Does the Catholic Church have no authority?

DHK replied, where I last said (given in italics):

Does the church, as Christ founded it, have authority, sir? What does it mean to "bind and loose," sir? Have you noticed the actions of the Church (the only one around for the first 1000 years of church history) with the heresies that sprung up? What happens to the disobedient brother per Matthew 18:18?

And you replied:

DHK, in those very early times, while Christ was among them and even when the church was not yet really established, there was only one local "assembly" of people, disciples, who were following Him, Christ.

They were the "acorn" from which, as the years go by and Christ had already ascended to the Father in heaven, would the mighty oak tree come to be! And yet they are still the same "assembly" which acquired the embellishment of the name "Catholic" somewhere around A.D. 100, that was to become even larger as the mission to "make disciples of all nations" per Matthew 28:19 finds success, that the "Mighty Oak" would come to be! And yes, being 2,000 years old, Holy Church had her scandals from the fallibility of her own clergy, even while the vast majority of them were good holy men and women who you seem to blithely ignore as irrelevant are so obviously present in literature and documentation.


The One holy Catholic and Apostolic "Assembly"!

You last said:

Remember all those epistles Paul wrote to those first churches, admonishing them, warning them, correcting them, but nowhere does he say going was a sin.

And I replied:

They were all local/regional churches who were a part of THE CHURCH! Christ established ONE church, not a multitude of churches all going their own ways and with their own doctrines, but ONE church!

DHK, I think all Christians acknowledge what Christ said in Matthew 16:18-19 is future tense (…Upon this rock I will (future tense) build my church…) and that indeed, her beginnings were at Pentecost. And indeed, the first church, the "acorn" I have been speaking of, was indeed local to Jerusalem. In other words, there was a time when THE CHURCH was merely a local church. After all, it had to start somewhere, didn't it?

And no, it was not quite "universal" yet, was it? Was it to stay that way, DHK, or was something dynamic to occur as the apostles (and their successors) were to "make disciples of all nations" in the command given to them by Christ in Matthew 28:19?

While THE CHURCH certainly a quite local "assembly," it was not to remain that way, was it? We soon were to have local/regional "assemblies" formed at Corinth, Thesaloniki and elsewhere, all local in and of themselves but certainly to teach and preach the same doctrines and gospel message of Jesus Christ, right, sir? And, in union with the first original "local assembly" in Jerusalem that formed at Pentecost, they are still THE CHURCH?

DHK, I am "audacious" enough to claim that this same beginnings, in consonance with the success of the commands of Matthew 28:19, that what was a "local assembly" in Jerusalem became the "Mighty Oak" we see growing throughout all of the first 1500 years of her growth, being the only church around (other then the unfortunate schism of the Orthodox Eastern Church) to the times of Luther in the 16th century!

I marvel at the success of the holy Spirit in doing such a thing!

And guess what, DHK, the name "Catholic" (which means "universal") did indeed, become an appropriate name, and indeed, the Catholic Church is "universal"! Today she is! At her beginnings, she was not, still in the form of the "acorn" of Christ's establishment and at Pentecost.

I last said:

Were they autonomous? If they were, Paul would have no authority to admonish them and correct them, just like the pope who refused King Henry VIIIth his divorce, thus setting the stage for the revolt of the Church in England to separate from the Church, the original Church, headquartered now in Rome.

If they were "autonomous" as you say, why does Paul still discipline them? He was their "founder" in those regions, you know, all teaching the same doctrines and the gospel of Jesus Christ, but unfortunately, later on, at the end of the apostolic era, we find one Clement of Rome disciplining the Corinthians once again.

What business was it of Clement anyway? Corinth was a far away regional church who had her own bishops to discipline them so why is Clement writing to them in a similar admonishment as Paul did? Because the bishops of the region came to Clement for direction and advise! Why? Because Clement was the 3rd successor to "the chair of Peter"! He was the Bishop of Rome! (Read his "Letter to the Corinthians" sometime and get the picture, DHK.) Interestingly, the Eastern Orthodox Church claims that they were always autonomous from the Bishop of Rome, but this letter put to route, that notion completely!

You get the idea Jesus, from His throne in heaven, knew what He was doing when He inspired Saul to stop "persecuting me" to be that very spear-head of what evangelization was all about and how it was to be done! I also note the successes in other parts of the world, Japan, South America, Africa, of the successors of Paul and the other apostles who went on in this grand mission.

And slowly, but steadily, THE CHURCH grew, from the "acorn" of it's beginning, to a sapling in it's youth, to the mighty oak it has become!

If he did not have authority over them, why did he keep writing to them? And likewise, why did a successor later one, Clement of Rome, write to the Corinthians again if he had no authority as you claim? Or are you going to claim that Clement was "meddling" in the affairs of the Corinthians where he had no business doing so?

Also, I am sure that excommunication in those times in Corinth involved a local bishop (overseer appointed by Paul, no doubt) that had this local authority to do as you say, just like my local bishop has authority here in his own diocese.

Unfortunately, those churches Paul admonished eventually separated from the Original Church as well - the Orthodox Schism circa A.D. 1000 - thus the Church in Corinth, Thessaloniki and Ephesus and other interesting places are now mostly Orthodox.

Oh, give me a break, DHK!

Or shall I also blame Clement, the 3rd successor to Peter, the pope, Bishop of Rome at the time, for the schism that ultimately occurred in Corinth and the rest of the Eastern church region long after he was dead and buried? Is he to blame for this as he also originated a Letter to the Corinthians as well, such as Paul earlier did?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

A "Baptist Church" in Corinth? I doubt it, but since Catholics and Orthodox are considered "fair game" by many Protestant/Fundamentalist missionaries, it would not really surprise me.

I got someone really upset with me in another forum when I complained about his church going into South America and treating the Catholic population there as "non-Christians." And I I were young enough, yet retired as I would have the means and could speak Spanish/Portuguese, I would love to go there and "hound" these missionaries in defense of the Catholic Faith!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


- Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.

 

A Christian,

Your statement, 'The Christian literally becomes the priest of the temple of his own body, which houses the very presence of God in the form of the Holy Ghost.'

Ray is saying, 'I don't think I have ever heard this concept linked together. It was beautifully stated and true to the Word of God. Just thought I had to let you know . . . Thanks for the spiritual nourishment and by your insight.

It is only natural that every Christian who is a priest unto the Lord God [Revelation 1:6] should commune with the great High Priest, meaning our Lord. [Hebrews 2:17; 3:1; 4:15] This is why Christians pray directly to Christ.

'For we have not an High Priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.'

 

WPutnam:

I Corinthians 5:15-17

Even though you have ten thousand guardians in
Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in
Christ I became your father through the gospel.
Therefore I urge you to imitate me. For this
reason I am sending you Timothy, my son whom I
love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind
you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which
agrees with what I teach everywhere in every
church.

Note: No mention of a pope Peter here. The
Corinthian church is urged to imitate the one
who brought them the salvation message PAUL.
(Pope Paul?)

I found it interesting the Saint Patrick is
considered among the Catholics as he was a
Celtic Christian long before the church of Rome
came in and established itself in Ireland and
came up with fable about the snakes.

Also, I enjoy reading your closings; however,
INEBRIATED has to be a Freudian slip, especially
with so many priests that end up needing to be
dried out.

 

As Peter opens his second epistle he shows his authority because he was an apostle among apostles, not because he was the pope. And in the first chapter verse fourteen he indicates that he will soon be dead. Having never mentioned that he was pope in either epistles, he must have had a short tenure as the first pope. Many theologians do not even believe he was ever in Rome, not even for a weekend visit.

 

Why must a pope be mentioned? My bishop could send out a newly ordained priest to a mission field, he being sort of a guardian for the young man, without mentioning the pope at all!

In my example, my bishop is sort of a "father" to the young man who goes off to his duty.

As a matter of fact, was not Patrick ordained a bishop that he himself was the very facilitator of the Catholic Faith in Ireland?

The story about snakes remains a pious fable and nothing else, and we Catholics know all about it!

No, as spiritual enebriation is almost from scripture, where the influence of the holy spirit is likened to one drunk on wine! As for priests, I don't think they exceed the national average on the excessive use of alcohol, it remaining a sinful excess as many excesses do.

And if you eat too many potatoes is sinful as well...

You like my "tag lines" do you? Then I will apply another rather long one at the end of this message.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, have mercy on us.
LORD, have mercy on us.
CHRIST, hear us.
CHRIST, graciously hear us.
GOD, THE FATHER OF HEAVEN, have mercy on us.
GOD THE SON, REDEEMER OF THE WORLD, have mercy on us.
GOD THE HOLY GHOST, have mercy on us.
HOLY TRINITY, ONE GOD, have mercy on us.
HOLY MARY, pray for us.
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, pray for us.
HOLY VIRGIN OF VIRGINS, pray for us.
ST. MICHAEL, pray for us.
ST. GABRIEL, pray for us.
ST. RAPHAEL, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY ANGELS AND ARCHANGELS, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY ORDERS OF BLESSED SPIRITS, pray for us.
ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST, pray for us.
ST. JOSEPH, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS, pray for us.
ST. PETER, pray for us.
ST. PAUL, pray for us.
ST. ANDREW, pray for us.
ST. JAMES, pray for us.
ST. JOHN, pray for us.
ST. THOMAS, pray for us.
ST. JAMES, pray for us.
ST. PHILIP, pray for us.
ST. BARTHOLOMEW, pray for us.
ST. MATTHEW, pray for us.
ST. SIMON, pray for us.
ST. THADDEUS, pray for us.
ST. BARNABAS, pray for us.
ST. LUKE, pray for us.
ST. MARK, pray for us.
ST. PATRICK, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY APOSTLES AND EVANGELIST, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY DISCIPLES OF OUR LORD, pray for us.
ALL YE HOLY INNOCENTS, pray for us.
BE MERCIFUL, spare us, O Lord!
BE MERCIFUL, graciously hear us, O Lord!
FROM ALL EVIL, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM ALL SIN, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THY WRATH, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM A SUDDEN AND UNPROVIDED DEATH, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THE DECEITS OF THE DEVIL, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM ANGER, HATRED, AND ALL ILL WILL, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THE SPIRIT OF FORNICATION, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM LIGHTNING AND TEMPEST, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM THE SCOURGE OF EARTHQUAKE, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM PESTILENCE, FAMINE, AND WAR, O Lord, deliver us.
FROM EVERLASTING DEATH, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THE MYSTERY OF THY HOLY INCARNATION, O Lord, Deliver us.
THROUGH THY COMING, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY NATIVITY, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY BAPTISM AND HOLY FASTING, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY CROSS AND PASSION, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY DEATH AND BURIAL, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THY HOLY RESURRECTION, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THINE ADMIRABLE ASCENSION, O Lord, deliver us.
THROUGH THE COMING OF THE HOLY GHOST, THE PARACLETE, O Lord, deliver us.
IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, We Sinners beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST SPARE US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST PARDON US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO BRING US TO TRUE PENANCE, We Beseech Thee hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GOVERN AND PRESERVE THY HOLY CHURCH.... We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO PRESERVE OUR APOSTOLIC PRELATE AND ALL ECCLESIASTICAL ORDERS IN HOLY RELIGION. We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO HUMBLE THE ENEMIES OF THY HOLY CHURCH, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE PEACE AND TRUE CONCORD TO CHRISTIAN KINGS AND PRINCES, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GRANT PEACE AND UNITY TO ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO BRING BACK TO THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH ALL THOSE WHO HAVE STRAYED AWAY, AND LEAD TO THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL ALL UNBELIEVERS, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO CONFIRM AND PRESERVE US THY HOLY SERVICE, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST LIFT UP OUR MINDS TO HEAVENLY DESIRES, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST RENDER ETERNAL BLESSINGS TO ALL OUR BENEFACTORS, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST DELIVER OUR SOULS AND THOSE OF OUR BRETHREN, RELATIVE, AND BENEFACTORS FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE AND PRESERVE THE FRUITS OF THE EARTH, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE TO GIVE ETERNAL REST TO ALL THE FAITHFUL DEPARTED, We beseech Thee, hear us.
THAT THOU WOULDST VOUCHSAFE GRACIOUSLY TO HEAR US, We beseech Thee, hear us.
SON OF GOD, We beseech Thee, hear us.
LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Spare us, O Lord.
LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Graciously hear us, O Lord
LAMB OF GOD, WHO TAKEST AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, Have mercy on us.
CHRIST, HEAR US.......
CHRIST, GRACIOUSLY HEAR US.......
LORD, HAVE MERCY ON US.......
CHRIST, HAVE MERCY ON US.......
LORD, HAVE MERCY ON US.......

- The Litany of Saints -

 

http://www.catholic.com/library/Was_Peter_in_Rome.asp

God bless,

PAX

Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

It has never mattered to me if Peter was in Rome
or not. Christ gave to His Apostles the job of
establishing His Church and being a witness of
Christ.

This they did and the Holy Spirit brought to
their memories the things Christ did and said
so that the New Testament could be written.

I as a Christian have the power to bind and
loose. I bind when I withold my testamony
and I loose when I witness to neighbors and
friends and people I meet. I have the power
to keep my mouth shut or behave as everyone else
and try to blend in. That binds up the Gospel
message.

As for Catholic priests, it seems sad to me if
they are average. I would expect them to be
Christians----one should see a difference
in act and deed and it shouldn't stop with the collar.

Rome may speak and I do listen but actions speak
so much louder then words...

 

And Christ made Peter His "Chief apostle" per Matthew 16:18-19!

But if this does not matter to you, why are you replying to this message?

Yep! And together, the apostles formed the "charter clergy" of the Church Christ founded that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against (it)." Cool huh?

Show me your certificate of ordination to the Episcopal fullness of the Catholic priesthood, sir. Christ gave that power to His apostles and to their successors, not to the everyday lay person.

Else, give me an example of YOU exercising this power.

You call that a power? Even pagans can do that, sir!

Of course I do not consider them as "average" but insofar as the sins they are constantly being pinged upon, statistics that they are no worse then the average, mostly being below the average of frequency of the abuses you are thinking of. And at least on a par with Protestant clergy, so far as I can see.

Indeed! And out of all the misdeeds you perhaps wish to dwell upon with some glee, I suggest you investigate the thousands of good and holy men and women of the church who are examples to us all!

One of them is given in my "tagline" below...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

- St. Therese of Avila -

 

Hey I think I finally got it right! Thanks for your help in strightening me out W Putnam.

Peter was a fisherman. Paul was a tentmaker.

An example of that ordination within the Catholic Church was Dr. Martin Luther

Yes, I know of some great men and women in the Catholic Church. A number of them I have had in Bible Study over the years have told me plenty of times that they do not agree with a number of the Catholic doctrines and are staying in there to make some change. I don’t know of one of them who agrees with everything the Catholic Church teaches when I have pressed them on it. Over the years I have met priests who feel the same way. It doesn’t even seem practical to say the RCC doctrine represents all of the RCC. people. It didn’t when Martin Luther wrote his 95 theses and it does not now.

RCC doctrine has even changed since the NT was made part of the canon.

Have you actually ever thought about how much the arguments of the RCC are almost alike the Mormon Church. Perhaps you do know there have been cases where an RCC church has worshiped with a Mormon Church. The RCC has its infallible pope and the Mormon Church has its infallible prophet/apostle. When the pope and prophet he speaks from God and it is right never to be disputed. When you question a Mormon they say it is right because the prophet has spoken and it is from God. When you ask someone from the RCC they simply say the pope has spoken and it can’t be wrong.

But Acts 17:11 was written to lay people and it reads, “Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily [to see] whether these things were so.” The people examined the scriptures to see if what the speaker was saying was true or not. Paul commended them for this. why shouldn’t the average person do the same?

1 John 4:1 says, “4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

Those verses were written to churches not the pope. The churches were comprised of everyday people who were trying to make a living like everyone else today.

The idea of the separation of clergy and laity never really existed until the fourth century.

Take a look at 1 Cor 14:27-33. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

In this passage there is more than one person speaking. These are people from the congregation.

 

W Putnam,

Thanks for giving me a reference for what you believe.

You said, 'Rome has spoken, case is closed.' I think this was a quote from Augustine.

We have a paper pope and it is the Bible the living Word of God. If you want to know truth study the Bible. The Lord will have little use for any of our traditions when we stand before Him. The Bible is inspired and has been give to us by He--Himself via holy men of God. May statement is:

'The Bible has spoken; the case is open. It is open for our understanding a growth in His faith.

 

Hey I think I finally got it right! Thanks for your help in strightening me out W Putnam.

Peter was a fisherman. Paul was a tentmaker.</font>[/QUOTE]Their former jobs...

Yes, he was an ordained Catholic Priest, of the Augustin Order, I believe. Did you say "Dr."?

I have heard of a few of them myself, and I believe they are in grave danger of loosing their Catholic faith, if it has not yet happened already.

Were the issues over a married priesthood?

Artificial birth Control?

What?

In my 50 years as a Catholic, I have yet to meet the first priest of the sort you speak of here. In fact, most of those I have been acquanted with were quite orthodox in their thinking and beliefs.

Where are your statistics? So far as I can acertain, I would say that most Catholics agree with and follow the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

Christ's church has always had dissenters, even in His own day, immediately after the end of the apostolic era with one heresy after another, down to the present day. So what else is new?

Show me one Catholic Church doctrine that has been "changed," sir.

Can the Mormon Church trace her history back to Christ Himself? Can they document themselves in history with and illustrious string of early church fathers as the Catholic Church can?

And that question applies to not only the Mormon Church, but to ALL Christian churches who stand outside of the Catholic Church!

Please explain. I have seen Catholics pray with Protestants all the time! Would you allow me to pray with you if I were to come over to your house?

But the Mormon Church cannot prove her infallibility; the Catholic Church can!

Which of the two individuals is right, sir? Which one do you believe? And which one can trace the authority they possess back to Christ Himself?

What prophet? Did he come from the same place those so called "golden plates of the book of Mormon" (I think it is) came from? Saying so does not make it so unless there is considerable historical back-up to the founder of Christianity itself - Jesus Christ.

Wrong about what? That the pope thinks Pepto Bismo is good for the stomach, or that Christ rose on the third day?

Do you really understand what papal infallibiity is all about? Do you understand that doctrine, sir?

Escuse me but you are both right and wrong. Of course it was written for the lay people in that they form the bulk of all believers, but in those days, I doubt if 1% of them could even READ! Therefore, it was also written to the clergy who could read so that it could then be read to the people and explained to them.

That is why today, it is "tradition" to have quotes from scripture read at every Catholic Mass!

Spoken to the people through their own clergy, who could read and explain it to them!

Of course they were not written to the pope (a name not coined yet until after the end of the apostolic era) simply because Peter did not need such instructions, but rather Peter himself also wrote letters! After all, he was an apostle, right?

The separation was immediate! How? Because Christ choose 12 apostles! They were the "Charter clergy" of the Church, given great authority within the Church Christ founded, that the lay faithful could receive and believe in the gospel of Christ!

I am not sure what you are trying to prove here, but such charisma was quite common in all of the Christians at tht time, lay or clergy. But few had the power to heal a sickness, and Peter was one of them, so far as I can tell.

Yep! The Catholic Church has had them as well.

Read the story of Therese Neumann. A lay woman who could speak in authentic tongues, live without normal food, other then a daily reception of the holy Eucharist for years, and best of all, bore the wounds of Christ on her feet, hands, sides, and the wounds around her head from the crown of thorns!

You should read of her life! And there are others, many of them priests, a bishop or two, even a pope or two, and plenty of lay persons who had some special charisma from God that will boggle the mind!

I am reminded of a little girl who had her experiences at Lourdes, France. I also think of the three children at Fatima, Portugal, and one little humble man, an indian, who became a Christian and took the name Juan Diego, also a lay person. Their experiences will amaze you!

Go to my profile, click on my web site URL and then the tile that says "Catholic Apologetics" and then read "My Story." I go into a little more detail there...

Shoot fire, I'll simply give you the URL here:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/p/wputnam3/My%20Story.htm

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Not riches, but God.
Not honors, but God.
Not distinction, but God.
Not dignities, but God.
Not advancement, but God.
God always and in everything.

- St. Vincent Pallotti -

 

You are quite welcome...

That was my "tagline." I have several of them, and in this particular one, I mentioned that it was from Augustine's Sermon.

Actually, it is a contraction of what Augustine said, it being quite longer then the statement I posted.

Where was this "Paper pope" between Pentecost and the time ink first touched papyrus (or parchment) in the writing of the New Testament, Ray?

Sorry, but I do not claim to have the holy Spirit on my shoulder, whispering into my ear as to exactly what the precise interpretation of scripture is. And it is quite apparent that Protestantism does not either, the diversity of interpretations is a tragedy before us...

But Augustine is a bit older then you are! Amd I believe he know a lot more what he was talking about then you (and me too!)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

W Putnam,

You said, 'Where was this "Paper pope" between Pentecost and the time ink first
touched papyrus (or parchment) in the writing of the New Testament, Ray?

Ray is saying, 'As you probably know most scholars believe that St. Mark was the earliest of the Gospels and is dated between 50-70 A.D. In other words, before Mark's death he had to have written this book.

We do have record of the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter two.

Ray said, If you want to know truth study the Bible. The Lord will have little use for any of our traditions when we stand before Him. The Bible is inspired and has been give to us by He--Himself via holy men of God.

Putnam said, 'Sorry, but I do not claim to have the holy Spirit on my shoulder, whispering into my ear as to exactly what the precise interpretation of scripture is.

Ray is saying, 'My brother, if you have sincerely received Christ into your life and if you love Him you have Him in a more strategic place than on your shoulder; He lives in your heart and life. The youngest apostle, the Apostle John said in I John 2:27, 'But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.' The Holy Spirit is our Teacher as we compare one Scripture with other ones.'

Putnam said, 'And it is quite apparent that Protestantism does not either, the diversity of
interpretations is a tragedy before us...

Ray is saying, 'Our churches build their congregations/denominations around different portions of the Word of God. The Church of the Nazarene builds their churches around the holiness of God and the need of sanctification in the lives of its members. The Baptist's build their beliefs around the sovereignty of God and of the security we can have knowing that we have everlasting life. The Assembly of God people build their faith around the emphasis on the Holy Spirit or the gifts of the Spirit.

Each of these denominations believe in the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, Salvation, Sanctification, Original Sin, the Miracles of Christ, the Second Coming of Christ, Heaven and Hell, and so on. All major doctrines we know to be in the Bible among the Nazarenes, Baptists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Lutherans and other denominations. I am sure that all Catholics believe in the doctrines stated above.

The pope does not run as 'tight a ship' as you suggest. You have your Orthodox theology, Liberation/Socialistic theology, Liberal theology and then you have mega doctrines that are not to be found in the Bible. But then you do not need that authority when you have the ex cathedras of the popes and their add-on theology as the decades pass. If your church would not hold over the souls of the faithful the possibility of withholding the sacrament of the Body and blood of our Lord, and possibly Hell, you would have different denominations within Catholicism. Our brethren know they have eternal life through faith alone, and we cannot and would not threaten them with nonsense like sending them to destruction. Only the Lord can do that. [John 5:22b]

Ray said, 'The Bible has spoken; the case is open. It is open for our understanding a growth in His faith.'

Putnam said, 'But Augustine is a bit older then you are!

Ray is saying, what does age have to do with anything. Let me inform you that St. Augustine never even looked a the Greek alphabet; in other words he did not know the Greek language. He did know Latin. I took two years of Greek in Bible College and know how to mine out the truth that I am looking for as I study. Augustine mixed the philosophy of Plato and other men who did not even know the God of the Bible. I would not color him in as a spiritually brilliant man. The philosophy of men and the understanding of God do not mix. [Colossians 2:8] Augustine picked up a lot of his austere ideas about God from these secular philosophers and came up with what is today the some what known Five Points of Calvinism. Calvin copied them from Augustine. And before you tell me this I will let you know that Roman Catholicism today is more Arminian in theology than in the Dark Ages of Augustine. He was not as alert to truth as most of our theologians today. Some brilliant men are Dr. Walvoord of Dallas Seminary and the late Dr. Van Til -I think from Westminister Theological Seminary.

Putnam said, 'Amd I believe he know a lot more what he was talking about then you (and me too!)

Ray is saying, 'Augustine knew some things that helped enlighten Catholicism, but he was not the brightest star in the theological world. Keeping humility in mind, I know more about the things of God than St. Augustine. While I am still learning, I too, have a Th.D. in theological studies and do not contradict myself when instructing people. I am sure that Augustine knew things I do not and I am sure that I know things that he did not realize either. You know things that I have not heard and I understand things that you have not received into your faith at this point in time. I think that is why the Lord leaves us here so we can learn from each other. Would you agree with this last sentence?

Augustine, for his times, taught some wonderful things, but he also brought in much, much error that has rubbed off on many Catholics and other people like Reformed Baptists. His great influence has affected more Christians of all denominations than perhaps any other man in time. It's our job to know his errors and to welcome his truth.

 

OK................and...........

When did Mark die? Of course, he would have had to have written his gospel before he died!

Before he wrote it, where was the "paper pope"?

Acts is indeed, a record of the things sthat have occurred before it was written. Where was the "paper pope" before it was written?

Where did Christians turn to for this truth before the New Testament waw written. A "paper pope" or who?

Yeppers! Indeed, I did say that...

How do you know that, Ray? I mean, really know that? There are thousands of preachers, all claiming to have found the truth in scriptures, yet all teaching and preaching a different gospel.

Or is the Holy Spirit the third person in the Trinity who is a "spirit of confusion"?

Then how do the heresies come about, Bob, if by what you read from John is a guarantee that the holy Spirit whispers in the ears of your guys the absolute truth without a constant and continuous cohesion within their group (the apostles) that they maintain the truth they claim? I have little doubt that the apostles disagreed in doctrine - in their case, I think the holy Spirit was quite active. But as time went on, beyond the apostolic era, false prophets arose, sincerely thinking they had the truth, yet were in serious error.

The apostle John, an eyewitness to Jesus Christ Himself, is one thing, but for Ray Berrian (as well as myself) who may think they know the truth, must always compare what they think with some central core of truth. I wouls suggest the magisterium of the Catholic Church, she being the only church to trace her history back to Christ Himself. The bible alone is obviously not a good source by the witness of the results: total confusion of what the Bible teaches!

Why not find that church who has build herself around ALL of the things you have mentioned and has done this from the time of Pentecost?

Nice going, Ray, but you have also glossed-over the very disunity, such diverse churches present. In my town, there are four churches on evey corner of a given city block! One teaches that baptism saves (is a part of the salvation process that is necessary) while another has not baptized in years! One teaches the real presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist and another does not. Where is the unity, Ray? There is a multitude of "shephards" each teaching a different gospel message, where Christ said there will be "one flock and one shephard."

But some churches do not believe in the Trinity!

And all of those you mentioned do not believe in the real presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist either! Yet that was universally believed for the first 1500 years of church history!

And none of the churches you mention forbid artificial birth control, whereas in 1930, they stood tall, shoulder to shoulder with the Catholic Church as condemning it as a perverse evil!

Thank God there are indeed, many things we hold in common belief! But the "devil is in the details" when we get down to the nitty gritty, doesn't it?

I am still looking for that "paper pope" you spoke about.

The Orthodox are in schism and are not "in union with Rome," therefore, they are not, at the present time, a part of "Ship's company." An Americal admiral cannot command the ships of the Russian Navy!

As for "mega doctrines" you claim are not in the bible, you fall into the trap of insisting that all things must be "biblical." Because the Trinity is not specific in scripture (strongly implied of course) is it scriptural as a term? The doctrine of the RAPTURE is certainly not specified in scripture, being derived by interpretation, right? What makes you believe it is a correct doctrine? (Not knowing if you believe in that or not...)

Do you know the last time a pope spoke "ex cathadra," Ray? Do you have any idea how seldom this is done?

The Church insists upon a uniformity of belief which is obvious, as there can only be one truth. If a person sins greviously, the Eucharist is withheld simply becaus it would be a sacrilage to knowing give the Eucharist to a serious sinner, known scandalously in public. (The bishop of Sacramento, I understand, has instructed his parishes to withhold the Eucharist from the governor of California because of his public stance on abortion.)

Do you actually think the Catholic Church sends people to distruction? Withholding the Eucharist is a discipline, a "wake-up call" if you will, that an individual has got to get back to the teachings of Christ else, he will indeed be in danger of being condemned. But the Church herself cannot condemn anyone - ony the human heart in disobedience can do that.

Where is your "paper pope" between Pentecost and when ink first touched papyrus in the writing of the New Testament, Ray?

Are you serious? You actually put Augustine down?

And by the way, was is wrong with the phhilosophy of Plato? Because he was a pagan makes his thoughts and conclusions total error? Is it not possible for a non-Christiann to know of some truth?

Colossians speaks of a "seductive philosophy which does not disregard philosophy itself as a product of the mind of man. And I take serious exception with your conclusion that "philosophy and the understanding of God does not mix." Indeed, it is the philosophy of man that he can FIND GOD!

That is not to say that philosophy is fool proof; it certainly is not. But the mind of man intuitively knows of the natural law. Did you study that in your bible college? You do realize that we know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, right, Ray? And of course, that does not mean that such knowledge has us obey those laws, as we certainly do not, noting the guilty who murder, rape, torture, steal, yet in their hearts, know it is wrong (which makes them guilty, of course!)

And by the way, your conclusion that Augustine somehow "invented" Calvinism is one I have encountered before. A full study of Augustine, the last time I looked, throughly refutes such a conclusion.

Boy, you are all hepped-up on Augustine, from a simple "tagline" I presented at the end of my last message! WOW! Who was brighter then Augustine, may I ask? What do you think of St. Thomas Aquinas, who incidently was the guy who thought of the existence of the natural law and explained it far beyond my comprehension, my giving you only an over-simplified example.

And I am still looking for that "paper pope" you were going to explain to me.........

What error?

Where is this "paper pope" you spoke about?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

And ALL GOD's people said AMEN!

 

Those that see the CHURCH is about authority,
control & influence focus on the small pebble.

Those that see the CHURCH is about teaching the
Word, discipling, and fellowship see the boulder.

Matthew 16:13-20

 

Well, to continue in your thought here, I hope I see the Church more like a mountain.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Matthew 18:17

 

Your little word play falls apart when you consider that Jesus named him Cephas, which is a transliteration of Kephas (rock).

http://www.geocities.com/okc_catholic/articles/cephas.html

Perhaps if you drew upon historical Christianity instead of puns for your theology, you would find truth.

 

Good link! Good source of good Catholic stuff to add to my "favorites" list!

Good job, T2U!!!!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

- St. Therese of Avila -

 

Not really, there are two forms of the Greek
word for rock used. Greek is a very subtle
language. Also, one must use the Bible to
understand the Bible and not PERSONAL interpretation. Now look again at Matthew 16:13-20
in LIGHT of the following:

I Corinthians 3:11
I Corinthians 10:4
Matthew 21:42
Psalms 117:21, 23
Romans 9:33
I Peter 2:4-8
Act 4:11-12
Psalm 18:2
Psalm 94:22
Psalm 78:35
Psalm 28:1
Psalm 31:2-3
Psalm 41:10
Psalm 61:2
Psalm 62:6-8
Psalm 92:15
Psalm 95:1
Psalm 118:22-23
Isaiah 28:16
Deuteronomy 32:3-4
Deuteronomy 32:15,18
II Samuel 22:2