the Dead in Christ? Do they exist?

In Matt 22 Christ said "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the living" - a statement which the Sadducees agreed to instantly for it is key to their argument.

Then Christ points out that the ONLY SOLUTION to the statement God makes to Moses "I AM the God of Abraham" is the resurrection because without it - the statement of God is "false".

This argument - made to the Sadduceess was devastating - they had no answer. It proved the resurrection and the Pharisees (who debated them on that very point constantly) saw that it was devastating to the Sadducees.

This was an argument to a hostile group that was not taking "I-say-so" as "proof".

It is a classic case where Christ enters "debate" and "proves" His point without relying on any "I-say-so" evidence as if the hearer had to "BELIEVE" Christ by faith first - to be convinced.

Note: you can never make a "compelling argument" in a debate format if the starting premise is "have faith in me - not what you know to be true". Christ was USING the Sadducees OWN arguments - that they already believed in - to SHOW the resurrection to be the only solution possible.

Amazing!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Bible does teach that the term "the Dead in Christ" applies to the saints who are now dead and who will be raised at the resurrection we see in Rev 20 just before the Millenium.

But the Catholic argument is that the 2nd coming already happened - and we missed it.

That means Christ came in on the white horse of Rev 19 and with his army - he took all the saints to heaven - then the Rev 20 millenium began - BEFORE the first century ended. We are 1 millenium TOO far already. We missed the 2nd coming AND we are 2000 years passed it - we missed the resurrection of the wicked that happens after the 1000 years too - we missed it by 1000 years. That means we also missed the Lake of Fire - and great white throne judgment of Rev 20 and we missed the New Earth that follow immediately in Rev 21 AND we missed the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven in Rev 21.

But the RCC has another idea - what if the 1000 years of Rev 20 is something like "undefined time that can be extended as far as they like"? Then we only missed the 2nd coming but not the events at the end of chapter 20. What if - huh?

I think they came up with this also during the dark ages - when the bible was not availalbe or was being burned on a regular basis.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Are we not placed into the "death of" Christ when we first recognize that Christ is the chosen lamb of God
and has been crusified.
He did die, didnt he.

and we accept at least this much by faith.

until we also recognize he has been resurrected and has defeated death. we are said to be buried with him. we're still dead in christ. children by faith

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

we accept these truths by faith. and we are still children of God with the seed of his spirit within us. or else how could we hear the spirit communicating these things to us?.
and if we delay in this chioce concerning Christ being raised from the dead..we are still concidered "dead in Christ" waiting for our faith to verify that Christ (along with ourselves) has actually been raised.

now we can read thesselonians when it speaks of the dead in christ being raised first. then we which are alive "in christ" will meet them with the lord in the air.

this is a visual verification of witnessing the resurrection of those dead in christ being raised to life in christ (accepting Jesus as Lord).
while we are still alive. not at the end of time.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

"dead in christ" simply means those who are placed im the death of christ by faith. when we are initially chosen of the father to contain his spirit. they are still physically alive though.

Paul uses colorful and imaginative words..meet in the air. signifying the sinlessness of the new nature as compared to the earth which contains sin.
we meet them in the air with the lord.

just as OT Priests, we meet in the tabernacle temple to commune with our fellow brother (spiritual heaven). only those who are sanctified can enter the tabernacle. those in the present case who accepts christ as their Lord. and forever to be with the lord. the moment in the spirit begins eternity for the believer. sinless and forever to remain this way spiritually based on the righteousness of Christ. this is not a statement about God gathering all peoples at the end of time, but a moment when a believer chooses to trust christ as Lord and has benn tried and successfully completed being Tried.

and paul is simply saying to those already alive in christ to be prepared to greet these new converts to console and congradulate them.
this is the moment that the believer becomes an overcomer. a member of the elect and an ambassador of the living Christ.

not the dead one, that some still believe to not have been risen and defeated death.


Me2

[ June 07, 2003, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

Yes, the "dead in Christ" exist.

From the Catholic catechism:

1001. "When? Definitively 'at the last day,' 'at the end of the world.'[Jn 6: 39-40, 44, 54 ; Jn 11:24 ; LG 48 # 3.] Indeed, the resurrection of the DEAD is closely associated with CHRIST's Parousia:
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the DEAD IN CHRIST will rise first.[1 Thess 4:16.]"

To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/art11.html#OURS
1002. "CHRIST will raise us up 'on the last day'; but it is also true that, IN a certain way, we have already risen with CHRIST. For, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, Christian life is already now on earth a participation IN the death and Resurrection of CHRIST:
And you were buried with him IN Baptism, IN which you were also raised with him through faith IN the working of God, who raised him from the DEAD .... If then you have been raised with CHRIST, seek the things that are above, where CHRIST is, seated at the right hand of God.[Col 2:12 ; Col 3:1 .]"

To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/art11.html#OURS
1005. "To rise with CHRIST, we must die with CHRIST: we must 'be away from the body and at home with the Lord.'[2 cor 5:8.] IN that 'departure' which is death the soul is separated from the body.[Cf. Phil 1:23 .] It will be reunited with the body on the day of resurrection of the DEAD.[Cf. Paul VI, CPG # 28


God Bless

 

The dead in Christ are very much alive in heaven. They are however separated from their bodies. At the 2nd coming they will be re-united with their bodies. As is explained below:

1001. "When? Definitively 'at the last day,' 'at the end of the world.'[Jn 6: 39-40, 44, 54 ; Jn 11:24 ; LG 48 # 3.] Indeed, the resurrection of the DEAD is closely associated with CHRIST's Parousia:
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the DEAD IN CHRIST will rise first.[1 Thess 4:16.]"

To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/art11.html#OURS
1002. "CHRIST will raise us up 'on the last day'; but it is also true that, IN a certain way, we have already risen with CHRIST. For, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, Christian life is already now on earth a participation IN the death and Resurrection of CHRIST:
And you were buried with him IN Baptism, IN which you were also raised with him through faith IN the working of God, who raised him from the DEAD .... If then you have been raised with CHRIST, seek the things that are above, where CHRIST is, seated at the right hand of God.[Col 2:12 ; Col 3:1 .]"

To view the context, please visit http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/art11.html#OURS
1005. "To rise with CHRIST, we must die with CHRIST: we must 'be away from the body and at home with the Lord.'[2 cor 5:8.] IN that 'departure' which is death the soul is separated from the body.[Cf. Phil 1:23 .] It will be reunited with the body on the day of resurrection of the DEAD.[Cf. Paul VI, CPG # 28

God Bless

 

Good point. The "Alive" are contrasted with the "Dead in Christ" those who "have fallen asleep".

Paul could easily have said "The ALIVE in Christ who have fallen asleep" but He makes the point specifically contrasting "The DEAD in Christ" vs "We who ARE Alive and remain".

So it IS proper to call the saints who have died - the "DEAD in Christ".

And then the text of Isaiah 8:19 telling us "NOT to consult the DEAD on behalf of of the living" is easily applicable to "the DEAD in Christ".

Ultimately this is the problem for the RC position. If it admits the 1Thess 4 fact that saints who have died are in fact "The DEAD in Christ" instead of "The ALIVE in Christ" - then Isaiah 8 slams the door shut on "going to the DEAD on BEHALF of the Living" and that would include "the DEAD in Christ".

In Christ,

Bob

 

If that were true - then Christ lied and God "IS the God of the dead" but worse - His entire argument for the resurrection ends SINCE the dead are in fact ALIVE.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Of course the dead in Christ are spiritually alive. When we are “at home with the Lord” we are very much spiritually alive. This is the promise of Jesus Christ. He conquered death for us. Are you saying you believe in the doctrine of "soul sleep"?

2 Corinthians 5:7
for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2Cor 5:7-8

[ June 07, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Bob:
quote:

Do Souls Sleep After Death?
What really happens when you die?
MARIO DERKSEN
Seventh-Day Adventism teaches that when we die, we become unconscious and thus undergo a kind of "sleep" until the Last Day, when Jesus resurrects our bodies. It is not until then that we will go to Heaven or hell. And until that day, we will be unconscious and undergo what they call a "soul sleep."

Catholicism, however, teaches that as soon as a man dies, he undergoes his own individual judgment by God, known as the "Particular Judgment" (there is also a collective judgment at the end of the world, known as the "General Judgment"). Thus, if a man does not undergo purgatory after death (either because he goes to hell or can go to Heaven directly), then his eternal destiny is received immediately--he does not "sleep" or wait for his body to be resurrected, but his soul goes to Heaven or hell right away. ……

http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/sleep.htm


The Bible Disproves Soul Sleep:

Soul Sleep refers to the idea that when we die, our souls cease to exist or at least "fall asleep" and become totally inert, until the end of the world and our resurrection. Various religions have different understandings about exactly how soul sleep works, but in practical terms it would mean that the dead are not conscious in any way, and hence that there are no saints in heaven interceding on our behalf, etc.
Here is an example of a verse that is used to defend soul sleep:

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
The context shows that this verse is not speaking about soul sleep, just as "they have no more reward" is not denying the resurrection of the dead. To show that the author of Ecclesiastes did not believe in soul sleep, one can cite the following verse from the same book:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

That is, the soul has an existence independent of the body, and returns to God at death, etc.


Biblical verses which disprove soul sleep

Here is a list of verses which show that "soul sleep" is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

Revelation 6:9-10
When he broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of all the people who had been killed on account of the word of God, for witnessing to it. They shouted aloud, "Holy, faithful Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth?"

The Bible is saying that martyrs go to heaven before the Judgment. Note that this takes place before the resurrection, before the end of the world, before the Judgment, while life is going on as usual on the earth. Also, the martyrs, despite being "dead", have their own memories, and remember that they have been martyred. So to say that these martyrs "know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) in the sense of being unconscious, or something like that, would be incorrect.

Luke 16:19-31
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Then he said, "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment." Abraham saith unto him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent." And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Lazarus and the rich man have both died, but their souls are still alive, despite the death of their bodies (and the same is true of Abraham). All this takes place before the resurrection of their bodies, while the rich man's brothers are still alive.

1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
If the spirits in prison are dead and "know nothing", then why is Jesus preaching to them?

Luke 12:4
And I say unto you my friends, "Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do."
Here we see that Jesus says that murderers kill only the body, and cannot harm the soul at all. In other words, our soul stays alive, despite anything a murderer might try to do.

2 Corinthians 5:6,8-9
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.... We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
If our soul dies when our body dies, then how can we be "absent" from the body? Yet, the Bible says that we can be with the Lord while absent from our body!

Matthew 22:31-32
...have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Luke 24:37-39
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

If a spirit apart from its body is dead, then surely the Apostles would know this and thus would not have thought that a living Jesus would be a spirit. Also, if the Apostles had been incorrect in believing that a person's soul survives apart from that person's body, then why didn't Jesus correct them instead of encouraging them in this "erroneous" belief they held? In fact, Jesus here says that the spirit exists independently of the body.

Genesis 35:18
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)...
Note that, when Rachel died, her soul departed. It didn't "fall asleep".

John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

Revelation 20:4
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus... they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Note that John saw only the souls of the martyrs.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Note that they are presently suffering, and thus not unconscious.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
That day ("today") was before the resurrection.

Matthew 17:1,3-4
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

Moses had died, (Deuteronomy 34:5 - So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.) and yet, despite being dead, he is able to speak to Jesus.

http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/soulslep.htm

 

Jesus also said that the flesh is of no value, it is the spirit that quickens the flesh. Dead flesh remains dead flesh. The spirit does not die but is set free from the flesh.

So what makes the spirit dead or alive? Faith in God! That is, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If you have such faith you are alive, if you have not faith then you are dead!

At God's Throne of judgment, those that are alive are given over to Jesus, faith in whom makes one alive. Those that are "dead" are cast into the lake of fire, forever.

 

John 11 - thanks for bringing that up.

"Our friend Lazarus has fallen ASLEEP I go that I may WAKE him out of SLEEP" John 11:11

"The disciples thought Jesus was speaking of LITERAL SLEEP" John 11:13

"Lazarus IS Dead" John 11:14

1 thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Kathryn has suggested that the term Paul is using in 1Thess 4 and the one we see in John 11, and the one we see in 1Cor 11:30 and... might be "incorrect".

Is that really the right way to deal with this?

Why not just accept it?

Well because IF we accept it - and the DEAD in Christ are "not to be consulted on behalf of the living" Isaiah 8:19 - then what about prayers to the DEAD in Christ?

Furthermore - IF the DEAD in Christ are "asleep" as Paul describes them - WHO is appearing to Satan's servant in 1Sam 28 as "Samuel"?

On the other hand - maybe we should ignore all this as our Catholic bretheren suggest - Perhaps Christ is conjuring up the dead in Matt 17 - and Moses is good example of a Christian seance with the dead as Kathryn notes?

Or maybe the reference in Jude 9 to the "Assumption of Moses" means that Moses was raised from the dead and assumed bodily into heaven - so that Christ in Matt 17 is NOT conversing with "the Dead in Christ" pre-cross at all.

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 07, 2003, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Note it does NOT say they are CURRENTLY suffering - rather it says that the PREVIOUS historic example IS an example of suffering the vengence of eternal fire. So take a trip - and SEE what is going on in that "example".

Luke 23:42-43
Jesus REMEMBER Me WHEN you come into your kingdom..
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee today, you WILL be with me in paradise."

In John 20 Christ states "I have NOT YET ascended to My Father" - 3 days later.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Question for you, Bob. Was Abraham resurrected when God spoke to Moses? If not, how could Jesus use this as an example that God was the God of the living?

Neal

 

the references of God being a God of the living is a perspective of the mode of operation.

God operates by faith.
He is a God of those who respond in like manner.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Me2

 

quote:Bob speaking of the Matt 22 debate of Christ
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His entire argument for the resurrection ends SINCE the dead are in fact ALIVE.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No he was not resurrected.

Christ makes the point - the SAME point that the Sadducees agree with at the start - "God is NOT the God of the DEAD". They all START there in agreement.

And Christ is pointing out that IF there is NO future resurrection (the very thing that the Sadducees deny when they ask the question "SO IN the Resurrection whose wife WILL she be") - then God should say to Moses "I WAS the God of Abraham while he lived".

But since God said "I AM the God of Abraham" and we ALL agree that Abraham is dead at that time, and we ALL agree that "God is NOT the God of the dead" then the ONLY way out - is that God is GOING to raise Abraham in the future. JUST as God said to him that He was the Father of many nations based on the fact that he WAS GOING to have a son.

This was a devastating form of debate to the Sadducess and the Pharisees "recognized that Christ had put the Sadducees to Silence" Matt 22:34.


His argument was devastating and iron-clad BECAUSE it argues the point FROM the perspective of the Sadducees - taking points that were common ground and correct and then SHOWING by the bit of truth that they STILL held correctly - that the future resurrection IS the only solution.

Amazing strategy and logic used by Christ in one of the few open debates he agreed to enter.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:Neal
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was Abraham resurrected when God spoke to Moses? If not, how could Jesus use this as an example that God was the God of the living?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bingo!

Rom 4:17 the zinger - takes it home. Good one Sola!

In Christ,

Bob