VIRGIN MARY

That's right, you will be judged and rewarded based on your works not on your faith.

I believe God's entire plan of salvation and that it started because of the grace of God which allowed for His Son to be the Sacrificial Lamb for the entire world.

It is the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will.

Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.

Then it is the faith and trust in Jesus Christ. And with keeping with the two greatest commandment of that Jesus told us To Love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Jam 2:14-26 which starts with (14) "What will it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but does not have Works? Can the faith save him?...(17) So faith too, unless it has Works, is dead in itself...(20) Faith without Works is useless...(21) Was not Abraham our father justified by Works when he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Do you not see that Faith worked along with his Works, and by the Works the faith was made perfect?...(24) You see that by Works a man is justified, and not by faith only....(26) For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so, Faith also without Works is Dead."


Whenever St. Paul said works are not needed, he was referring to the old Mosaic Law or works of darkness. He did not mean the good works rendered by the Law of Grace

 

This is a false statement as is seen clearly in Scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The WORKS of verse 9 are the same kind of GOOD WORKS in verse 10. The one cannot be divorced from the other. Paul is not speaking of the works of the law. If he is demonstrate it.

He plainly says "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves."
Either you believe God on this point or you don't.
I prefer to believe God, not the RCC
DHK

 

Since when is a state university a Catholic institution?

Why don't you check sources that aren't baptist? </font>[/QUOTE]I have. I can show not only Baptist historians, but Presbyterian, Lutheran, Calvinist, and even Catholic histories that back up the same thing. You don't want to do your homework.
DHK

 

BAPTIST HISTORY VERIFIED BY PROTESTANTS

Baptists are not Protestants and never have been. Even the Protestants admit to our existence. Listen to what they said:

Alexander Campbell [Church of Christ] in the Campbell-McCalla Debate - "The church at Jerusalem was a Baptist church, and the church at Samaria was a Baptist church."

Mosheim, Lutheran Historian - "The first century was a history of the Baptists."

John Ridpath, Methodist Historian - "I should not readily admit that there was a Baptist church as far back as 100A.D., though without doubt there were Baptists then, as all Christians were then Baptists."

 

ya know living for him, I do have to give you some credit, even though I don't believe in catholic doctrin, you probably read the Bible, and practice your faith much more than any other catholic I have ever talked to, most say they are catholic, but havent been to a mass in years, not many around like you.

 

Rooster,

Thank-you. But I believe that can be said about people in any Christian religion. I know, because when my religious affiliation was IFB I was a "Sunday Christian."

I was raised in an IFB home and made a of profession of faith at the age of 5. When I was little, I wanted to marry Jesus. I didn't really see the love of Christ living through a lot of people, mainly I saw attitudes of superiority and holier than thou.

Now at the age of 36, with the Grace of God, I am finally living my Christian faith. I am more satisfied and feel more at peace in my new religious affiliation.

I praise God for my vocation of Christian wife and homemaker. I pray every morning that with His help I will be the light of Christ to my family and those around me.

Catholicism is listed as Christianity, although most baptist believe that they are all a bunch of unsaved heathens.

I guess I get a little "punchy" in defending the faith. I apologize to my brothers and sisters in Christ, if I have offended anyone.

Our main goal should be building up the Kingdom of God and witnessing to those who do not believe in God, rather than thinking that our Christian brothers and sister are doomed because they don't belong to our church.

God has given us the desire to seek after Him. Our purpose in life is to know God, Love Him, and serve Him in this life, so that when our time passes, we will be able to see Him and share eternity with Him.

I think the main differences are that baptist seperate faith and works. They see faith first and then works follow from that faith. Where as Catholics see the Grace of God and then faith working through love to continue justification.

 

The main difference is, Living4Him is that Catholics are not born again. Tell me: What does it mean to be born again?
DHK

 

This is like saying that Jesus is being continually crucified, that once was not enough.

 

Living4Him, do you believe everything in the catachism? If you miss church on Sunday, not have a chance to repent before dying, that you will end up in hell because that is a motal sin? And why are some sins venial? Who makes the decision that some sin is bigger than others? This has always been an issue of huge curiosity on my part.

 

1. Do you believe at the Last Supper that when Jesus said "this is my blood" that it was literally his blood or symbolic? When he said "this is my body" was that literally his body or was it symbolic?

2. Where did Jesus ever say or imply that BREAD is his BLOOD? Where did Jesus ever say or imply that WINE is his BODY, which the RCC teaches? Jesus said the wine is his blood and the bread is his body.

3. Several verses on faith, works, grace, and baptism are thrown out by the RCC to justify their salvation plan.

4. The Bible says mocking the Holy Spirit when somebody speaks in tongues is an unforgivable sin. It is repeated in many gospels and is very clear. The RCC says there is no unforgivable sin, only sins that end up not forgiven because the sinner didn't repent before dying.

 

The RCC was created in 1054 when it broke off from the original church, the Orthodox Church. The RCC is the first Protestants.

 

Do you know the condition of one's heart? Who are you to say that Catholics are not born again?

Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Regeneration (being "born again") is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17). To understand the biblical teaching of being born again, we must understand the terms it uses to refer to this event.

The term "born again" may not appear in the Bible. The Greek phrase often translated "born again" (gennatha anothen) occurs twice in the Bible—John 3:3 and 3:7—and there is a question of how it should be translated. The Greek word anothen sometimes can be translated "again," but in the New Testament, it most often means "from above." In the King James Version, the only two times it is translated "again" are in John 3:3 and 3:7; every other time it is given a different rendering.

Another term is "regeneration." When referring to something that occurs in the life of an individual believer, it only appears in Titus 3:5. In other passages, the new birth phenomenon is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12), and becoming a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).

These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son" (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17).

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), "Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized" (John 3:22).

Then we have the witness of the early Church that John 3:5 refers to baptismal regeneration. This was universally recognized by the early Christians. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching this.

The truth that regeneration comes through baptism is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Paul reminds us in Titus 3:5 that God "saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit."

Paul also said, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:3–4).

This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, "In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ" (NIV).

Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.

In Acts 2:38, people are exhorted to take an action: "Be baptized . . . in the name of Jesus Christ," which does not refer to an internal baptism that is administered to people by themselves, but the external baptism administered to them by others.

In 1 Peter 3, water is mentioned twice, paralleling baptism with the flood, where eight were "saved through water," and noting that "baptism now saves you" by the power of Christ rather than by the physical action of water "removing . . . dirt from the body."

 

Manchester,

I'm afraid that you are mistaken in what you believe about the RCC.

Yes the RCC teaches about the unpardonable sin as:

God cannot and will not pardon anyone unless there is repentance and an acceptance of His mercy.

It is precisely the lack of repentance and the refusal of God's mercy which cannot ever be forgiven.

Usually the "sins of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" are listed as six in number:

1. Presumption of saving oneself without Christ or His Church or else without personal effort and cooperation with grace;

2. despair of God's mercy;

3. deliberately resisting the known truth

4. envy of another's spiritual good;

5. obstinacy

5. final impenitence.

 

Yes, that is what it teaches. And the Bible teaches the exact opposite, as I stated earlier. The Bible teaches that a certain type of sin cannot be forgiven, but the RCC denies the truth and power of the Scriptures.

-LUKE 12:10, "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

This shows there is a difference between a word said against the Son of Man and a word against the Holy Spirit. But the RCC says there is no difference - both can be forgiven if you repent of it, neither will be forgiven if you don't.

-MARK 3:29, "Whoever blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin."

-MATTHEW 12: 31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."

Again, the RCC does not treat blasphemy against the Holy Spirit differently from anything else. The scripture is twisted to fit the RCC doctrine.

[ October 22, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: manchester ]

 

I don't have to know the heart Living4Him, I just have to know the Scripture. By what you said in your above post Catholics are not born again.
Jesus said to Nicodemus:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

It is one of the most important verses in the Bible. Unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God. You cannot enter into Heaven. You are not saved. You are not part of the family of God, and you will spend an eternity in Hell. Those are the plain facts.

Salvation does not come through water as you suggest. That is a superstition, and one of the oldest superstions (heresies) of the church. Baptism is not mentioned in the entire chapter of John 3, and you force the meaning into that context without any justification whatsoever. That is not "rightly dividing the word of truth" (2Tim.2:15). Water does not wash away sin. The blood of Jesus Christ does. You are no better than a Hindu who goes into the Ganges River every year and believes that the waters of their holy river, the Ganges, will wash away their sin. There is no difference between your belief and the pagan belief of the Hindus. But then Constantine initiated many pagan beiefs into Christianity at the time the Catholic Church was born in the fourth century.

I already demonstrated to you through Scripture that one is born again through the Word of God and through the Spirit of God. Those are the only two possibilities. Check out 1Pet.1:23
"Being born again of the Word of God." The Scripture does not contradict itself. There are only two agents whereby one is born again: water and the Holy Spirit according to John 3:5. You contend water refers to baptism but have no Scriptural defence. It directly says that we are born again by the Word of God. The meaning is obvious. One needs to hear the Word of God to be saved. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." The gospel is presented by hearing the Word of God. When one hears and accepts the gospel through the Word of God, the Holy Spirit does His work and comes and indwells that person who calls upon his name (Rom. 10:9,10,13).

Believe your heresy if you want, but it won't get you to heaven. You must be born again in order to go to heaven. And in order to be born again you must understand what it is to be born again. If Catholics don't understand this very simple concept then how can they be saved? They can't. Their very theology forbids them.
DHK

 

Here you are again saying the Christ ALONE is not enough!

I thought that you said that baptism is not symbolic.

 

LorrieGrace

Jesus often used symbolic language; He used it to give a deeper, spiritual meaning to His words (not to confuse His listeners.)

Whenever our Lord's hearers found difficulties, or raised objections to His words from taking them in their literal sense, while He intended them to be taken figuratively, His constant practice was to explain them instantly, in a figurative manner, even though no great error could result from their being misunderstood. An example of this was when Jesus said to his disciples, "Lazarus our friend sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep." His disciples then said, "Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well." Jesus then said plainly, "Lazarus is dead." Christ did not leave them with the misunderstanding that they expressed.

In another incident Jesus told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, that "unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus then asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again?"
Jesus then answered him precisely by telling him that a man must be "born again of water and the Holy Ghost." Christ again corrects his misunderstanding.

At still another time, Jesus said to His disciples, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." The disciples then thought that Jesus was talking about their taking no bread with them. Jesus, knowing what they were thinking, explained Himself and asked, "Why
do you not understand that it was not concerning bread I said to you:
Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees?"
The disciples then understood that Jesus was talking about their doctrines.

In all these incidents Our Lord explained the meaning of His figurative speech even though taking His words literally would have caused no great harm. We know from this, most certainly, that where there would arise a misunderstanding that would cause harm, Our Lord would most definitely make things very clear to his listeners. We have just such an incident in the Gospel (John 6:48-71):
When Jesus was teaching in the synagogue He told His listeners that:
"the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world." The Jews then, "strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus then, rather than give a figurative meaning to His words, repeated the same in more emphatic terms:
"Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, drink indeed."
This was a command, and a divine precept. Many of his disciples murmured at this saying, "This saying is hard, and who can hear it?"
Jesus, knowing this, said to them, "Doth this scandalize you?" And, rather than give a figurative meaning still, "many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." Jesus, knowing that they had taken Him literally, was then prepared to allow even the twelve apostles to leave Him; Jesus asked His twelve, "Will you also go away?" It is obvious that Jesus meant his words to be taken literally. The way Catholics have always believed them. Jesus promised: "The bread that I will give is my flesh...".


The Sacrifice of the Mass:

Why do some believe that Christ is sacrificed again and again in each and every Mass, when Scripture plainly states that He was sacrificed on Calvary once and for all? Heb 10:10
Many do not realize it, but Christ Himself offered the first Mass at the Last Supper when He offered (sacrificed) Himself to His Father in an unbloody manner, that is, under the form of bread and wine, in anticipation of His bloody sacrifice on the cross to be offered on the following day.
In the Mass, Christ continues to make that offering of Himself to His Father, by the hands of the priest.
"And while they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: "Take and eat. This is my body." And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying: "All of you drink of this. For this is my blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins", Mt 26:26-28.
Christ ordered His Church to perpetuate that sacrificial rite for the continued sanctification of His followers, saying, "Do this in remembrance of me," Luke 22:19.
The Catholic Church complies with His order in the Mass. The Mass is a re-enactment of Our Lord's one sacrifice of Calvary. It is that same sacrifice, not another, Heb 10:12.
We, are in time, and to us it would seem that this one sacrifice was consummated 2000 years ago. GOD, however is outside of time and space.
Everything is now in GOD's eyes, and so we are taken back to that one sacrifice as if it were happening now at each and every Mass.
The Catholic Church teaches that the sacrifice on the Cross was a complete and perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of GOD, offered once.
St. Paul bears witness that the sacrificial rite which Christ instituted at the Last Supper is to be perpetuated, and that it is not only important for man's sanctification, but is the principal factor in man's final redemption.
In 1Cor 11:23-26, St. Paul told how, at the Last Supper, Our Lord said: "For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until He comes."
During the Breaking of the Bread, we say twice, "Lamb of GOD, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us," and a third time, "Lamb of GOD, you take away the sins of the world, grant us peace."
Thus at every Mass the faithful have a new opportunity to worship God with this one perfect sacrifice and to absorb more of Christ's saving and sanctifying grace of Calvary. This grace is infinite, and the faithful should continuously grow in it. The Mass is offered again and again, because of our imperfect capacity to receive.
Finally, the holy sacrifice of the Mass fulfills the Old Testament prophecy:
'For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts'. (Mal 1:11). The Sacrifice of the Mass is offered every day throughout the world, and in every Mass the only truly clean oblation is offered, that is, Christ Himself; thus the Mass is the perfect fulfillment of this prophecy.

Prefigurements of the sacrifice of the Mass:
Gen 14:18,22:9-14, Ex 16:4,13-36, Num 11:6-9, Deut 8:3-16, Josh 5:12,
Neh 9:15-20, Wis 16:20, Psa 78:24,105:40, Isa 55:10, Dan 12:11, Mal 1:11, John Chapt 6, Heb 9:4, Rev 2:17

The Mass:
Mt 26:26-28, Lk 22:19, Acts 2:42,20:7, 1Cor 10:16,11:17-34,
Heb Chapt 7-10, 1Pet 2:5, Rev 8:1-5

His Sacrifice was once for all:
Heb 9:22-28,10:10-14

 

Peter taught at many places, but he was first Bishop of Antioch. If there were a chair of Peter, it would be Antioch not Rome.

 

Here you are again saying the Christ ALONE is not enough!

I thought that you said that baptism is not symbolic. </font>[/QUOTE]Doesn't the RCC teach not no literal baptism is necessary for salvation? "Baptism of desire" and "baptism of blood" among them?

 

No, I am not saying that at all. I'm afraid that you aren't really reading the whole context of my message but picking and choosing what you want to get out of my post.

But even you must "cooperate" or accept (if this is a better word choice for you)the Grace of God which sent His son to be the sacrifical lamb for us.

We all have to believe in Jesus and accept this. If not then when Jesus died on the cross for our sins, everyone would be born forgiven and not stained with original sin.