Universalism

GH, you referenced Romans saying that ALL of Israel will be saved.

I suggest you go back and read that entire chapter again.

Me2, there is no misunderstanding of hell. The Bible is pretty clear on the concept, and promises that the chaff will be burned. You don't have to like it, but it'll still say the same tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that.

 

Don,

its ok to burn all the wheat and chaff you want to.

that was a parable, but I dont recall it mentioning souls, or human beings.

and that was OT. anytime jesus spoke of men in his statements. think carnal flesh. this was the turning point and introduction of a new covenant.

a spiritual covenant. whereas the old physical covenant of israel becomes the new spiritual covenant of the NT church.the two covenants are joined. or do we not have the law as the spiritual environment which the spirit lives within.

israel is saved.. spiritually and in the new form of the church. wether you want to call it gentile or jew. it contains both.

Me2

 

Nah, Me2, don't think so.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

If it were just a parable, Jesus wouldn't have explained it.

 

Actually I should be sad. Just a parable? Parables are not important? Oh my.

 

Yelsew,

the irony is that you believe out of some plan, God chooses to save you and yet within the same plan chooses to torture 100's of billions of humans for an eternity.

and this is the desired image you believe God wants a future mankind to "emulate". and also worship him for choosing.

I completely acknowledge your anathema towards a plan of God just "saving" everyone. a plan that would prove nothing less than perfect Love towards his creation.

fortunately for the rest of us..we can allow God to be responsible for our own individual beliefs and choices. while we just kick back and rest during the entire issue.


Me2

 

tuor and don...

the only ones jesus could remotely be describing are those within Gods family.

the ones being judged within Gods own house.

those who chose to be obedient and those who chose to be disobedient. "all" here are considered to be a member of Gods family, yet now is described as a time for rewards and lack of rewards.

Jesus told this parable twice...now do you think that the second version was a parable or plain truth ?..

seeing that the "apostles" had their new spirit and the holy spirit dwelling within them. they would completely understand, right?

now the end of the world..thats interesting.
when jesus sends out angels to "destroy" the idols in my world.
my world would become desolate
the "end" of my world as I knew it came to be.

as it could be for every believer.
when jesus becomes lord in their life.

when their "world" has become destroyed.

its a spiritual book fellas..
describing something else.

and of course you do recognize that this is the sanctification process as described by jesus ,..Right?..

Me2

 

What about Judas? Do those who believe in Universal salvation believe Judas is going to heaven?

Jesus teaches that he isn't.

Matthew 26:24

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

 

Here is a quotation from one of the most respected commentators in the Christian Church, both moderate and conservative :


I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST
by William Barclay
I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.

Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.

But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.

First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.

Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.

Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.

Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.

[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 65-67, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]

 

tuor,

think on this. jesus came to secure a body, a bride, a group of representatives to be his ambassadors. ultimately of course and more than one purpose of his appearance in the middle of Gods two covenants.
the body that he is collecting is for his future kingdom in his new earth/heaven.

God collected followers under two covenants. one to demonstrate in physical actions a parallel of what the spiritual realm was like and the second. an invisible collection of believers within the "gift" of grace which brings todays believers to the premature realization of some followers very spiritual death and resurrection while still alive physically in this sin filled earth...believers are pre-judged before their physical death.

their lives are being prepared as examples to be testamonies of Gods love to his creation.

Jesus "body" is chosen under the covenant of grace.

and Judas was under the old covenant. not under grace nor had he received a new spirit at the time.(ie, distribution at pentacost).

the reason of the woe was clearly a futuristic remark about judas having to deal with his actions in his next life. many things can be collected yet judas never became a part of Jesus body.
everything that was done in his life is not Glorifying to God and incapable of existing in Gods future presents. and it will be to his hurt to have to choose to forget his misdeeds in his past-life.

how about your life before you became "born again". it is memorized to at some point be chosen by yourself and the holy spirit to be glorifying to God or to be covered by the blood of Christ. or in simple terms. forgotten forever. every choice and action that God brings to your memory in your future life will have to be dealt with.

wow..just like our lives today..
we're being pre-pared to exist within the presence of God..

our lives are in christ. we're considered to be spiritually dead (old man) but consciously alive we have the ability to remember and also to be glorifying before God now...in christ.

we're collecting thoughts, memories and actions to be used as examples before others who will not have those inherited treasures. in our future earth/heavens.


want to see jesus in the new heaven or new earth.
youll have to look inside tuor.
that where he will be
"christ in tuor"
and God will love others through you.
thats the new covenant and what Christ Body is for
loving his creation and reconciling them to God.

every creature he has ever created.

Me2

 

That is nice, but he is a man, just like you or me. Just because he believes that doesn't mean it is true. I could quote at least 5 conservatives against universalism for every 1 in favor probably. Bottom line is that universalism does not match up with the entirety of Scripture. It takes verses by themselves and builds doctrines with them, but it does not consider whether that doctrine is consistent with the rest of Scripture. I think that a lot of universalist are Calvinist with no where else to go, and rather than admit that God isn't the source of every action and there are free moral agents (free at least to an extent, when given options they can make a choice, while their options may be limited by God), they go down this road. Just like Arminians that go down the road to open theism.

Neal

 

Me2,

If what you said was in line with the scripture I would think on it, but it isn't.

 

neal,

many called, few chosen

many children, few adults

many disobedient, few obedient

many mis-understand, few understand

I can tell you verbatim what your religious wise has spoken ad nauseum. they stopped becoming wise when their carnal flesh no longer could repeat the wisdom of all their religious groups combined.

fortunately Gods wisdom is received by individual levels by faith.

its hard to even witness to the truth that is peceived by those with adult faith, but will never be accepted by the religious heirarchy.

in other words. you repeat to yourself what your religious leaders have taught themselves.

Ill talk with the source.

God is Love. not someone who will torment 100's of billions of his creation for an eternity.

Amazing
Me2

 

And tells you which scriptures to believe and which scriptures to reject.

 

tuor,

what are crowns ?
what are treasures ?..(gold,silver,precious gems)
what does christ bride inherit?

everything has an answer and a purpose.
and it is all to serve God in his Kingdom towards others..

He loves us and commands us to love others.
he has created everything for the sole purpose of demonstrating love towards mankind. the body of christ is the physical side of such a demonstration.

Thats what man was created for.
To allow God to demonstrate acts of love towards it. He has chosen to select "hands on" individuals to teach first hand of such love. both from its past ages, and ages to come.
many personal observers with various reponses based on past experiences. able to give personal prespectives with personal opinions.

the bride is the physical testamony of man and Gods activities towards it. it not only contains attributes of Christ but of the Lord also. which makes its purposes in its future ages of a more representable "sphere".

anyone outside the bride will not have such glorifying memories and experiences. for all will have to be addressed and taught why they are not glorifying. and ultimately forgotten.

kinda like today when a mistake occurs in our christian walk. the memory is brought to the forefront of our lives and we respond with repulsion as if we would never have it exist ever again. as if we cant allow it to exist before a God whom we love in return.

that is an action of the holy spirit reconciling our spirit back to God. That is our inheritance in our new earth/heaven of Joining in that activity of reconciling Gods creation back to Himself.

one new freind at a time. thats why the scriptures insist on equalizing self worth with others and not being offended to the point of not being able to forgive. that will be your glorious pleasure of doing in the new earth.

Love your enemies.. because you will be their friend someday. thats the spirit of God within you drawing you to emulate your father. forgiving all.

forgiving all. thats what sets believers apart here.. its call love, instead of judging others because that is what the bodies job will be in their new home..the new earth/heaven.

its a nice thought..almost believeable by faith.
and if you look in your bible through the eyes of forgiveness. you will eventually see everyone forgiven.

its just one step above a selfish child.
a selfless adult.
Me2

 

Oh I know that Neal, but remember, just because you believe something doesn't make it true either. Everybody has to interpret scripture.

Somebody could accuse you of doing the same thing! It all depends on how you put scripture together. The scriptures taken literally by some are spiritualized by others and vice versa. It depends on what your overall view of God is. Is He a God of love or not? Doesn't He know how he made us and what it takes to bring us back? How could a God of love, not willing for anyone to perish put any limits on His grace in this world or any other world? He wouldn't create anyone if He knew they would reject Him forever would He?

Not all universalists are calvinistic! I'm recommending an internet site where you can order or download a book that will give you some material for further study on this subject. Some of the chapters are free right off the site.

http://tomtalbott.freeyellow.com/index.html

 

Oh, I see. It is all subjective. I believe God is a God of love. I also that He is righteous, holy, and just just to name a few. You can't pick one attribute and overemphasize it. You say I could be accused of the same thing, but I don't ignore the passages that clearly deal with eternal punishment and the lake of fire. Universalism does. They change meanings because they don't like it. You can't just change God's Word to what you like. Again, universalism is not consistent with the entirety of Scripture.

Okay. The standard accusation that I don't believe God is love. I would ask you what you think it means to be created in God's image? Did He give us reason and rationale? Can we make a choice? Would God force people to receive Him? Can God desire something and not bring it to pass? Would God create anyone if He knew they would have to suffer pain and commit sin? Does God give man a proposition and a choice in the matter of salvation?

I believe I acknowledged this fact when I said "a lot."

Neal

P.S. If you really want to say it depends on one's interpretation I would ask you how do you know what is truth? Your feelings? Have your feelings ever misled you before? What if someone else's feelings are different than yours? Then who is right? Is there more than one truth? If there is, how can two contradictory things be true. You are opening up a big can of worms going down this road.

 

You are opening up a big can of worms going down this road.

Ah, yes - the road less traveled. It leads outside the camp, where He waits with open arms.

Blessings to you,

GH

 

http://tomtalbott.freeyellow.com/index.html

I've read some of his work. Thought-provoking and edifying material it was for me.

Tom used to post at TM (Tentmaker) from time to time.

For those who are prayerfully and thoughtfully considering UR, I recommend Tom Talbott's writing.s

GH