faith in Christ will not waver, and they will not be fooled by that which "sounds" like it is saying something else, for they know that man is only justified by what Christ did, not by what man does, and they know that will never change, and will always be.

This is the SURE FOUNDATION referred to in Isaiah 28 and other places. I pray you learn of it.

You have forgotten what manner of man you are, as testified to in James 1, and you therefore are fooled by such scriptures.

It says it all throughout the Bible, you need to remain upon the sure foundation while interpreting scripture.

And "good deeds" are not things done to try and earn salvation, good deeds begin with faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and continue by nature through the birth of the Holy Spirit.

Again, you have failed to apply line upon line, and precept upon precept.

Yes, you should.

The legalism in the Catholic church was not given by Christ, and my words and knowledge of grace are from the Holy Spirit.

"Perhaps this might help your confusion:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also HATH given unto us the earnest of the Spirit." - II Corinthians 5:5

"Earnest" means, in this sense: "something given as an indication or assurance of what is to come; token." (Webster's New World College Dictionary, Fourth Edition Copyright 1999)"

You should stop to understand what you read.

The "token" of the Holy Spirit is not a "taste" of eternal life, as we have full eternal life, now. (John 5:24; John 6:47; John 6:54; John 10:28; I John 5:11; I John 5:13) And this "token" is not a "pledge," but an assurance.

"Christ was telling the person that all of his own works of self righteousness were still not good enough, that the only way he could ever be saved was through faith in Christ, not through the attempted obedience of the written laws this person had tried to boast he had kept."

That is exactly what Jesus said. However, your legalistic veil over your eyes keeps you from seeing it.

That is what a self-righteous legalist like yourself would have understood, which is why you, along with the person Christ was speaking to, stumble and turn from his grace

Jesus is not the deceiver, your own heart is. Jesus just spoke in a way that those who refused to believe in him, could not hear, and he said so:

"Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." - Luke 8:10

"And he said, Go and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." - Isaiah 6:9&19

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath REVEALED them unto us BY HIS SPIRIT: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. - I Corinthians 2:7-10

You cannot understand the words of Christ because your eyes, ears and heart are not capable of understanding his words. Only through the revelations of the Holy Spirit will you ever be able to understand the Lord.

They are plain; however, the natural man cannot hear the plain words of Christ:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED." - I Corinthians 2:14

They are "plain" to me, why are they not "plain" to you?

I do not "twist" the plain words of God, rather you do, as do all legalists.

"Christ told him to "sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor," as a witness against the self-righteousness of this person, and his dishonesty. For this person was proven not to be nearly as self-righteous as he exalted himself, for he was not able to sell everything he had, in his self-righteousness, thus demonstrating all of his attempted obedience to written law was not done in sincerity from within. Christ exposed his real heart, that he was only righteous on the outside."

Actually, this "young man" had boasted openly before Christ, his disciples, God and man that he had kept the law, thus asserting that he was righteous. Christ, who is God, knew he had not kept the law, and as a witness in front of the others, proved the unrighteous heart of this individual by letting them all see that he was not as good as he espoused. Christ proved the shortcomings of the written law, how that the righteousness in the written law was still not good enough. Christ proved that this person was self-righteous, not truly seeking the righteousness of Christ, when giving the man something he could not give up. The man therefore left Christ, satisfied with his own righteousness, because he did not truly believe in Christ.

Christ was not saying that someone has to sell everything they have and give to the poor in order to have eternal life, he was proving the heart of this individual, in how it was not nearly as righteous and obedient to God as he espoused in the law. The only way he could have been saved was by "following Christ," which means being saved and born again of the Holy Spirit. This was the only way Christ was telling this man he could be saved.

"How can the temple defile the temple? And how can God living inside of the temple, the Holy Spirit in saved man, defile the temple?

You are defiling the temple of God if you claim the saved body of a person is not yet good enough."

I'm sure it doesn't.

"If you keep in memory what Paul preached, then you have accepted it, and have become saved. "Believed in vain" means having misunderstood the words of Paul, and thus having thought that salvation came through attempted obedience to written commandments."

False. There is an "if" if you have not yet accepted Christ; which is where you are stumbling.

Salvation does have an "if' to it, and the "if' means "if" you are saved or not, not "if" you stay saved or not.

Because Paul is speaking of the mind of the believer, in which he would present you "holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight."

As I believe I said before, you failed to quote the important verse before that:

And you, that were sometime alienated in your mind by wicked works, yet know hath he reconciled. - Colossians 1:21

If one was "alienated" in one's MIND, and this passage speaks of a "reconciliation" of that alienation, then where is the author referring to as to where the reconciliation is taking place?

Here's a hint: The same place where one was "alienated" in, the MIND.

Therefore the author is saying that if one holds fast in faith that which he has taught about grace, in their MINDS, then in their MINDS the Holy Spirit would present them "holy and umblameable and unreprovable in his sight," just as what is going on between you and me. I know that I am saved and not under any condemnation, because I stand firm in faith on the sure foundation. You, however, have forgotten what manner of man you are - saved by grace, not by works - and you therefore are at unrest in your mind in regard to your relationship and standing with God.

You see, in your fear and doubt of your salvation, all you therefore see when you read that passage and passages like that are words like "if" and things like that. But the person who stands firm on the sure foundation of grace, who does not interpret scripture in haste, but waits upon the Lord for HIS interpretation, God then directs them to noticing things that the legalist passes by.

For the doers of the perfect law of liberty are truly blessed in their deeds, just as James 1:25 says they are.

God wrote the Bible this way intentionally.

"If" you accept the gospel, and do not turn away from it, you are saved. "If" you turn away from it, you are not saved."

It is all throughout the Bible, and here is one easy place for starters:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18

I am sorry you are not able to see this.

There is no teaching anywhere in the Bible that a believer can fall away.

And the Protestants were wise to come out from under the Satanic yoke of the Catholic church which was erroneously espousing such a thing. Legalists have been in the "church" since the beginning of time, and they even killed Christ and the prophets. And the legalistic Catholic hierarchy I'm sure killed as many prophets as they could get away with, also. All one has to do is look towards their bloody history, including their Crusades and Inquisitions.

Satan has disguised himself as an angel of light for quite awhile, and the most evil men who ever lived are unsaved legalists, which is why Christ said they would receive the greater damnation.

Has there been good done in the Catholic church? yes, there are indeed genuine Christians in the Catholic church; although I am sure tormented somewhat by the legalism shoved down their infant throats by vipers in tall, pointy hats, robes and long, pointing fingers.

Praise God for the Protestant reformation.

Says a blind legalist.

"An eternal covenant made by God cannot be broken by God, for it is impossible for God to lie. Only man is capable of breaking such a covenant between God and man; unsaved man, that is."

It is an eternal covenant with man, legalist, and God says it is:

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will REMEMBER THEIR SIN NO MORE." - Jeremiah 31:33-34

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them; And their sins and iniquities I will REMEMBER NO MORE. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." - Hebrews 10:16-18

"For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14

And "REMEMBER NO MORE" and "FOREVER" means ETERNAL.

I suggest Ray Sutton come into this forum and read what I have written.

God bless.

[ August 28, 2002, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

The "new covenant" was actually the older of the two. For man has always been only saved by grace.

There is no "broken oath" in this covenant, for there is no divorce.

A man does not have the right to divorce his wife because she won't "submit" unto him.

However, the saved are always in submission to God, as the Holy Spirit is stronger than their own will.

The truly saved always do what the bridegroom instructs them to do. For the Holy Spirit is stronger than their own will. (Romans 6:16-22; Philippians 2:13)

Have you not read:

"A new heart also will I give to you, and a new spirit will put within you: and I will take the stony heart out of your flesh, and give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye SHALL keep my judgments, and DO THEM." - Ezekiel 36:26&27

Doesn't sound to me like the bride has much of a "free will" choice now, does "she."

The Lord taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Our truly good deeds come forth by nature, through the birth of the Holy Spirit, not through the efforts of the flesh.

Tell me this, legalist, how were these Gentiles able to keep the things contained in the law, when they had never even had nor seen the law before, in their lives:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by NATURE the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another;..." - Romans 2:14&15

What say you, legalist, how were these Gentiles able to keep the law when they never had ever even seen the law before?

It's highlighted in bold, CAPITAL letters for you to see how.

Oh, I know the answer; pay attention and you will learn it.

There is no divorce from Christ, for the putting away of the wife is a sin, and Christ said so.

And the bride of Christ is the entire church, not each individual. We are not all individual "wives" of the Lord, the church collectively is the bride of Christ. This would then mean Christ would have to divorce the entire church. The Bible mentions nowhere of the "brides" of Christ, but rather the BRIDE of Christ.

You apparently do greatly err.

You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.

Salvation is salvation, it is not probation.

One does not do the "will" of God by trying to justify one's self through attempted obedience to written commandments.

You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. We are not saved by attempted obedience to written commandments, and therefore we are not judged for failing to keep written commandments. We are only saved by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and we are only saved ONCE. For we receive eternal life the moment we are saved, and eternal life IS eternal life.

I ask you, foolish legalist: Do you believe in eternal damnation? I'm sure you do, as fear is what motivates the legalist, not faith. Therefore if one receives eternal damnation, can they come out of eternal damnation? And if you say no, then why do you not think eternal life is just as eternal as eternal damnation?

Christ has said we HAVE eternal life the moment we belief, have you not read my posts? Are you now going to argue that eternal life is not as eternal as eternal damnation?

There is apparently no limit to the ends a legalist will go to, to deny Christ.

It is pure legalism, despite what YOU say.

Keep telling yourself that, legalist, if that comforts you somewhat. But then tell me how the Pharisees and others in the Jewish religiosity who never even knew anything "Hindu" could have then been legalists.

I ask you, legalist, did not the Pharisees have the scriptures which stated the coming of the Messiah? Why then did they not recognize the Messiah when he stood right in front of their faces?

Because he did not preach written commandments as the way to justification, that's why. Which was a motive of theirs behind them killing him.

Now, even though they believed in a Messiah, was that enough to save them? Did they trust in the Messiah for their salvation, or did they trust in their own efforts through attempted obedience to written law?

The Bible says it was the latter. (Romans 9:30-33)

So what makes you any different than they? You have heard the name Jesus, that there is a Messiah, but do you trust in this Jesus for your salvation, or do you also trust in your attempted obedience to written commandments?

Why should the Pharisees not escape hell, but you should, when you both appear to believe the same thing?

Believing in Christ means having faith in what he did on the cross. It means trusting in his redemptive deed for your salvation, faith in his blood, not in your own works of righteousness. How can you say you believe in Christ as such, if your works prove your faith is in works, not in Christ?

You show me your faith in works by trying to be righteous through attempted obedience to written laws; I'll show you my faith in Christ by me being at REST in what he has done for me on the cross.

My works show my faith in Christ; your works show your faith in works. And therefore you have just been revealed the mystery of James 2:17-26.

I hope and pray you are listening.

And how do you say we can ever leave eternal life? Can those in hell ever leave eternal damnation?

You do not know what you are talking about.

Our "works" keep nothing with Christ. His faithfulness is what keeps covenant with US.

Your such works are in vain. (Galatians 3:1-4)

We do what the Holy Spirit leads us to do, and we do it by nature, not by written commandment. For the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. (II Corinthians 3:6)

God bless.

 

If one does not have the Holy Spirit, one is not saved:

"...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

If one is not previously saved, yet then one calls out to Christ for salvation, one cannot do so unless one has repented from his previous state.

If one refuses to accept the free atonement of the blood of Jesus Christ for one's free pardon, then one will not be covered by that atonement. And one must obviously believe it atones, if one chooses to accept it. And being covered by this atonement is salvation.

We accept it by having the faith to call out to God for it. If we call out to God for his mercy, the mercy he has provided us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, he will hear our call and give us the mercy.

I ask you: How was it required to freely eat from the tree of life in the garden of Eden? We are eating from the new, free tree of life when we call out to God for it. It is just as free today, as it was for Adam and Eve. Why should they be given the chance for such a free eternal life, and not us? God has provided us with the same offer, in a sense, only this time we had to be reedemed, first.

God knows everyone, at least in the sense of knowing who they are. However, if you mean in the sense of spiritual intercouse, how could he not know me, if I have called out to him for his mercy, and have been saved?

He knows me, in fact what I write about grace upon this board is from him, for he taught it to me supernaturally.

God bless.

 

Yes, but they are the same person, and this passage and the next two verses are revelation of that, as they reveal the Trinity; if you are able to discern it.

Technically I did misquote it in that instance, and I am sorry I didn't catch it, but they are the same being, as the Spirit of God is mentioned just prior in the same verse and in reference to the same Spirit.

It is a derivative of my actual name. It is pronounced "Root;" at least that's how I pronounce it, you can pronounce it anyway you like.

God bless.

 

Ruht,

"It was not "rocky soil," it was a "rock," just as Christ said it was, in Luke 8:6&13, KJV."

I've read it, just as I said, and it is referring to what Christ, I, Matthew and Luke say. Are you saying Christ, through Luke, is inaccurate?

It's you who is wrong. You apparently are not capable of properly interpreting scripture.

"Yes, it fell upon stony places, meaning upon stones. There is no deepness of earth upon stones."

No, it wasn't. and Luke clears that up. Are you calling Luke a lie?

You are just not interpreting the Bible through the author of the Bible, but through your own understanding. And you harden your heart when the truth is presented to you.

And once again I tell you that Jesus is right, Matthew is right, Luke is right, I am right, and YOU are WRONG

I hope that's clear enough for you, legalist.

"Luke is the sharper version of the parable, at least in regard to this; although they both have value and are in the Bible for a reason.

I'm sorry, but you are simply in error."

Yes, and he hath not "root in himself," because roots cannot grow into solid rock, just as Christ says in Luke. These types have not received salvation into their hearts.

According to Jesus you are absolutely, 100% WRONG. One received seed "ON" a rock, the other received seed "INTO" good ground. Only an idiot or a stubborn, foolish legalist would say they are both the same.

Or very possibly someone who is both.

If something did not take root, it obviously did not go inside of anything, and one must receive in the heart salvation, in order to be saved. Head knowledge of some of the Bible won't do it. The seed on the rock did not enter into the hearts of the people it represents, meaning they were never saved, and there is nothing you can do to change this truth.

God bless.

[ August 28, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

"Your misinterpretations, inspired by Satan, are not the Bible.

Nor are they an "authority."

The devil goeth about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

God bless."

Then apparently you can't read, as bad as you can't interpret.

However, for the record, Christ did state that some legalists were of the devil (John 8:44), so it is possible you also are. However, I prefer to be gracious until I know for certain, and I choose to hope that such ignorants as yourself are just the typical unlearned babes in Christ. They also are a real pain. Just read Paul.

God bless.

 

I said all three do so, Romans 8:9-11. And this is how:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him which raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." - Romans 8:9-11

The Trinity:

1) The Father = "Spirit of God;" "Spirit which raised up Christ from the dead;" "he that raised up Christ from the dead."

2) The Son = "Spirit of Christ;" "Christ."

3) The Holy Spirit = "Spirit;" "his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

All members of the Trinity are mentioned in this passage, and all are stated to be the same being; if you are able to discern this.

Actually, you not being able to discern the Trinity in that passage reveals you to be the one in error, and destroys your theory about me.

The Bible says the saved do not sin, and the Bible says the saved are indeed "perfected forever." If you are not able to believe it, then so be it, God has provided plenty of milk for the babes in Christ who are not yet able to bear meat.

I just told you. My name is Ruht. If you want my full name, I tend not to divulge that on Internet forums.

God bless.

 

Well yes, as a matter of fact I have. Which is why I know roots can't grown into solid rock.

Have you ever grown anything from seed, by chance?

Yes, you are very observant. However, while salvation indeed has a "root system," unless it goes into the heart of a person, then the person is not saved.

Let me know when you finally figure out this simple truth, or when your pride allows you to admit you are wrong.

Well yes, as a matter of fact I've even grown seed on top of soil.

Um, I don't know, it doesn't grow into a magical beanstalk that reaches up to the clouds where a giant lives, does it?!!

He's not using the one you are dishonestly trying to sell.

The birds can't get every seed. I have grown grass seed on top of soil, and they didn't get every seed.

Nice try, but your desperateness changes nothing. Christ said it landed ON rock, not in rock, and your connivance can't change that.

"No, it wasn't. and Luke clears that up. Are you calling Luke a lie?"

And I'm saying you are misinterpreting what Jesus, Matthew and Luke are saying, and I know you are.

Oh, I've made plenty of "headway," and any honest person can see it.

Actually, weeds (thorns) can prevent seed from even germinating. Weeds can produce toxins that can destroy the germinating process and prevent seeds from even taking root.

But of course I'm sure you knew that, you apparently being an expert on seeds and everything.

Did it say in grew into the soil? It said it "fell AMONG thorns." It did not say it entered into the soil.

It doesn't say that both "sprang out," it says the thorns sprang up. And even if the seed produced plants that "sprang up," does it say this plant took root into the soil? As I just told you, I have even grown seed on top of soil, which has actually germinated and sprouted on top of soil.

And as a matter of fact, I remember a person who glued rye grass on top of his automobile and watered it and drove around town with grass all over his car, without any of it being in any soil.

In fact, you can read about it here if you don't believe me:

http://www.driveonline.com/html/rotharchive_087.html

You don't even know how a person is saved, so how can you possibly test a spirit.

Test my Spirit, if you think you are capable. However, you have already failed the test.

God bless.

[ August 29, 2002, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]