Where do you line up?

We need to learn to live with the tension of God being in control as presented by the Bible and God allowing humanity to choose or not choose a relationship with God, as presented by the Bible. There is a holy tension there that is beyond the understanding of humanity. I think trying to explain it away or eliminate one side of the tension, in reality creates more problems. It seems to me that Calvin is trying to release the tension by removing humanities role in salvation and Arminius is trying to release the tension by helping God. Neither present the full picture as given to us in scripture. It isn't an either/ or situation in my mind it is a both/ and.

 

I don't think that tension exists. I do think there is a tension, and that there are things that are difficult to understand. But I do not believe scripture teaches at all that God allows humanity to choose or not to choose a relationship with Him. Rather, to be more specific, I don't think scripture teaches what that implies - that He gives us the ability to choose and then leaves the decision up to us.

I don't think Calvin's motive was to release tension. I think Calvin simply called it as he saw it, and that's what scripture says. I have no idea what the motive of Arminius might have been. I'm not sure it matters, since I don't think there are any Arminians here. The free willers are closer to being Pelagian.

 

in regard to Calvibaptists last post....

I do not agree

Erasmus said "The mercy of God offers everyone favorable opportunities for repentance."

This is simply, factually, not true, for millions upon millions of people have lived and died without ever having had a "favorable opportunity for repentance."

"One needs only to attach the rest of one’s own will to God’s help, which merely invites to, but does not compel to betterment."
Jesus did not "invite" Lazarus out of the tomb, He compelled him to do so, and surely, moving from death to life was a "betterment". At any rate, this seems to be the popular adage, "God helps those who help themselves", which is, of course true in one sense and false in another. The main point is given by Paul, that while we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, it is also the case that it is God who is at work in us to do and to will according to His good purposes.

Phi 2:12-13 esv Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
(13) for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.


"Furthermore, one finds the opinion, that it is within our power to turn our will toward or away from grace – just as it is our pleasure to open or close our eyes against light."

True, the "opinion" is there, among many. This statement can either be agreed to or denied, depending on the meaning. In sanctification man "closes his eyes" to the light for it is true only of regenerated man that the sun shines at all, but in regeneration the blind eyes are made to see. People do not heal themselves from blindness, people do not just decide to not be blind any longer.

The Calvinist John Newton siad it well:

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Will be forever mine.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.

"It is incompatible with the infinite love of God for man that a man’s striving with all his might for grace should be frustrated."

We have to keep these two ideas in tension:

Jer 29:11-14 esv For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
(12) Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you.
(13) You will seek me and find me. When you seek me with all your heart,
(14) I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

with

Heb 12:16-17 NKJV (16) lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. (17) For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears."

That someone will not seek the Lord with their whole heart in and of themselves is evident by 1) when this occurs, it is said to be the result of the plans of the Lord eg Jer. 29:11, verse 12 says "then" .... then, as a result of God's plan... they may seek the Lord etc and 2) it (seeking the Lord with the whole heart) may also come as the result of answered prayer as per David's prayer for Solomon; 1Ch 29:19 esv Grant to Solomon my son a whole heart that he may keep your commandments, your testimonies, and your statutes, performing all, and that he may build the palace for which I have made provision."

If a person does seek with their whole heart, this itself is a gift from God, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9


"Through that grace, which they call sanctifying, if he inspires to it with all his power, it results that no sinner should be overconfident, none again should despair. No one perishes except through his own fault."
I can agree with this statement, though for different reasons. No sinner should be over confident because of their salvation, for salvation is all of the Lord, they should instead, be grateful. And none of His should despair, for the Lord loses none of those who have been given to Him by the Father.

blessings,
Ken

 

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (of sin)

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

All men were held "captives of sin", all have sinned, God/Jesus opened the "DOOR" of that prison for "ALL" prisoners,


Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved,

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Predestination attributes God of having this same "Attribute" of Satan, that is of not opening the "DOOR" to free the prisoners of sin.

Scripture plainly teaches that to be a lie, Jesus wasn't send to condemn the world but to open the "DOOR" to "WHOSOEVER WILL" believe, so the only exclusion is not predestination, but whosoever will not believe,

Angry is the response against "TRUTH", but no matter how often men attempt to "crucify it", it will still prevail.

 

I don't know what everybody is doing, but I'm just pointing out the differences between the God described in calvin doctrine and the God described in the scriptures.

God doesn't possess the Attributes of Satan, that is of wishing/willing/predestine any to lose their soul.

And I know people get angry when confronted with a truth they don't like/want, it got Jesus crucified, so I expect the same.

 

Oh, please.

 

Is this the god of Calvin or the God of the Scripture?

</font>[/QUOTE]If Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, was the "DOOR" opened so that the whole world might be saved???

yes/No???

 

Where do you get that DOOR thing from scripture? And you do realize that "whole world" can mean "all peoples from all nations without distinction", right? It doesn't necessarily mean what you want it to mean.

 

Is this the god of Calvin or the God of the Scripture?

</font>[/QUOTE]If Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, was the "DOOR" opened so that the whole world might be saved???

yes/No??? </font>[/QUOTE]Whole world as in every single person who ever lived? NO

Whole world as in individuals from every nation under heaven without distinction? YES.

Me4, are you talking about the "narrow door" in Luke 13 that many will try to get into but can't? You know, the one that the Master of the house rises up to close? Sounds kind of restrictive to me.... </font>[/QUOTE]Joh 10:9 I am the door:
by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved,

You said no, the door to salvation was not opened to the whole world, but how many sins did Jesus died for to free people from sin???

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof;

that opened not the (door to the) house of his prisoners? (that they might be free from the captivity/prison of sin)

In dying for the sins of the whole world, Jesus opened the door on that prison of sin that the whole world "might be" saved, even preaching to those already dead.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (of sin)

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Until Jesus paid the wages of sin, all men were held captive by their sins, in dying for all sins, Jesus opened the door of their prison that they "Might be" free from that captivity.

"Might be saved", prevents God from appointing the "Second death" to anyone, therefore it's only appointed "ONCE" to man to die.

predestination denies the "DOOR" was opened to "EVERYONE".

 

Correct.

 

Correct. </font>[/QUOTE]At least the dishonesty of your answer is easy to see, most try to hide their in a bramble of rambling/unrelated words.

But being dishonest with the scriptures, you cheat your self more than anyone else.

 

I agree, that characteristic of man Israel displayed toward Jesus is as much alive today as ever.

People still can't distinguish between the words of a man and the words of the spirit.

 

Wham! Wow, he got you, Calvi. You obviously don't have the Spirit of God or you'd see everything his way.

 

Wham! Wow, he got you, Calvi. You obviously don't have the Spirit of God or you'd see everything his way.

</font>[/QUOTE]I didn't write:

1. For God so loved the world,
2. God sent not his Son to condemn the world;
3. but that the world through him might be saved.
4. he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
5. not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

your disgreement is not with my words.

 

No, my disagreement is most certainly with your words. I don't disagree with scripture. I disagree with your mishandling of it.

 

its very simple Me4him... if "he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world." means that every person without exception has their sins propitiated, they all would be saved, because all their sins... ALL OF THEM... would be taken care of by Christ on the Cross.... otherwise, on what basis would anyone be lost? If all their sins without exception are propitiated for, then it would include the sin of unbelief, thus everyone ought to be saved, for there is no longer any basis for any judgment to go against anyone.. and if it were true that the sins of the whole world without exception were propitiated, then if God does send anyone to Hell, as the Bible planly tells us He does in fact do... He would be unjust, for He would be sending someone to Hell who's sins were forgiven/covered/propitiated for.

but Universalism isn't true for we know that some are not saved. Therefore "world" in some cases does not mean everyone without exception, but rather means everyone from within a particular class...

so there are 2 choices you have Me4him... either Universalism is true, or, you must qualify the word "world".. which is it?

blessings,
Ken

ps here is some information to prove that the word "world" does not always mean everyone without exception..... therefore you must qualify it, even if you go ahead and become involved in the heresy of Universalism....

Mat 13:38 LITV And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the darnel are the sons of the evil one.
(the "world" sometimes means the habitation and operating area for the evil one)

Mat 18:7 LITV Woe to the world from its offenses! It is a necessity for the offenses to come, yet woe to that man through whom the offense comes!
(since some are saved, this "woe" does not apply to them, thus "world" does not mean everyone without exception)

Joh 1:10 LITV He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him.
(plainly, some do know Him, the "world" can't be everyone without exception)

Joh 1:29 LITV On the morrow, John sees Jesus coming toward him and said, Behold! The Lamb of God, taking away the sin of the world!
(if all the sins of the whole world were taken away literally, then everyone would be saved)

Joh 3:17 LITV For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
(since the whole world is not saved, "world" can't mean every single person who has ever lived without exception)

Joh 4:42 LITV And they said to the woman, We no longer believe because of your saying; for we ourselves have heard, and we know that this One is truly the Savior of the world, the Christ.
(again, the whole world without exception is not saved)

Joh 6:33 LITV For the bread of God is He coming down out of Heaven and giving life to the world.
(same objection as above)

Joh 6:51 LITV I am the Living Bread that came down from Heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he will live forever. And indeed the bread which I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
(same objection as above)

Joh 7:4 LITV for no one does anything in secret and himself seeks to be in public. If You do these things, reveal Yourself to the world.
(Jesus' brothers were telling him to go to Jerusalem during the feast and show himself, that is, it is not meant to show himself to the world, eg everyone without exception, but those who were attending the Feast of the Tabernacles)

Joh 7:7 LITV The world cannot hate you; but it hates Me because I witness about it, that its works are evil.
(since some love Christ Jesus, "world" can't mean everyone without exception)

Joh 12:19 LITV Then the Pharisees said to themselves, Observe that you gain nothing. Behold, the world has gone after Him.
(plainly, not everyone without exception was "going after" Christ, the Pharisees themselves being the most obvious exception!! lol)

Joh 12:47 LITV And if anyone hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come that I might judge the world, but that I might save the world.
(the whole world is not saved)

Joh 14:17 LITV the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.
(but some do recieve Him, so "world" can't mean everyone without exception)

Joh 14:19 LITV Yet a little while and the world no longer sees Me, but you see Me. Because I live, you also shall live.
(Jesus had not literally appeared before every single person without exception)

Joh 15:18 LITV If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it has hated you.
(the whole world doesn't hate Jesus)

Joh 16:20 LITV Truly, truly, I say to you that you will weep and will lament, but the world will rejoice. And you will be grieved, but your grief will become joy.
(the whole world, everyone without exception, will not rejoice at Christ's death, as this verse plainly says)

Joh 17:14 LITV I have given them Your Word, and the world hated them because they are not of the world, as I am not of the world.
(not everyone in the world, without exception, hated the disciples)

etc etc