That Which Is Perfect

Regardless of your what you think you know about me...that is what I beliieve and I stick by what I wrote previously.

Thanks for the scripture quotes ...but I have a copy of God's perfect word. Or "That which is made perfect"

 

13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--Prophecies, tongues, and (revelatory) knowledge will all cease at some time. These are gifts that specifically deal with revelation. Prophecy, as explained in verses 9 and 10, and also in chapter 14 was a gift that was used to edify the church, to teach doctrine. It was not always used in the sense of foretelling the future, but more in the sense of forthtelling or preaching the Word. However, God did give prophecies as well, up until the time the Word of God was complete. Tongues (with interpretation only) was given to edify the church. It was also a prophetic gift just like the gift of prophecy, but used when people of another language were present, and used for a sign to the unbelieving Jew (1Cor.14:21,22). Knowledge (not common knowledge which can never cease, but revelatory knowledge), special revelation from God, was also a prophetic gift of God, given because the New Testament had not yet been completed. All these gifts worked in conjunction with each other to supplement the Old Testament and give the New Testament revelation that the early believers needed, because they did not have the completed Word of God. The knew in part (that is, they had part of the Bible—the Old Testament, and they prophesied in part—to make up for the part that they did not have—the New Testament. That is why these gifts were given. They were temporary gifts, given “until that which was perfect was come.”

The word, “that” is a neuter pronoun, and therefore, cannot refer to a masculine object, such as Jesus Christ. “That” must refer to the Word of God. Keep in memory the context. The context is revelation. It is not the coming of Christ. It is not the eternal state. It is not the Kingdom of Christ. It is revelation. When that which is perfect is come (the perfect revelation of God—the completed Bible), then that which is in part (the incomplete, the temporary gifts of revelation) will be done away. They will cease, vanish, be done away with. They will no longer be needed, because everything that we will need will be revealed for us in the perfect (completed) Word of God. This is the only interpretation that makes any sense, given the context of this passage and the following verses also in chapter 14—revelation. When that which is perfect (the Bible) is come, then that which is in part (temporary spiritual gifts), shall be done away with.
We have the completed, perfected Word of God. Tongues, prophesies, and revelatory knowledge all passed away by the end of the first century with the completion of the Word of God.
DHK

 

I never said "that" refered to Jesus Christ. See my above post.

Do you see face to face?

How was knowledge done away?

What about "but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."?

God Bless

 

The entire context is about "revelation," that is, the revelation of God's Word. It is not about authority. It is not about Peter and the keys. It is not about the Pope. It is about the Word of God, God's revelation to mankind. God spoke to mankind in that period of time through prophesies, tongues and revelatory knowledge. It was for a specific period of time (the apostolic age, or first century). Now God speaks to us through His Word.

This is a metaphor. It is used in James 1 also.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

In verse 23 James says that if you only hear the Word and not obey it you are like the one who stands in front of the mirror, walks away and forgets whether you have brushed your hair, shaved, washed up, etc. What good does it do to have a mirror when upon looking into it you don't do anything about what you see??
In verse 25 he says, whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty (God's Word is always perfect), and coontinues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed. Why shall he be blessed? Because he acts on what he sees in the mirror of God's Word. The mirror of God's Word reflects back the condition of my heart, and tells me how I ought to obey God.

Paul uses the same illustration in 1Cor. 13.
DHK

 

1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity , it profiteth me nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:4
Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up ,

1 Corinthians 13:5
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

1 Corinthians 13:6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

1 Corinthians 13:7
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth : but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child , I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things .

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.

You missed the point of the whole chapter beginning to end. This chapter is about charity__not the Bible. "And now abideth faith, hope, and charity, these three, and the greatest is charity". "When that which is perfect comes" the rest will not be needed, we will see face to face. We won't even need hope because we will have Jesus Christ, and we will know as we have been known. Read in context the subject is charity, not the Bible or speaking in tongues.

God Bless

 

Kathryn,
I know the context very well. The overall context is spiritual gifts. Chapters 12,13, and 14 all speak of spiritual gifts. I will show you the context.
Two lists of spiritual gifts are given in chapter 12:
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

and:
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

In the list given in verse 28, all the gifts are listed in order: "first, secondarily, thirdly, and after that..." It is by no accident that Paul listed "tongues" as the least important of all the gifts. And yet Charismatics put it as the most important as all the gifts.
In verses 29,30 Paul makes it abundantly clear that not all have the same gifts.
Then in verse 31 he says that they are to desire earnestly the best gifts (such as teaching or prophecy). And then he says "I show unto you a more excellent way--the way of love--a gift that is greater than the aforementioned gifts. It is in chapter 13 that we have one of the most beautifully written chapters of Scripture. But it is still in the context of spiritual gifts, and in specific, those sign gifts having directly to do with the revelation of God's Word.

From 13:1 to 13:7 is a beautiful description of love. Then from verse eight Paul brings back the topic to spiritual gifts once again. He really never left the topic to begin with. He is contrasting three groups of gifts:
1. permanent gifts
2. semi-permanent gifts.
3. temporary gifts.

There is only one permanent gift, and that is love. Love never ends. It abides forever. The greatest of these is love. (13:8,13) This is the greatest gift for it will never end.

There are two semi-permanent gifts: faith and hope, which are mentioned in verse 13. How long will faith and hope last?
"We walk by faith and not by sight" When Jesus comes we no longer will need faith. For we shall see him as He is.
Likewise, the same is true with hope. Christ is our hope. When Christ our hope is come, we will have no more need of hope.
Thus both faith and hope end at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are three temporary gifts (tongues, prophesies, and revelatory knowledge). These all ceased at the close of the first century when their function had been completed. When the Word of God was completed these gifts were no longer needed. They ceased. Chapter 14 goes on speaking about spiritual gifts as well--primarily the abuse of tongues as compared to the usefulness of prophesy in edifying the church. But again these gifts were for first century Christians who did not have the perfect completed Word of God. You cannot confine the context of 13:8-13 to the subject of love. You must look at the overall context.
DHK

 

The context is 1 Cor 13:1-13 the whole chapter.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known .

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.


If what you say is true, St. Paul never got his dream. He never saw that perfect Bible.

God Bless

 

No, the bible is not that which is not perfect and then is...

These passages are speaking as a child like faith sees jesus..initially as their Christ.

that which is perfect is "formed in you"...

is the revelation that

Jesus Christ is Lord.

and that He is the Son of God

Me2

 

That is quite true. Paul died before the completion of the Word of God. He was looking to the future. He said, "But then.." Even as he was writing some of those gifts were beginning to die out already.
DHK

 

When that which is perfect comes, Paul says he shall know even as also I am known.

There was no perfect Bible in his lifetime. Must be when he sees Jesus Christ face to face, and realizes the object of his faith and hope.

God Bless

 

Paul never said "The Word of God is not perfect yet". No such statement in all of scripture - in fact.

Rather Paul tells Timothy that the scriptures "ARE SUFFICIENT" in 2 Tim 3:16.

There is no statement in 1Cor 13 saying "The scriptures are not yet sufficient" or "God's Word is not yet perfect" - neither is there any such statement in all of the Bible.

The focus of "SEEING in a glass darkly - but then in that future day - when Christ comes - face to Face" for we shall "See him as he is".

But until then we live in HOPE. But Hope that is SEEN is no longer hope (as Paul states in Romans 8) and so the entire focus of the NT saints had been on Christ's return NOT in the "perfecting of the imperfect Word of God".

Peter states "Fix your hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Your logic fails you. Paul didn't see Christ until after death; likewise the Bible wasn't completed until after his death. Both were yet future events.

(MacDonald, Believers Commentary)

 

In Christ,

Bob

 

In Christ,

Bob

 

DHK:

That is my point! Yes, St Paul is speaking of a future event. ("when that which is perfect comes"___a future event.)

That is why Paul says "now" and "then".

" now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known". (St. Paul)

At the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13 he was still alive. He was looking forward to a future event, for all Christians, including himself. That is why he speaks of this happening in the future to himself.

St. Paul never saw a perfect bible so "when that which is perfect comes" can not be the Bible. He did however die and he sees Jesus Christ face to face and knows even as also he is known.

For us, we still see for now through a glass darkly and abide in faith, hope, and charity.

God Bless

 

Paul did not know when he would die.
He did not know when Christ was going to come.
He did not know when the Bible would be complete.

All three events were future events at the time of his writing. Hindsight is better than foresight. Paul indeed expected to see the fulfillment of the completed Scriptures; just as he fully expected to see the Coming of Christ.
DHK

 

DHK, you say:

St. Paul in Holy Scripture says this will happen to him when that which is perfect comes. He comforted himself and the other Christians that for now faith, hope, and charity abide.

You have no way of knowing that St. Paul expected to live to see the completed perfect Bible. That is coming out of thin air.

God Bless

 

You are the one that is inserting into the context of revelation, spiritual gifts, and the context of the Bible itself, "the second coming," or "seeing Christ." Look at the context. Before and after, it is not talking of the second coming or the afterlife. It is speaking of spiritual gifts in relation to the revelation of God's Word. That is the context here; not the second coming. You are the one that is off base as far as context is concerned. How can you say that he is speaking of seeing Christ when he has not referred to such a topic even once in this context?
DHK

 

St. Paul says, "now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." This is true. Then he will see face to face. St. Paul would not tell us what would happen to him, if it was never going to happen to him.

For now we still need faith and hope. Charity however will endure forever.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity. 1 Corinthians 13:13



God Bless

 

I have explained these verses many times over, but you insist on reposting the same thing over and over again.
Again, the key is context. The topic is spiritual gifts given in the immediate context of the revelation of God's Word; not the coming of Christ.
"Now I know in part." Paul says he knows in part because he only has part of the Word of God--the Old Testament.
"But then shall I know even as also I am known." When the Word of God is complete it will be as a mirror reflecting who I really am. It will show me more perfectly than anything that has existed before.
"face to face" It will be a mirror, just as James describes it in James 1, reflecting my trueself. BTW, James was one of the first NT books to be written. Paul probably already knew of James metaphor of the Bible to a mirror.
When "that" (neuter pronoun--referring to the Word of God) is perfect is come, then that which is in part (sign gifts) shall be done away.
DHK