Universalism

Neal, shake the dust.

 

I didn't say anything depended on one's interpretation, I just said everyone has one! What are your answers to those questions? Who do you think is right? You?

I believe this too, but every other attribute God has is controlled by his love, since He is in essence love! Did you know that everything God does to judge and punish are motivated first of all by His love? He isn't a scizophrenic who loves part of the time and hates the rest of the time! Every judgment and punishment he renders is for our own good and it is always to purge us and to bring us back to Himself. Do you think God's love turns to hate when someone leaves this world unsaved?

You seem to ignore the passages that teach universalism though! Then maby your interpretation of "eternal" and "the lake of fire" are misstaken! Are you letting your past heritage and your "feelings" misslead you here?

God did indeed give us reason and rational, and since He is the one who gave it to us, He knows exactly what it takes to win us. To be created in the immage of God means that someday we will be just like Him! It may take a long time for some, but yes, people do sin, resist his will and cause pain. That's the predicament the world is in today, but it's worth it all if it brings about a more purged and refined product. Do you think the God who knows the beginning from the end, will allow His love to be defeated forever? I think our almighty Creator is competant to give humans free will and know they will finally love him forever.

 

When it comes to universalism, yes. Everything else, not necessarily. I have been wrong and know I am wrong on some things. I am big enough to realize it(and have recently) and conform to the truth.

But no attribute is compromised because of His love. Universalism does not acknowledge this.

Is God not in His essence holy? Is the Lord a "man of war?" Does God not judge righteously?

I have never claimed this. If I have, please show me. Universalism creates the schizophrenic God by making a mockery of Scripture. Go figure. God actually 'acts' like we have a choice in the Bible.

Eternal separation from God is a result of a person rejecting Him.

No. Please show me where I have said this.

Because they are not there! Someone takes a verse out of context and twists it and says, "Voila!"

No, because I am willing to change what my heritage has taught me. I already have and I am sure I will. Please look at the bottom of first page at my post and show me that there is one day going to be no one in the lake of fire.

Then there is no decision to be made? Paul certainly didn't seem to think that. Plus, what you say totally nullifies what reason and rationale mean.

I wouldn't go that far. We will not be equal with God.

Why not skip all this and get straight to the purged and refined? Or is there something more to this? Maybe God wants willful worship? Hmmm....what is better? Willful worship or forced (coerced) worship? You can decide for yourself.

Who says it will be defeated? Because people spurn it it becomes defeated? I think not. Love does not force others or seek its own.

But there are those who do not and will not. So God forces them? Then it is not free will (I dont' really like that term, I prefer power of choice).

Neal

[ May 27, 2003, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

You know anyone can claim that, right? I could go out an kill 50 people and it is the road less traveled and I could say that God waits for me with open arms. (I wouldn't of course. )

Neal

 

I am about ready to. Until someone deals with Scriptural evidence, especially that contrary to universalism, and stops bringing subjective feelings to the table, we will not get far.

Neal

 

Wow, I didn't know you knew me! So now you know my life and what I think and everything I have learned? What size shoe do I wear? How much do I weigh?

So Scripture isn't authoritative with you? I am sorry, I guess you will have a different truth than I.

Neal

 

John 3:18-20
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

It doesn't sound like Jesus was a universalist. Was Jesus lying? You can believe His Word or call Him a liar. The choice is yours. It is His Word that says:

but he that believeth not is condemned already,
DHK

 

Good question, Yelsew. Let's see what Scripture says:

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12-13, ESV

Looks pretty clear to me that it is not everyone, rather there is a conditional statement. It also looks to me that we can't just decide who is going to be a child of God, but God does. And He gives His stipulation right here. Now, why in the world would anyone want to change this? Does anyone really think that they can now on their own determine what it takes to be a child of God?

Neal

 

The road less traveled is the road that shakes out all the loose nuts that are not part of the true vehicle. It is the pathway that leads to the narrow gate through which few are able to enter. It does not lead outside the camp, but directly into the sheepfold!

The road heavily traveled leads outside the camp to all the diversions that Keep man from believing in God. That is Satan's domain. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Yelsew for the encouragement. I'll be looking for Jesus to come and get me back into the sheepfold. For doesn't He leave the 99 and go after the stray?

Bless you,

GH

 

You know anyone can claim that, right? I could go out an kill 50 people and it is the road less traveled and I could say that God waits for me with open arms. (I wouldn't of course. )

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, Neal, you are looking at things outwardly - consider them again inwardly where Christ dwells.

Bless you muchly,

GH

 

Peter is the first Apostle to accept the mission to the gentiles.

Me: Actually he didn't accept it right away. God has to instruct him not to reject what God has made clean. Now Yelly, you KNOW that it was agreed among the pillars that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles. Why are you being nitpicky on this. Am I always wrong?

Jesus did not bring the law to the jews, He himself grew up under the law and brought with him Grace, for He is the Gift of Grace.

Me: I never said He brought the law to the Jews. And yes, I agree that He brought Grace, for He is the Gift of Grace.

He did not come as the Conquering Messiah the Jews were expecting. The anticipations of the Jews was not met in Jesus, the Christ.
I don't think it was ever intended by God for the Jews to accept Jesus thus they were hardened in order to fulfill the prophesies concerning the gentiles vs the jews .

Me: Yes, I've said this over and over. But I guess you don't believe when I say. Well, I sure believe it when you say it because Paul said it too.

What prophesy do you present that clearly states that All are saved?

Me: I've listed upteen scriptures of prophesy. You apparently didn't read them.

There are ages to come where many will be deceived By satan. Near the end of the Millennial reign of Jesus here on this earth Satan will be loosed from the abyss and he will go hither and thither deceiving who he can. Then the end will come and the Judgment. Satan, the False prophet, and all of satan's demons will be cast into the lake of fire, and ALL whose names are not found in the Book of Life. And this is the second death! I don't know about you but scripture is quite clear that there will be many who are not saved, but who are cast into the lake of fire. You can fantasize all you want that all are saved in the end, but you do so without scriptural support!

Yes, Jesus descended into a place where the souls of ages past are "resting", waiting for the final judgment. You must understand that Jesus' coming to earth as a baby is the beginning of God's salvation under Grace, but without the abolishment of the Law. That is a dramatic change of conditions required for Salvation. Under the Law obedience unto righteousness, which was in itself a form of faith, was the condition for Salvation. Under Grace, Faith remains the way to salvation, repentance from sinning is still required as if under the law, Confession of who and what Jesus is key to faith in Jesus. Under the law, atonement for sin was oft repeated blood sacrifices. Under Grace there is a Once-for-ALL atonement in blood sacrifice that was completed for us some 2000 years ago.

Me: Wow! Even John the Baptizer said that no one can see without God showing him. You persist in this choice thing. Well, so be it. Jesus, Paul and John the Baptist ALL taught that no can come unless he be drawn. Look it up for yourself because you won't believe it if I told you.

Those who died before the Christ's appearance unto man did not have the Gospel under Grace. So yes, Jesus went to where they are and preached unto them the Gospel of Grace so that they too could come to FAITH. There is no record that says they all believed and had faith. Likewise, there is no record that says that any of them refused. But you can be assured for as many as believed in Him, their names were written into the book of life because they believed. Those who did not believe will be cast into the lake of Fire because their name is not in the book of life.

I made no statement at all regarding How Jesus felt toward Thomas, but rather, that Jesus told those present that Thomas believes because he has seen, and blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed. Thomas gained knowledge therefore his belief comes through knowledge and not faith. Those who have not seen and believed believe through FAITH! There is a saying that "Seeing is believing". Jesus wants us to believe even though we have not seen, but only heard the Word.

Me: Again, if you think that you can screw up faith by yourself. Go for it with all your heart. Faith is a gift.

Where in what I wrote or what the scriptures say is there an indication that Jesus was either happy or unhappy with Thomas? I don't read anything in scriptures that Jesus condemns any that believe regardless of the reason for their belief. He does say that those who have not seen (gained knowledge) yet believed are blessed.

Me: But isn't it implied that those who do not believe are not blessed? By the Church. I in no way believe that Christ implied that.

You are the one that is outside the camp because you are attempting to impose your convoluted belief on the church. The true church of Jesus Christ is not buying it! </font>[/QUOTE]Me: Au contraire, mon ami. The true church IS buying it. But that's a matter of interpretation. I am attempting to lift up Jesus Christ and His finished work. The church by and large lifts up itself and it's prideful works and decisions.

A word to those who are seeking to know Him and Him crucified. Rest in the knowledge that He will not stop seeking you until He finds you for He loves His strays.

Bless you all in your journies

In His Superabundant Loving Merciful Grace,

GH

 

This is a long post, so Tuor you can keep you smug remarks to yourself. Besides you won't read it anyway. I post it for those who may be interested in laying aside the dead, decayed, regurgitated manna that is offered from the organized church. Eat the meat and spit out the bones is my suggestion. The Spirit will lead you kicking and screaming, but you KNOW it is for your own good. For God is Love and Love (God) never fails. He always leads us in triumphal procession

A post from another board:

A man who was entirely careless of spiritual things died and went to hell. And he was much missed on earth by his old friends. His business manager went down to the gates of hell to see if there were any chance of bringing him back. But, though he pleaded for the gates to be opened, the iron bars never yielded. His cricket captain went also and besought Satan to let him out just for the remainder of the season. But there was no response. His minister went also and argued, saying, "He was not altogether bad. Let him have another chance. Let him out just this once." Many other friends of his went also and pleaded with Satan saying, "Let him out, let him out, let him out."

But when his mother came, she spoke no word of his release. Quietly, and with a strange catch in her voice, she said to Satan, "LET ME IN."
And immediately the great doors swung open upon their hinges. For love goes down through the gates of hell and there redeems the damned!

Our Father and God, incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ, holds in His nail-pierced hand the keys of death and hell. O grave, where is Your victory? O gates of hell, you shall not prevail, for the Redeemer of Israel and the Savior of the world, the God who IS LOVE holds in His triumphant hand your key! He never stops searching until He finds His lost sheep.
Lord, make us like you!

Paul wished himself accursed for his kinsmen in the flesh. Moses asked to have his name blotted from God's book of life for the sake of his people. And we have the audacity to suggest that we will not have love and pity when we see millions upon millions of people suffering while we enjoy intimate fellowship with our God? HOGWASH!

He will makes us like the prophet Isaiah, who said, "Here am I, Lord. Send me." The heart of the Great Shepherd is like this, and if ours is not yet like His, it will be. May God crush our cold and heartless theology and instead replace it with the kind of "faith that worketh through love"--faith that sees beyond the grave...faith that can move mountains...and faith that will not say "No", just like Moses, just like Paul, and even more than they, just like our loving shepherd, Jesus, who will keep on seeking UNTIL He finds. It is wonderful!

I am glad that you believe in choice. But when does that ability to choose life become a reality in someone’s life? Let me be a little more specific. There are a lot of reasons that the scriptures give that make it clear that it is totally impossible for a fallen man to be able to chose life.

Let us consider for a moment the condition of the sinner before someone is saved. I have heard many preachers declare that salvation is like a bowl of fruit that is set before all men to partake of it. Those who choose to pick up an apple or pear enjoy the benefit of salvation. Those who don't partake of what has been freely given for all to enjoy will burn in Hell forever. When salvation is presented in this light, it clearly depends upon a person choosing whether they may enjoy salvation or not. It assumes that the person is in their right mind, and is capable of choosing salvation for himself or herself. Let us consider though the real condition of all of mankind

1. We all love darkness more than light. (John 3:19)
2. We all hate the light because are deeds are evil. (John 3:20)
3. We cannot comprehend (lay hold of) the light. John 1:5
4. We have all turned aside, and have all together become filthy Psalms 4:31
5. We are blind Psalms 146:8; Zephaniah 1:17; Matthew 15:14; John 9:39-41;
II Corinthians 4:3,4.
6. We are deaf Psalms 66:18; Matthew 11:15; Matthew 13-17; Romans 11:8; 1 Corinthians 2 -14.
7. The things of God are foolishness to us. 1 Corinthians 2:14
8. The spirit of man can only understand the things of man. Without the Spirit of God it is impossible to understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Corinthians
2:11-14
9. We are slaves to another--sin is our taskmaster 1 Corinthians 6:19,20; Romans 8:15; Romans 6:11-17.
10. We call good evil, and evil good Isaiah 5:20
11. We are unclean --either because of playing in the tombs, or because we have leprosy (spiritually speaking). Leviticus 11:31-40, Numbers 19:11-20, Haggai 2:13-14. Matthew 23:27,28.
12. We are not in our right minds due to the continual torment that fear has imparted. 1 John 4:18; 2 Timothy 1.
13. We are deceived because we are not doing the word of God, James 1:22-25.
14. We seek our own interests not the Lord's; Philippians 2:21.
15. We are spiritually dead; Romans 7:8-20; Ephesians 2:1-3.
16. We are subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of Him (God) who subjected us to it: Roman 8:18-22; Genesis 5:29; Job 12:6-10.
17. Because we cannot hear, we do not have faith: Romans 10:17.
18. Without faith it is impossible for us to please God: He 11:6; Ps 78:17-39.
19. We were made to lack by Elohim (Psa 8:5, literal translation of little lower than the angels).
20. We are all liars. Romans 3:4
21. "Not one is just" (Rom.3:11)
22. "Not one is understanding" (Rom.3:11)
23. "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom.3:11)
24. "All avoid Him" (Rom.3:12)
25. Can't discern our left hand from our right. Jonah 4:11

No matter how nice we make salvation appear to the unsaved, they are incapable of reaching out to take it. If we can perceive it, there really is nothing appealing about it in the least. In fact, from the viewpoint of the sinner, we are trying to make them eat a plate full of garbage that has been allowed to putrefy for years before being served. Needless to say, we have not even considered the fact that we do not have permission from our master, sin, to even reach out and take the fruit. We are not even our own, even though we believe we are. We are slaves to the "god of this world (-- Revised Standard Romans 6:16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?)." We need to be made whole (saved) just so that we can make a proper decision. We need to be purchased by another before we can get permission to take a hold of salvation (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). "He who the Son sets free is free, indeed."

Let us look specifically at number 3 for a moment. John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. The fallen man is in darkness, and cannot comprehend the light that is shining. Comprehend in the dictionary means: to understand the meaning of something.

In the Strong's dictionary of the Greek the word is:

Strong's Ref. # 2638 katalambano
From GSN2596 and GSN2983; to take eagerly, i.e. seize, possess, etc. (literally or figuratively):
Translated in the KJV as--apprehend, attain, come upon, comprehend, find, obtain,
perceive, (over-) take.

We in our fallen nature cannot understand light, nor can we perceive it, or obtain it. We simply cannot apprehend the things of the Spirit at all. So if all of this is true how can we take hold of an understanding that the Scriptures clearly declare is impossible for us to obtain? Unless God intervenes in that man's life and allows that man to be apprehended by the anointing (Christ),that man will never come to the Lord. Without God's intervention in our lives it is impossible to be saved (made whole). We have to be apprehended first before we can apprehend anything that the Lord wants us to walk in Philippians 3:8-17 Paul said "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may APPREHEND THAT FOR WHICH I AM APPREHENDED OF CHRIST JESUS. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, and let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample." When the words apprehend and apprehended are used in Philippians' 3:8-17
they are the same word katalambano that is translated as the word comprehend in John 1:5.

Clearly we in our fallen state of darkness cannot apprehend Him, but He does, and has apprehended us for His will. John 12: 32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The word draw in the Strong's is:

# 1670 helkuo or helko {hel'-ko}; probably akin to GSN0138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

To Draw =Drag in the Greek. Used Eight times in the scriptures: Joh 6:44; John 12:32; John 18:10; Joh 21:6; Joh 21:11; Ac 16:19; Ac 21:30; Ja 2:6. All will look at Him who was lifted upon the cross and all that look will be made whole just like all who looked at the serpent that was raised in the wilderness were healed from the serpents deadly bite (Nu 21:4-9; Joh 3:12-20).

You can argue all you want but the fallen character of men and women is clearly spelled out in the Bible. We cannot choose to partake of the grace of salvation unless the Lord first chooses us for it. "You have not chosen me but I have chosen you (Joh 15:16)."

But how do we come unto Christ? (By this method, and for this reason )"That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1Cor 1:29-31)

If one truly gets to choose him then one has the opportunity to glory in the flesh, that is, in one's ability. As we read no flesh will get to glory in His presence!!!

Please consider that it is God who:

-is the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb. 12:2).
-calls us through His grace. (Gal. 1:15).
-draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65; 12:32; 14:16; 15:16).
-creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10).
-His arm brings salvation. (Psalm 98:1,2; (Isa. 51:5,6; Isa. 59:1)
-appoints people to believe (Acts 13:4 .
-works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
-chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4).
-chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14).
-grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29).
-grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26).
-calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9).
-causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3).
-predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30).
-predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5).
-predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
-makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).
(This second list was compiled by Gary Amirault)

Please notice that I said it is impossible to choose life from a fallen state. I did not say that we cannot choose between what we judge as good and what we judge as evil. We have an almost infinite range of choices in this realm. But any choices that we make whether they are for the good or for the evil, lead to death. Both choices really stem from the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that as we partake of judging something due to our culture, upbringing, friends, TV, church, or any number of influences only bring us deeper into the realm of death. Now this is important no matter what we choose no matter how good it might appear; that choice only leads to death. That is because all of OUR choices are based in our fallen nature. Based on a tree which only produces the fruit of death; And Not from a new nature. God must Be the Lord of Our lives. He must be allowed to choose and place into our lives just what He desires for us to have. That is the tree of life for us.

You may say, “I believe that Jesus died for All but not all will receive Him in this life time.”

I can agree with this statement. Not everyone will become the elect, the manifested sons of God at this time. God is looking for a corporate people that will become the manifested sons of God, the 100 fold body of Christ that will be just like He is now and when He has all that will be a part of this first fruit company, then he is going to take them into the world and use them to bring the very same liberty that they enjoy in the spirit to ALL creation. That is not just some out of all religions or some out of all nations; but ALL CREATION!!!! Romans 8:18-23 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Your process of choice is backwards. He chooses us first then we have the ability to choose Him, and have His lifestyle imparted into us. John 15:16-19 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. 18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

May the love of the Father draw you today!

 

You mean you can be wrong about everything else accept this one subject?

Well, if the attributes of holiness, judgment, and justice are not compromised by His love, then grace has no meaning and were all headed straight for hell! Isn't that what the cross is all about? The message of the gospel is that He loved us first, when we were still sinners. Universalism isn't the only theology that doesn't acknowledge this lie, they just believe God's grace is extended beyond the present life.

Certainlly God judges righteously, and that's one reason why it could never be endless agony without any hope of reprieve. But first and foremost, He judges mercifully, with His arms stretched out for those who repent.

Separation is a result of a person rejecting God, but is a person doomed to reject God forever? You say you don't believe God's love turns to hate if a person dies unsaved, right? Then you must believe God would be willing to receive that person even in the next world if at that time he repents. Well, what better motivation would a person have to repent than to actually view his maker face to face and understand the consequences of his sins. Don't tell me it's immposible for a person in the next world to ever "want" to repent. That's worse than calvinism!

It's all in the mind of the interpreter. Did you ever consider that this is what you are doing?

But you are still adament in insisting that you will do it for any other subject accept universalism.

In view of all the other apocolyptic symbols in the book of revelation, is this the one you have chosen to take literally. If so, then please notice that it's only the old dragon, symbolic of all that's apposed to christianity, who is tormented "day and night forever and ever". The beast and the false prophet are not real human entities at all, only symbols of Roman government and false Roman religion. Now if the term "forever" always means without end, then why do you need to say " forever and ever". Isn't "forever" enough. The terms refer to ages or eons which can even mean short lengths of time. If you will review Exodus and Leviticus you will see that a lot of the livitical laws under the old covenant, long since superceded and fullfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ, were said to be "forever".

That's totally irrationale!

I didn't mean that. We will be part of the family of God and be like Him in character.

Well, "all this" is part of it!

Of Course!

Well, I think God's purpose is to "seek and save that which was lost", and I don't think He's going to give up until He does it!

Do you think that there will be those in eternity, who after meeting their Maker face to face, seeing the consequencies of their sins, who will stubornly and willfully resist the Savior endlessly?

Many Regards,
Smoke Eater