VIRGIN MARY

Neither does the Catholic Bible.

As far as perpetual virginity of Mary:
While dying on the cross, Jesus gave his mother to St. John (John 19:27). Why didn't He give her to one of her other children (as Protestants insist she had) instead? Jewish law would have demanded it. It is simply because Mary had no other children for Him to do so.

FOR ANYONE TO SAY THAT MARY HAD OTHER CHILDREN IS
A DIRECT INSULT TO GOD THE FATHER, WHO SENT HIS ANGEL, GABRIEL, TO PROCLAIM TO HER, AND ONLY TO HER, "HAIL, FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD IS WITH THEE. BLESSED ART THOU AMONG WOMEN".

FOR ANYONE TO SAY THAT MARY HAD OTHER CHILDREN IS A DIRECT INSULT TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHO SANCTIFIED HER AS HIS SPOUSE, AND TO BE THE VESSEL TO CARRY THE WORD INCARNATE, THE SECOND PERSON OF THE HOLY TRINITY.

FOR ANYONE TO SAY THAT MARY HAD OTHER CHILDREN IS AN INSULT TO JESUS CHRIST, WHO WAS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF HIS MOTHER, AS HE HIMSELF WAS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN.

FOR ANYONE TO SAY THAT MARY HAD OTHER CHILDREN IS AN INSULT TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, WHO WOULD HAVE TO HAVE CARRIED THE GUILT OF INGRATITUDE TO GOD FOREVER, IF SHE HAD DISCARDED THE PRECIOUS GIFT OF HER VIRGINITY WHICH GOD HAD SO METICULOUSLY PREPARED FOR HER IN THE CONCEPTION OF HIS WORD INCARNATE.

FOR ANYONE TO SAY THAT MARY HAD OTHER CHILDREN IS AN INSULT TO ST. JOSEPH. Knowing full well that Mary had given birth to the Word Incarnate, and that her Son was the second person of the Holy Trinity, the Son of GOD, he must have been awestruck by the event. He knew that just by her being the one chosen (Luke 1:27-33), and by an act of GOD, in protecting her virginity (Luke 1:34-38), that she was special, and by the special graces given to her, elevated her far above any other woman. After all what could possibly follow the honor and graces given her by the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is her spouse and St. Joseph knew it when he was informed by the Angel in a dream (Matthew 1:20). Would any sane man be so vain as to father mere human children with her? The idea of the spouse of the Holy Spirit becoming a mother to one not by the Holy Spirit, would have been repulsive, and would have had all the ingredients of sacrilege to him.

The Protestant Reformer Ulrich Zwingli had this to say:
"It was not enough that the conception of Jesus take place without a male role, for if a woman who had previously known a man had conceived him even through the Holy Spirit, 'who would ever have believed that the child that was born was of the Holy Spirit? For nature knows no birth that is not besmirched with stain.' For the same reason she had to be ever a virgin, she who bore the one in whom there could not be even the least suspicion of blemish. For the birth of Jesus to be absolutely pure of every stain, Mary herself had to be free of any pollution of normal child-bearing..." Zwingli

Why do his followers deny his words today?

There is absolutely nothing in Scripture which says that Mary had other children. Those who say she did, are committing calumny and slander, and are offending the Holy Trinity and the Holy Family. They are playing 'You Bet Your Soul'. Is it worth it? When they meet Jesus Christ face to face one day, how are they going to explain to Him, why they slandered His mother?
What will they say to Him then?

 

The angel Gabriel told Mary that she was full of God's grace.

If God created Eve, the mother of humanity, without sin, then why wouldn't He extend His grace to Mary, the mother of His Son and Christianity?

Mary was sinless and remained sinless not because anything that she did, but by the power of God.

Are you denying or putting limitations on God's power?

Do you believe that Eve is better than Mary?

 

Jesus said that WHOSOEVER shall do the will of the Father is at the same level of honor as his brother, sister, or EVEN MOTHER! If the honor Jesus exacted his earthly mother was equal to that of any obedient believer, why should we treat her any differently than any other believer?

So she gave birth to "the word incarnate"... well, Judas made it possible for 'the word incarnate' to fulfill His ultimate purpose for coming to earth, but Judas was severely cursed. Your idea of honor by association is weak at best.

 

What Christian doesn't experience God's fullness of grace? Where is grace required? Where sin abounds.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Eve was created in an environment free from sin. Mary was born into sin just like everyone else after Adam and Eve. Furthermore, if Eve was cleansed of original sin, then she would have lived forever in her mortal body. Death is a result of sin (the wages of sin is death). Mary was cleansed of her sin after Jesus' death and resurrection, the same as the rest of us. Romans 6 indicates that death was condemned to die with the mortal body for those who believe... therefore, if Mary's original sin was forgiven, her mortal body would yet remain.

 

Please,

Chicklets is a crack pot </font>[/QUOTE]considering the source that is calling Chick a crackpot, I will take no offence.

 

Mary is the role model of Faith and doing the Will of the Father. She heard God's word, reflected on it, and obeyed it.

Mary's role was important to giving birth to Jesus.

Judas was not vital to the role of Jesus.

Who is the first person in Scripture to call Mary 'Blessed'? The first place in the Bible where you will find the answer is Luke 1:28. If your answer is Gabriel, then it is the wrong answer. Gabriel is an Archangel, and the Greek word 'angel', means 'messenger'. So Gabriel was only a messenger for someone, but who? Gabriel was sent by GOD, so it was GOD's message that Gabriel delivered. If GOD was the first person to call Mary 'Blessed', can any of GOD's creatures do less? Dare you, or I, or anyone else refute a clear statement from GOD Himself? Anyone who attempts to do so is putting himself above GOD. Others in Scripture called her 'Blessed' also. Elizabeth did in Luke 1:42, and a 'woman from the crowd' did in Luke 11:27. Mary herself said in Luke 1:48, "...for behold, henceforth ALL GENERATIONS 'SHALL' CALL ME BLESSED". Can you dispute the fact that the word 'henceforth' means from this moment on, and that the word 'shall' is a command, and not a suggestion? If you look up the word 'Blessed' in the dictionary, it means, 'Holy', held in 'Veneration', 'Revered'. GOD is telling us that Mary is Holy, and she should be venerated and revered. How can any person refuse to abide by this specific command in Luke 1:48 and still claim they follow the Bible?

Okay, so she is 'Blessed', but that does not mean we need her! Well, what did GOD say through Gabriel in Luke 1:30-33? "You have found favor with GOD." Right there, GOD 'venerated' Mary over all other women. In verse 31 He tells her that she will conceive. Who will she conceive? None other than Jesus Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity, who will manifest Himself as the 'Incarnate Word'. GOD Himself needed Mary to conceive His very own Son, and to carry Him for nine months to term. GOD needed Mary to be the vessel to give birth to His Divine Son. If GOD needed her, can we not need her also?

So she gave birth to a male child! She is a mother like any other mother! Why does that make her special? This brings us to a basic theological question. Who is Jesus Christ? We know that He is the second person of the Holy Trinity, the only Son of GOD. We know He is also the 'Incarnate Word' as explained in John 1:14, "...the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." John 1:1 teaches us that the "WORD WAS GOD." Mary gave birth to the 'Incarnate Word', and the 'Word' was GOD. I ask, to whom did Mary give birth? The only possible answer is that she gave birth to GOD. Some insist that she only gave birth to the 'humanity' of GOD, but what does that mean? Jesus Christ was the only person ever born with two natures, one human and one divine. He was but one person however, not two. He could not be a human person and a divine person, as that would make Him two persons. The question then becomes, 'was Jesus Christ a human person, or was He a divine person'? Back to John 1:1 and 14, the 'Incarnate Word' was GOD. Jesus Christ is a divine person. Mothers give birth to persons, each with a nature. They do not give birth to natures. GOD Himself, calls Jesus Christ His divine Son (Heb 1:5-8). Yes, she is a mother like any other mother, but what a difference between the sons.

 

The Catholics call Mary the Mother of God, when Christ created the universe, mary was not there (JOHN 1:3) All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. Christ is divine, Mary is only human, she was a chosen vessel to bring Christ forth in the form of a man. But Christ was God long before Mary was born. Mary is embaressed, because the people are bowing down to statues of her (Exodus 20:4,5) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in Heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself, nor serve them...Mary would never be a part of this!
The Catholics teach that Mary was sinnless, if you speak about the Lord Jesus Christ as being without sin then you are correct (II Corinthians 5:21)For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin...But as for the rest of us born on this planet , the scriptures clearly say: (Romans 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.People are decieved who look to Mary as the mediatrix, and pray to her, there is only one mediator(1 Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Beloved, you have been lied to, Mary is not a mediatrix, Jesus loves you, you must trust in him, he's the only one we can go to as a mediator.
Satan knew Jesus would leave heaven and be born of a virgin to become the savior and mediator between God and man, so he devised a wicked plan to confuse the people into putting thier trust in a counterfeit virgin that Satan created. After Noahs flood, the survivers multiplied and built the great city Babylon. Satan found his "Virgin"- a beautiful witch named Semiramis, and he used her to put untold millions into hell. Semiramis became the queen of Babylon, and married Nimrod, Historicly he was called the husband of his mother. Satan used them both to create a satanic cult so powerful that it spread around the world, and multitudes looked to Semiramis as thier goodess mother. Semiramis , and Nimrod came up with the idea of confessionals, and celibacy for the priesthood. Nimrod was called by many names, including "Moloch" . Babies were sacrificed in his honor, when Nimrod was put to death, the people wept. Semiramis moved quickly to take advantage of the situation, Satans phony virgin gave birth to another child, and claimed that Nimrod had been reincarnated, the child was called Tammuz, he became the sun god , Baal. She became a goddess with many names such as: Baalti, (the Madonna), the great goddess mother, Queen of heaven, the mediatrix, mother of man kind, ect...As time went on, monuments of the goddess and her child appearded in many nations, because when the people of Babylon were scattered to various parts of the earth, they took with them the worship of the divine mother and child.
Satan had successfuly set up his own deadly religion long before Jesus was born, even in Tibet, China, and Japan the Jesuit missionaries were astonished to find the counterpart of the Madonna and her child as devoutly worshiped as in Rome itself.Even in Africa the great mother and child recieved divine honors, worldwide, the adoration was so strong among the pagens that they would not forsake thier mother goddess. When Roman Catholicism came into existence around 300 A.D. , the leaders knew if they could adopt the worship of the goddess mother into thier religios ceremonies, then countless pagens would convert to Catholicism. But who would replace the great mother? Mary the mother of Jesus, was the only logical choice, the ancient Babylonian religion depicted the goddess mother as the only one who could control her son, and so the same satanic idea was incorprated into Catholicism-"Jesus is angry, and only Mary can appease him", and so Catholics are affraid of the loving savior. This "angry Jesus" is not the Jesus of the bible who said: Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matt 11:28, the mother of God that the Catholics worship is not the Mary of the Bible, Satan has successfully deceived them into worshiping his counterfeit goddess, "the Queen of Heaven"

 

And so?? God has filled me with his grace too.

The operative word being IF. We don't deal in conjectures here. We deal in the facts of the Bible. Give Scripture for your belief not heretical Roman Catholic Tradition. You cannot read into Scripture that which is not there. Mary is a sinner for the plain fact that the Bible says she is. "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God," including Mary.

That is your opinion (meaningless because it is unsupportable), and the RC teaching--also meaningless simply because it is based on Oral Tradition and not on the Bible. The Bible teaches that Mary was a sinner.
#1. Mary rejoiced in "God her Saviour" admitting her need of a Saviour, and in essence admitting that she is a sinner.

#2. The Bible says that all have sinned.

#3. When Jesus was circumcised Mary took a SIN offering to the priest. WHY? She was a sinner, and knew it.

No, rather you are. God acts in accordance to His character and His Word. You are forcing God to work outside of His own Word according to your own preconceived ideas and thoughts, according to your own theology. You have God already pegged in your own little box, commanding him to work the way you want him to work. You are limiting God in the way that you want him to. You are the one that says Jesus could not be born from a sinless virgin that remained a perpetual virgin. You are the one putting limitations on God.

God created all people equal, but you apparently don't believe that.
DHK

 

There is a whole chapter of role models of faith in Hebrews chapter 11. Mary was no better a role model than any one of the others. Abraham is especially used in the Bible as an example of a man of faith, and the Friend of God. Abraham also did the will of His Father. Abraham also heard God's Word, reflected on it, and obeyed it. So did his wife--Sarah.

No one said her role was not important.

Are you confused? So Gabriel or God called Mary blessed. What is the big deal here? Many people are called blessed. I am blessed also. Most of the people on this board are blessed. If you know Christ as your Saviour that is a blessing in itself, and you are indeed blessed. The Greek word used is: eulogeo, and means:

"from a compound of 2095 and 3056; to speak
well of, i.e. (religiously) to bless (thank or invoke a benediction upon, prosper):--bless, praise." (Strong's Concordance)

In the context of Luke 1:28 it means "to speak well of." People spoke well of Mary. So what.

And so... Your point is... She is well spoken of. We can agree that people in every generation spoke well of Mary, and that is all, for that is all that was meant by "blessed."

That is where you are absolutely wrong. I already looked the word up for you, in a Greek lexicon. The word for veneration or revered is a completely different word than blessed. You are wrong on this.

God's command to all believers is to be holy:

1 Peter 1:15-16 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Only God, and God alone is to be venerated. To venerate Mary is to worship her. Worship belongs to God alone. This is the grave sin of the Catholic Church. It is idolatry.

There is no command in Luke 1:48
Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
--That is not a command for us to do. It is a verse telling us what will happen. It is not a command.

Now explain this verse:

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women."

Why was Jael so blessed? Even to be called blessed above all women? Deborah, in her song, goes on to explain why:

Judges 5:26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
--Jael, by doing such a barbarous and murderous act, was doing just as much of the will of God as Mary was doing in giving birth to the Saviour. Each were called blessed above all women. Each were being used by God in a point in time in history for a very specific purpose.

You spew out this heresy. "Finding favor" is not the equivalent of "veneration." It is far from it. There is no indication anywhere in the Bible that Mary is to be venerated. That is a Catholic heresy.

This is absolute heresy. God did not NEED Mary. He happened to choose Mary out of a countless number of others. He didn't NEED her. God doesn't NEED anything. If God NEEDED anything then God would not be God. God has need of nothing.

Acts 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
DHK

 

I know that those in the RCC truly believe what they are saying. It is something that they have been taught all there lives.

In the post mentioning baptism, Living4Him states that sin goes out and God comes in. Baptism in and of itself does not remove sin. A person receives baptism as an act of obedience AFTER receiving Jesus into their hearts. Jesus is what removes the stain of sin.

Also, God in no respecter of persons (Rm 2:11). If Mary was held to a higher degree of blessedness, then that statement cannot be true. And the Bible is the inspired Word of God (2Tim 3:16).

I think that Judas had a pretty vital role in the life of Jesus. After all, his was the kiss of death.

 

Rooster,

Jesus Christ is one person who possesses two natures. He has a Divine nature and a human nature. He is not a Divine person AND a human person, as that would make Him two persons.
A person receives his nature from his father. His Father's nature is Divine.
Therefore, He is also Divine, which makes Him a Divine person.
A person possesses a nature. A nature does not possess a person.
Nature describes what a person can do, but the person does it.
Mothers give birth to totally complete persons, each with a nature. Never does a mother give birth to a nature alone.
Natures do not have mothers, persons do.
Therefore, Mary gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, who is a Divine person, thus making her the Mother of GOD.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

 

Born Again in Baptism


One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

Few truths are so clearly taught in the New Testament as the doctrine that in baptism God gives us grace. Again and again the sacred writers tell us that it is in baptism that we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into his body, washed of our sins, regenerated, cleansed, and so on (see Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22). They are unanimous in speaking of baptism in invariably efficient terms, as really bringing about a spiritual effect.

The early Fathers were equally unanimous in affirming baptism as a means of grace. They all recognized the Bible’s teaching that "[In the ark] a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21).

Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes, "From the beginning baptism was the
universally accepted rite of admission to the Church. . . . As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins . . . we descend into the water ‘dead’ and come out again ‘alive’; we receive a white robe which symbolizes the Spirit . . .the Spirit is God himself dwelling in the believer, and the resulting life is a re-creation. Prior to baptism . . . our heart was the abode of demons . . . [but] baptism supplies us with the weapons for our spiritual warfare" (Early Christian Doctrines, 193–4).

 

Living4Him stated: "The early Fathers were equally unanimous in affirming baptism as a means of grace. They all recognized the Bible’s teaching that "[In the ark] a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21)."

You again state that baptism saves you, or the water therein.

I was saved by the BLOOD of Jesus!! There is NO other way. Baptism into a church will NOT save you. How can a baby being baptised be expected to appeal to God for a clear conscience. It cannot!

 

Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

This comparison between who could receive baptism and circumcision is an appropriate one. In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ"—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.

The "type" of baptism in the Old Testament was circumcision, which made a man a Jew,
Gen 17:10-14.
Circumcision had to be done early in life, on the eighth day of birth.
"He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male throughout your generations..."
Gen 17:12
Eight days old and every male, certainly does include infants, does it not?
I must ask: Since circumcision of infants was so important for the GOD of the Old Testament, why then are children excluded from Baptism by some in the New Testament?


Where does it say in Holy Scripture, "Do not Baptize infants"? Show me the Biblical authority NOT to Baptize infants?

Jesus Christ said in Matt 28:19, "GO, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..."
He did not say adults only did he? Did he ever put an age limit to receive Baptism?

Acts 22:16, "and now WHY DO YOU DELAY? Get up and be Baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
So why do you delay in Baptizing your children?

Acts 2:38, But Peter said to them, "Repent and be Baptized every one of you..."
I would say that verse would include everyone, including infants and children of all ages. Peter did not say to leave your infants at home.

Acts 16:15, "And when she and her household had been Baptized..."
Did her household have infants maybe? Did Luke say "everyone in her household except infants"?

Acts 16:33, "And he took them at that very hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he and ALL his family were baptized immediately."
Again, were infants excepted here?

1Cor 1:16, "I Baptized also the household of Stephanas..."
Did Paul say "everyone except infants"?

Luke 3:21, "Now it came to pass when all the people had been baptized..."
Aren't infants part of "all the people"?

For those who deny infant baptism, the burden of proof is upon you to show that in all of the verses listed above there were no infants in all of those households and families.


Yes we are saved by the BLOOD of Jesus, but how are we buried with Christ? By baptism.

When you are baptized, doesn't your minister say, "I baptize you now in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Buried with him by baptism unto death and raised again to newness of life"?

 

It is circumcision of the heart that is done without hands. You are trying to make it where man has something to do with the salvation. If that were the case, how is it a free gift. You are adding works to the beautiful simplicity of the free gift of salvation.

Does a person HAVE to be baptized? If they accept Jesus as Saviour, then die without water baptizm, will they go to heaven? I gather from your posts that you think that water baptism is a necesary ingredient for salvation. Am I wrong in this assumption??

If an infant gets baptized, and baptism is for the removal of the stain of sin, where does the confessing with the mouth come into play (asking Jesus into your heart)? An infant cannot speak. Baptism is symbolic. It is an act of obedience.

 

Baptism does not save, nor will it wash away your sins, only the blood of Jesus can do that.

There is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5).

That one baptism is found in Mark 1:8: John the Baptist said “I indeed have baptized you with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” Also, Acts 1:5: “For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

After trusting Jesus with a pure heart, you receive the Holy Spirit : Ephesians 1:8: “After ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

One sign of having the Holy Spirit is telling others about Jesus (Acts 1:8).

Paul implied water baptism was not part of the “Gospel” in I Corinthians 1:17 when he declared that he was not sent by Christ to baptize, but to preach the Gospel.

Paul defined the Gospel in I Cor. 15:1-8, and did not mention water baptism.

The New Testament has several additional examples of people who were saved without any evidence they were water baptized. Examples include the penitent woman in Luke 7:37-50; a publican in Luke 18: 13-14, the paralytic man in Matthew 9:2, etc.

Matthew 3:15 calls baptism a work of righteousness, but in Titus 3:5 it says you are not saved by works of righteousness.

In John 6:28-29 Jesus was asked what we must do to do the works of God, he said to believe on Him.

What really washes away your sins is the Blood Jesus Shed when he was executed!

Colossians 1:14: “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”

Hebrew 9: 22: “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.”

Revelation 1:5: “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.”

intojesus

 

When a child is baptized as an infant they make their own profession of faith during confirmation which is usually when the child is in Jr. High. The child is now confessing that yes Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

Here is an example of that:

Do you reject sin,
so as to live in the freedom of God's children?

I do.

Lord, all I want to is live in the freedom you offer me.
I want to reject the unloving choices I have made,
and the sinful failures to love anywhere in my life.
I reject all injustice,
all violence,
all that disrespects the dignity of all human life,

Do you reject the glamor of evil,
and refuse to be mastered by sin?

I do.

Lord, I admit that some evil has a hold on me:
it is attractive, it has such powerful rewards,
it has become a habitual way for me to be myself.
Lord, I renew my commitment this day
to turn from that evil
and from letting any disordered attachment,
any empty promises master me,
and try to separate me from you.
By this promise, I commit myself
to greater courage in acting justly
and refusing to let unjust systems and structures
numb my conscience or dull my heart.

Do you reject Satan,
father of sin and prince of darkness?

I do.

Lord, as I renew my the promises
that accompany my becoming one with you
in the baptism of dying to sin and rising to life,
I know that an Enemy tries to
tempt me to sin and to many dark patterns,
I now promise to you,
and to my sisters and brothers
who depend upon my fidelity,
that I renew my commitment
to reject that Enemy,
and all his ways of subverting
your reign and the coming of your kingdom.

Do you believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth?

I do.

Lord, you made me and give me life every day.
I believe in you, I turn to you,
and I place my life,
and the graces I need each day,
in your loving hands.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord,
who was born of the Virgin Mary,
was crucified, died, and was buried,
rose from the dead,
and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?

I do.

Jesus, my Lord and Savior,
my life is in your hands.
I believe in you, I turn to you,
I commit myself to growing closer to you,
placing myself with you,
in love - compassionate, self-sacrificing love -
for others.

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting?

I do.

Holy Spirit of Jesus,
Jesus promised not to leave us orphans.
I so desire to be enkindled with
the fire of your love,
that I might be renewed in courage.
I believe in and renew my commitment to
your work among us.
I want to contribute to the unity that you desire for us.
I promise to be as merciful,
for I have known your mercy.
And I pledge to live my life each day on this earth,
full of faith in the resurrection Jesus gained for me.
God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
has given us a new birth
by water and the Holy Spirit,
and forgiven our sins.
May God also keep us faithful
to our Lord Jesus Christ
for ever and ever.
Amen.

Lord, Our God,
this year's journey to the waters of baptism
has renewed me.
I have come to know more intimately
the complexity of my weakness
and the depths of your love for me.
By your grace, I have come to experience
the mystery of the gift of life you offer.
Please help me to remain free and faithful
that I might grow as a servant of
Jesus' own mission.
I ask this with growing faith in
the name of Jesus, my Lord.

 

Excuse me...I didn't mean to get anyone upset with my comments. SOME RCC do believe that Mary was born of a virgin, but the official dogma is that she was cleansed at conception.

My wife was reared a Catholic, and her family and parish believed that Mary's mother (Anne) was a virgin.

Guess, Catholics are like Baptists...some believe one thing, some believe another.

 

The first mention of Baptism in the New Testament is in the story of John the Baptist...

"...and they were Baptized by him in the Jordan." Matt 3:6

However, the Baptism by St. John was not yet a Christian Baptism, which began with Jesus Baptizing His disciples in John 3:22, and for all after the Resurrection of Christ. St John's was a Baptism of repentance.

"I indeed baptize you with water, for repentance. But He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to bear. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire."
Matt 3:11

"If anyone thirst, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture says, From within Him there shall flow rivers of living water." He said this, however, of the Spirit whom they who believed in Him were to receive; FOR THE SPIRIT HAD NOT YET BEEN GIVEN, SINCE JESUS HAD NOT YET BEEN GLORIFIED. John 7:37-39

And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?" But they said to him, "We have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "How then were you baptized?" They said, "With John's baptism." Then Paul said, "John baptized the people with a baptism of repentance, telling them to believe in Him who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus;" Acts 19:2-5

It is to be noted that the same holds true for the Baptisms given by the Apostles also before the resurrection. It was not until Acts 2:3-4, when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit, that they were able to perform the Baptism of Christ.
"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be witnesses for Me in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and even to the very ends of the earth." Acts 1:8.
"And there appeared to them parted tongues as of fire, which settled upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in foreign tongues, even as the Holy Spirit prompted them to speak." Acts 2:3-4.

Soon after the descent of the Holy Spirit, the Apostles began Baptizing the people...

"But Peter said to them, 'Repent and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'." Acts 2:38

"Now they who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand." Acts 2:41.

"And now why do you delay? Get up and be Baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His name." Acts 22:16


Romans 6:3-6 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Heb. 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.