To Seventh Day Adventists

Good questions pb! Excellent OP.

 

Yes! You will be judged my friend.

2Cor 5 FOR WE MUST ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

And IF you have truly accepted Christ as your savior AND are born-again and are "By the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8 -- "THEN are you the children of God".

And IF that is the case THEN as Daniel 7 says - when that future judgment happens "JUDGMENT is passed IN FAVOR of the saints"...

And AS Paul says in Rom 2:13-16 of the gentiles who live in utter darkness but some of whom are open to the Holy Spirit and yield to his leading, themselves "hungering and thirsting" for truth - then on "the day when According to My Gospel God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus" Rom 8:16 you will stand.

But that is a big "IF" -- if in fact your main sense of pride is in the degree to which you turn from obedience to what you find in the Word of God. For Christ HIMSELF said "NOT everyone who SAYS LORD LORD will enter the kingdom of heaven..." Matt 7.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello pinoybaptist. When you die, you will most certainly not go to heaven. You will be asleep in the grave, until Christ returns, and then what happens will be up to him. You will either be raised from the dead and go to heaven with Christ and all the saved from the beginning, or you will remain in the grave and be a part of the second resurrection, and second death. You do not want to take part in either of the latter.

If you read your bible and pray, then you will not be ignorant of the scriptures. That point is moot. Observe the following.


Matt 10:38-39 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


Matt 16:24-25 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Luke 9:23-24 23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


1 Cor 1:18 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


Gal 6:14-15 14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


Phil 2:5-11 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Heb 12:1-8 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

You wish to trifle over the intricacies of justification, and sanctification. The question is, would you be a bastard, or would you be a son of God? Let each person diligently study the scriptures, and learn for themselves , what it means to take up the cross and follow the Lord Jesus Christ. For He is the author, and finisher of the faith. Do you want to be like God’s Son, or not? If so, doesn’t that mean making some changes in your life? Unless of course, you think that you are already like the son of God. If not, then like the rest of us, God has some work to do in your life. May the Lord bless.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

#1. Did you think I WROTE Romans 8??? I did not.
#2. Are you asking this about the text in Romans 8:13-15? -- Please quote it and show what you question.

No. I refer to vs 21 and 22 as follows


21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

If you followed my quote above - I 'Show' in 2Cor 5 and in Daniel 7 that the saints are to be judged. You ASK "will I be judged?"

I answer "yes".

I then show the Word of God in BOTH OT and NT stating that the saints will be judged.

This is the easy part.

Are you referring to Romans 8 or Matt 7 ? Or is it Romans 2:13-16? Which one?

No need. Justification is an act of God Himself.

When Paul speaks of being Justified - it is God in Romans 2 - that does it. Please read the text carefully.

Is that your interpretation of Romans 2:13-16??

How do you get that?

Turn "from" - I was simply making note of your starting list and your implied idea that you think the word of God speaks negatively about all those things - but you glory in turning "from" it.

Or ... what made you pick "that list"? Something you read?

So... He was "wrong"?? Is that your summation of the Matt 7 text?

Many saints do that very thing.

I will make it easy for you...

I would say that although I have no way of knowing how genuine your initial repentance was -you need to stay in prayer and Bible study and let the Lord continue to lead you away from sin and toward the light of the Gospel.

As Paul states "No temptation has overtaken you but such is common to man and God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able - but will with the temptation provide the way of escape".

In answer to your question -- "judged about what" - notice what PAUL says in 2Cor 5 Judged to "Give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be GOOD or EVIL".

Are you aware of what the Bible says about the "judgment for Evil deeds" Pinoybaptist?

Never the less -- Take courage brother.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Now I have debated Bob extensively on this, here (And Keith would occasionally come in with his comments), but in all fairness, it is highly unfair to question SDA's on the Sabbath as if it contradicts salvation by faith. And the the PB's are the LAST ones to be doing this, with all the rules (biblical and unbiblical) they have! We could turn the questions right back on you.
If we use instruments in worship, or [gasp] those dreaded contemporary styles, are we saved?
If keeping the Sabbath in itself is adding works of the Law and contradicting faith alone, then must one keep Sunday to be saved? (at least the seventh day was clearly listed as one of the commandments!)
And all those other things you mentioned-- Tobacco, drinking, gambling, movies, parties and dances-- haven't the PB's been the strictest against those? I've even heard them say suprise parties are wrong, because it is "lying" (pretending nothing is going on). And don't they say all "joking" is wrong?
Of course, you may say "well, I don't say they are not saved, but they are wrong and disobedient". Well that is all the SDA's say regarding the Sabbath. I may disagree that it is still binding, but I have seen where many who preach against them assume they are adding "works", while they themselves do the same things and worse with other practices.

 

I do not wish to debate all the above- However, I do have one serious question for all of you who think of all past born again Christians are in heaven- That is simply not yet true. Then answer why the bible speaks in no uncertain terms of a resurrection. Think on this. There would be no need for a resurrection if everyone who has gone on before are all up in heaven. Sure there are texts where people get that idea- yet We have God's word that Christ is the resurrection. Then if there be no resurrection- then Christ would have died in vain. No my friends-- there are no saints in heave at this time. They all sleep until that last trump shall wake them and we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye. I know-- Even theologians have been teaching for centuries that Enoch is in Heaven- that God took him.. There are other texts that have many confused- Read the 11th Chapter of Hebrews over and over again until you believe what Paul is telling you. He includes Enoch in first 5 verses of that chapter-among all those whom he said "they all died" I am not going to quote scripture to you- I am simply asking you to read it all over again. Revelation 4th makes in know that it was a vision that was seen concerning the 4 and twenty elders- It was a future event - Not yet happened. Also The mount of Transfiguration- Christ told Peter and John- This is a vision you have seen. So they did not really see the real Moses-or Elijah, yet it was a vision. In one of the Gospels- it plainly says it was a vision. SO my friends, in view of these remarks, it is plain to see that there is no one in heaven at this moment. Signed by your Brother with a really radical view when compared with the vast majority of Christianity. Dewey Just re-read Heb 11th chapter.

 

Then one other point. Someone is sure to say "well what about Elijah. My Friends, haven't you ever seen a Twister or Tornado-or Cyclone- Sure, God lifted him up in what appeared to be a chariot of fire. The school of prophets with Elisha wanted to go and look for him as they underestood he had not gone to the heaven where God dwells. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter almost ten years after this incident that Elijah wrote to a King of Judah" Elijah was the prophet to Israel-remember- not to the Tribes of Judah yet there is that disturbing letter that told this king what would befall him shortly because he had not walked in the way of his fathers. enough-- It is all recorded- but Whever the confusion has been is there were two kings at the same time with the same name and they were cousins.Maybe it isn't fair to say all these things without given Scriptural sources. If you are curious enough- then perhaps you will search it out. Sincerely Dewey

 

• Obviously you've never seen me dance.

 

I would very much appreciate the SDA view on the following theses:

1. Objectively speaking, without any reference to an individual sinner's attitude toward Christ's sacrifice, purely on the basis of God's verdict, every sinner, whether he knows it or not, whether he believes it or not, has received the status of a saint.
2. After Christ's intervention and through Christ's intervention, God regards all sinners as guilt-free saints.
3. When God reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, He individually pronounced forgiveness to each individual sinner whether that sinner ever comes to faith or not.
4. At the time of the resurrection of Christ, God looked down in hell and declared Judas, the people destroyed in the flood, and all the ungodly, innocent, not guilty, and forgiven of all sin and gave unto them the status of saints.

 

Pinoy, you're totally misunderstanding my stance and my whole point.
You keep talking about "join your denomination and worship on the day your denomination teaches" and questioning of salvation, and imposing things. Who here has said anything like that?
You are the one assuming that the SDA's say one must be apart of their group and worship on the Sabbath to be saved, apparently because of a widespread belief that keeping the seventh day is necessarily going back to the Law, and then you see them denouncing Sunday as false and disobedient. But I have studied their doctrine enough to know that they do not believe Sunday keepers are lost, and neither those who live unhealthily. Bob has denied that. "Will they consider one who does these things a truly born again child of God?" The answer is YES. "Disobedient", to be sure, but yes stil saved.

So I then point to some of the practices of your denomination, which you believe are the pure original Christianity, and people often denounce other practices such as music as being unscriptural. You then retort that your group does not deny anyone's salvation for those things, and that you don't "impose" anything on outsiders, and that if I want to do such and such in church, then it is our business; but then that was precisely my point! If Primitives can have these teachings and criticize others without actually denying their salvation or imposing them, then why can't you believe that the SDA's can do the same?
It seems to me, that it is because people see the Sabbath as too restrictive a rule, and thus indelibly tied to the Law (legalism) and thus denying salvation by faith, and rejected in the NT. But then I mentioned PB "rules" that to me are at best the same type of thing, and at worst, do not even have the status of being apart of the Law like the Sabbath. You think it is the right practice, but agree to disagee with others who do not practice it. The SDA's are the same way.

You may say that some statements by Bob and especially Keith sound like they are denying salvation to all others, or lead to that if taken to their logical conclusion, and I can agree with that, but that is the way such disagreements often sound. PB statements against others' practices, including music and gambling also could lead one to believe that. In the latter case, since that is clearly condemned in scripture as you noted, then one could truly question someone for going against a clear teaching of scripture. I have argued with Bob and the other lawkeepers, that they are accusing the rest of Christendom of, essentially, "living in sin/disobedience" by rejecting one of the Ten Commandments. I compared it to someone openly living in adultery, or idolatry, or lying, stealing or killing (If we break one, we break them all). That is not spoken well of in the New Testament. If it is sin, then it IS "deeds of the flesh", because sin comes from our nature, called "the flesh", whether it is a "fleshy tempatation", or a willful violation of the Law. (whether we are "justified" by it or not) He responded just as he did here that no, he does still accept us as saved, though disobedient. I understand that and accept it as his genuine feelings, but my point was to try to show him where his logic may lead. But you seem to be outright accusing him of denying salvation. This I am pointing out as unfair, because once again, if all the rest of Christendom is really disobedient on the issues PB's speak out on, then your logic too is just like theirs. They say the Sunday will be the Mark of the Beast, when the Antichrist rises, and the issue is made clear. (not now). So likewise, Primitives and other conservative Baptists and Reformed types often say the same things about the stuff they criticize in the contemporary Church, and how this or that will be the final apostasy.

And then people think that saying people can be saved without beliving in Christ challenges the very heart of the Gospel, and "clear scripture", as both Calvinists and Arminians have shown you in that forum. I don't hear them denying your salvation, though it may sound like it when they stress belief in salvation through "no other name" than Christ to be an essential "fundamental", and interpret the PB position as denying it.
And you and a couple of the other PB's have certainly come close to questioning the salvation of Arminians (in general, careful not to mention names there) for their "stubbornness", or whatever, for denying your ideas of unconditional election, or all the stuff about "the weak god who does not actually save", "saving ones self by the work of turning from their sin", (both of which, to me preclude salvation, if the person really believes like that) "rejecting clear scripture", etc.
That's why I spoke of being "strict" on things. "strictness" on an issue in others is perceived as "am I still saved" (in their view if I do not follow them)?, and often we do say things in a way that puts people on such a defensive (especially in heated discussions); so you accuse the SDA's of questioning your salvation, but then someone can accuse you of the same things, even though you deny it.

Well, I guess there are many different degrees of separatism in the Primitive Baptist movement. I have seen some, both online and elsewhere, condemn those other things as sin. (And I have never known the SDA's to be against dancing and movies. Perhaps earlier on, but they like other have eased up on those types of rules. PB's are the ones more likely to still hold on to them).

 

Not something I have seen in scripture. In every case scripture reserves the term for church members. (USually living ones - btw)

So... no universalism here.

No. That is Justification and justification is by faith - not by birhdate. You must believe in Christ as your savior to be justified.

So... no universalism here.

Nope.

"IF we confess our sins He IS faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleans us from all unrighteousness" -- 1John 1:9

So... no universalism here.

Nope.

"For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and then comes judgment" ...

So no redemption from the lake of fire - if you have not chosen salvation is this life - you are "toast" ...

No universalism here "again".

I guess you see a pattern here eh?

In Christ,

Bob

 

hmmm... how about that!

You seem to be pretty confused here. Jesus is the "God man" He is fully God and fully man. God the Father was pleased that God the Son chose (of His own free will of course) to "Empty Himself" and take on the nature of mankind.

It is odd that you would be confused on this point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan wrote:

Nope. I said I was "saving you the trouble" since you seemed to be on a mission of seeing how far awy you could get from the walk of Paul and of Christ "without actually being lost".

I simply drew a line FURTHER out than you were drawing "so it would be clear" that although I could not judge the initial conversion or salvation of that person - I would still encourage them to "Press on to know the Lord" and continue their growth by ongoing Bible study ( ... maybe reading 1Cor 6 for example)

In Christ,

Bob