Marks of a Cult

Don't worry about it atestring! They didn't believe the Lord either.

BTW atestring, after reading one of Marcia's links, have you ever heard anyone that spoke in tongues for the very 'FIRST TIME' call it the "gift of tongues?"
I did not read Marcia's links but the answer is no.
When I have been around people that Spoke in MEE </font>[/QUOTE]I have not read Marcia's links.
i can only answer by my own experiences.
I have never been around someone that spoke in Tongues for the first time that labeled this as anything. They only talked about how much they love Jesus or thay may talk about the joy or peace that they have. I had a friend that spoke in tongues for the first time as we were praying together and he told me with tears in his eyes that he felt like Ahe was sitting in his fathers lap. I happened to know his father and knew that his father did not beleve in showing emotion and affection because he believed that it was not manly. This is not the way our Heavenly Father is. I took it that our Heavenly Father was giving him somehting that his earthly father failed to give him.

 

The Mormons have invented three gods whom they call Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Mormons retain the words but they change the meaning of the words. In the same way, the Oneness groups have invented a false god who is robed in flesh. They retain the name Christ but change the meaning of the name. Their false god saves no one because he is neither God nor man. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

 

The Mormons have invented three gods whom they call Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Mormons retain the words but they change the meaning of the words. In the same way, the Oneness groups have invented a false god who is robed in flesh. They retain the name Christ but change the meaning of the name. Their false god saves no one because he is neither God nor man. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12 </font>[/QUOTE]John, maybe you should break down how you think Oneness saints believe when it comes to the name of Jesus.

BTW, what false god are you referring to?

One more thing, you never answered my question on page 5!

MEE

 

tamborine lady,

No that was me, and as far as I am concerned you can use either word, but some get a little cranky if you dont use the word they use, as you probably know.

Praise the Lord \o/, the part about them "coming to get you" for using a different word than they use isnt really going to happen.

God bless,

Mike

 

Posted by D28 guy:

I think I posted this by mistake before I could add my remarks. Ooops!

The words "The Trinity" are not in the Bible, as I think you know, D28. So why are you asking me that?

The bottom line is this - if to be Christian means to believe in the God of the Bible, then that God is God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit, shown in the Bible to be distinct, equal, eternal beings/persons. It is not 3 gods. So either it is one God appearing as 3 but who are actually all the same being, which scripture does not teach; or it is 3 beings in one Godhead. If one does not believe in the God of the Bible, one cannot be a Christian; it's that simple. That applies to Mormons, New Agers, Muslims, Oneness followers, JW's, etc. If you are Trinitarian, I don't understand why you don't know this or why you have a problem with this. How can you believe that someone who rejects the God of the Bible, which is the Trinitarian God, is saved?

Go to this link and scroll down a bit until you see the heading, "The Trinity." There are several articles under that that substantiate this from scripture.
http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm

 

D28, you say you are a Trinitarian. I assume by that that you believe the Bible teaches the Trinitarian God. Jesus said to beware of false teachers. A false teaching is something that goes against what the Bible teaches. The oneness God goes against the God taught in the Bible, and is therefore a false teaching. We are to reject such.

Gal 1.8 says that even if an angel comes with another gospel than what has been taught, let him be condemned. The gospel is not just that Jesus died for our sins (the Mormons say as much) but it is who Jesus is. If Jesus is the same being as God the Father and as the HS, as he is in Oneness, then this is not the Jesus of the Bible. According to you, you would agree with this.

The Oneness movement does not just teach One God but they are anti-Trinitarian. They teach that the Trinitarian God is false; they openly reject it. This is not just another understanding of God; it is a false understanding and a rejection of the Biblical understanding.

Here's another link (on the UPC) and an excerpt:
http://www.watchman.org/cults/upc.htm

D28, if you have no problem with the Oneness teaching, then there is nothing else I can say to you, imo.

 

Marcia,

I'm glad to hear that you dont care if the word Trinity is used. I have known people who actually pray "Hail Holy Trinity" when they pray, and actually say that if one does not use that word, they are lost.

Agree completly.

Now...you say that to use the word "person"(and thats the word I use) is OK. And to use the word "being" is OK. The person I was referring to, whom everyone else was condemning, acknowledged all of that, except that he happened to be more comfortable using the word "manifestations"...and was immedietly condemned for that. ("Manifestation", as I'm sure you know, means to "make known", or "reveal".)

He did not deny that the Father is God. He did not deny that Christ is God. He did not deny that the Holy Spirit is God. He acknowledged that "Jesus is Lord". He acknlwedged that in these 3 "manifestations" of God each had different functions and sometimes interacted with one another.

But he was condemned and deemed "hellbound" for picking one word incorrectly.

Are you saying that saying "persons" will get one to heaven, saying the word "beings" will get one to heaven, but that the poor unfortunate soul who happens to use the word "manifestations" will be eternally condemned for that unfortunet mistake?

Condemned for picking the wrong word?

Now wait a minute. You say this..."So either it is one God appearing as 3 but who are actually all the same being, which scripture does not teach"

If someone, lets say a muslim or someone, comes to you and says "Marcia, so you believe in 3 Gods?"

You are probably going to say, as I would... "No. There is only one God."

Which is what the people you are condemning are saying. I dont agree with "every jot and tittle" of their explanations, but they back up every word of it from the scriptures. I dont believe that they are interpreting all of the scriptures correctly, but they are free to their convictions.

Again, I agree completly regarding the JW's, Mormons, Universalists, and many many others, but here it seems that we are going beyond the scriptures on this one, and are choosing to condemn only because of what some fallible council of men said long after the scriptures were closed.

These people acknowledge that the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus Christ is God. They acknowedge that these 3 beings interact with one another at times, and have different forms of activity and ministry. They acknowledge that "Jesus is Lord", and they do not "deny the Son".

And yet you say they are "denying the God of the bible", because their understanding of the intricicies of how the 3 persons of the Godhead interact with one another is different han ours?

Are you willing to say that you have total and complete and 100% perfect understanding of God?

You posted...

And then said...

1st of all, the individual person I was referring to did not claim to be a classical "Oneness pentecostal".

And secondly, I didnt say that I dont have problems with Oneness teachings. I do. And to be honest, some of what you posted from the Ankerberg show disturbs me much more (because the scriptures speak to those issues) than what you are now trying to convince me of.(because the scriptures really dont)

As I said earlier, I am a "sola scriptura" guy. And I asked you to prove some things to me from the scriptures alone, and you didnt even once attempt to prove them to me from the scriptures. You showed me lots of scripture that I specifically asked you not to show me, because I already acknowledge all of that.

Jesus Christ is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. They intereact with one another, so they arent all the same being bouncing back and forth all the time. There is one God, not 3.

I know all of that.

I wanted specific scriptures that show that the understanding of the triune nature of God must be understood precisely as we understand it and articulated exactly as we articulate it, of the person goes to hell.

You couldnt show me that because it isnt there. All of that comes from the declarations of fallible men, at various times in the centuries of church history, but not the scriptures.

In the scriptures we find that a person does not know God if they...

Do not acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.

If they deny the Son.

If they deny justification through faith alone.

But we find nothing in the scriptures which say that one must "acknowledge the word trinity" and/or understand the triune nature of God exactly as "trinitarians" do, or you are lost.

Let me go back to this that I said earlier...

When they articulate their understanding of the triune nature of God, as I said earlier, I dont agree with every "jot and tittle", but they acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, they dont deny the Son, and they acknowledge the diety of all 3.

But...this causes me great problems...

Now, this is something that is very serious, much more serious than articulating the triune nature of God differently than we do.

If this is the "hard and fast" rule in the Oneness Pentecostal camp, then this is a direct contradition of justification by faith alone, and as a matter of fact God, in Galaciens, specifically curses any gospel that includes any of our "doing" along with faith alone for justification.

Again, as a "sola scriptura" guy, I am much more concerned when someone denies something that the scriptures point out as worthy of condemnation, rather then things that merely the "wisdom of men" say is.

I very much hope that in the "oneness" camp there is freedom regarding justification by faith alone. That can...without a doubt...have eternal consequences.

God bless you richly, Marcia...

Mike

 

I'm curious--where is it written in Scriptures that we are to turn only to Scriptures for the truth, and that only the Scriptures have God's guarantee of truth?

 

The UPC does not believe that God was a "Person" until He was born of the virgin Mary.

God is the 'Spirit' that dwelled in the Son/Flesh, which was Jesus Christ...only one person and one Spirit and He did it all!


If Trinitarians say that God was the father of Jesus, why was it that the Holy Ghost was the one by which Jesus (Son/Flesh) was conceived?

Matthew 1:20)...fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

This is an age old debate that could go on and on, but I choose to believe in only "One God."

I don't want to debate this subject; just want to clear up the error about the UPC's belief.

MEE

 

Doubting Thomas,

If we were on a thread with that as the topic, you would see a virtual "flood" of scriptures from those who understand that truth.

God thunders that truth from the scriptures.

God bless,

Mike

 

Mee,

Because all 3 are God, and that is simply the way in which God chose to cause Mary to be impregnated.

When Jesus prayed, in Matthew 26:39, He prayed...

"Oh my Father, if it is possible..."

Was He lying? ? Intentionlly trying to decieve?

He prayed to God, and referred to Him as His Father, because God was His Father.

God bless,

Mike

 

CONVENIENT USE OF THE WORD "Cult"

I think that the word "Cult" is very much abused. Christianity itself was at one time was labeled as a Cult. Jesus Himself was looked down upon by His own people and even crucified on a cross.

I have noticed that if people want to quickly shed a bad light upon a denomination without having to work too hard then all they have to do is label them as a "Cult". Unfortunately, so many people out there who are too lazy to actually investigate what a Church ACTUALLY does believe will just automatically accept that Cult label and shun the Church just because of what they have heard about it.

In reality people ought to go straight to the source and investigate what a Church actually teaches and not what someone told them they teach, and then they ought to compare what that Church teaches with the Scriptures.

I have been through experiences where people in Christian forums will have a certain preconceived opinions about a certain Denomination and be prejudiced about it for whatever reasons. But then when they are presented with the ACTUAL beliefs that the Church holds to, they are astonished to find out that what they have been told was a complete distortion of the facts. And that is why it is so very wrong to use the "Cult" weapon.

I have even been to Christian forums where they will not allow people of any other Denominational beliefs to be participants in their discussions, while at the same time having discussions about other Churches being a "Cult".

A real Cult Leader does not want those he has control over to hear anyone else's views but their own, for fear that those he has a hold of will have a chance to think for themselves and make a decision contrary to what the Cult Leader wishes for them to believe. Like the Moonies for instance, who want people to become secluded from everyone else. Or like Jim Jones... what Denominational beliefs did he have? That's another point... just because someone such as Jim Jones was a Cult Leader, does not automatically mean that we should conclude that his entire Denomination is a Cult. We have to have some common sense.

 

THE BIBLE ALONE?

In one sense we are to turn to the Bible alone for enlightenment, but in another sense we need to understand that the Bible tells us God will always use human beings to convey His messages to us. God's Church will have the gift of Prophecy. And so if we neglect to accept a true Prophet of God then we are going against "the Bible alone" because the Bible itself tells us,
1Thes:5:20: "Despise not prophesyings."

The Bible also says: 1Cor:14:32: And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." And so a true Prophet must not contradict what has already been written in the Scriptures.

Before the entrance of sin, Adam enjoyed open communion with his Maker; but since man separated himself from God by transgression, the human race has been cut off from this high privilege. By the plan of redemption, however, a way has been opened whereby the inhabitants of the earth may still have connection with heaven. God has communicated with men by His Spirit, and divine light has been imparted to the world by revelations to His chosen servants. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21.

During the first twenty-five hundred years of human history, there was no written revelation. Those who had been taught of God, communicated their knowledge to others, and it was handed down from father to son, through successive generations. The preparation of the written word began in the time of Moses. Inspired revelations were then embodied in an inspired book. This work continued during the long period of sixteen hundred years--from Moses, the historian of creation and the law, to John, the recorder of the most sublime truths of the gospel.

The Bible points to God as its author; yet it was written by human hands; and in the varied style of its different books it presents the characteristics of the several writers. The truths revealed are all "given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16); yet they are expressed in the words of men. The Infinite One by His Holy Spirit has shed light into the minds and hearts of His servants. He has given dreams and visions, symbols and figures; and those to whom the truth was thus revealed have themselves embodied the thought in human language.

The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine, and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14.

Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony.

As presented through different individuals, the truth is brought out in its varied aspects. One writer is more strongly impressed with one phase of the subject; he grasps those points that harmonize with his experience or with his power of perception and appreciation; another seizes upon a different phase; and each, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, presents what is most forcibly impressed upon his own mind--a different aspect of the truth in each, but a perfect harmony through all. And the truths thus revealed unite to form a perfect whole, adapted to meet the wants of men in all the circumstances and experiences of life.

God has been pleased to communicate His truth to the world by human agencies, and He Himself, by His Holy Spirit, qualified men and enabled them to do this work. He guided the mind in the selection of what to speak and what to write. The treasure was entrusted to earthen vessels, yet it is, nonetheless, from Heaven. The testimony is conveyed through the imperfect expression of human language, yet it is the testimony of God; and the obedient, believing child of God beholds in it the glory of a divine power, full of grace and truth.

In His word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience. "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16, 17, R.V.

Yet the fact that God has revealed His will to men through His word, has not rendered needless the continued presence and guiding of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the Spirit was promised by our Saviour, to open the word to His servants, to illuminate and apply its teachings. And since it was the Spirit of God that inspired the Bible, it is impossible that the teaching of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the word.

The Spirit was not given--nor can it ever be bestowed-- to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Says the apostle John, "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1. And Isaiah declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.

Great reproach has been cast upon the work of the Holy Spirit by the errors of a class that, claiming its enlightenment, profess to have no further need of guidance from the word of God. They are governed by impressions which they regard as the voice of God in the soul. But the spirit that controls them is not the Spirit of God. This following of impressions, to the neglect of the Scriptures, can lead only to confusion, to deception and ruin. It serves only to further the designs of the evil one. Since the ministry of the Holy Spirit is of vital importance to the church of Christ, it is one of the devices of Satan, through the errors of extremists and fanatics, to cast contempt upon the work of the Spirit and cause the people of God to neglect this source of strength which our Lord Himself has provided.

In harmony with the word of God, His Spirit was to continue its work throughout the period of the gospel dispensation. During the ages while the Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament were being given, the Holy Spirit did not cease to communicate light to individual minds, apart from the revelations to be embodied in the Sacred Canon. The Bible itself relates how, through the Holy Spirit, men received warning, reproof, counsel, and instruction, in matters in no way relating to the giving of the Scriptures. And mention is made of prophets in different ages, of whose utterances nothing is recorded. In like manner, after the close of the canon of the Scripture, the Holy Spirit was still to continue its work, to enlighten, warn, and comfort the children of God.

Jesus promised His disciples, "The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: . . . and He will show you things to come." John 14:26; 16:13. Scripture plainly teaches that these promises, so far from being limited to apostolic days, extend to the church of Christ in all ages. The Saviour assures His followers, "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. And Paul declares that the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit were set in the church "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:12, 13.

For the believers at Ephesus the apostle prayed, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and . . . what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe." Ephesians 1:17-19. The ministry of the divine Spirit in enlightening the understanding and opening to the mind the deep things of God's holy word, was the blessing which Paul thus besought for the Ephesian church.

After the wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Peter exhorted the people to repentance and baptism in the name of Christ, for the remission of their sins; and he said: "Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38, 39.

In immediate connection with the scenes of the great day of God, the Lord by the prophet Joel has promised a special manifestation of His Spirit. Joel 2:28. This prophecy received a partial fulfillment in the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost; but it will reach its full accomplishment in the manifestation of divine grace which will attend the closing work of the gospel.

In this time of peril the followers of Christ are to bear to the world the warning of the Lord's second advent; and a people are to be prepared to stand before Him at His coming, "without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:14. At this time the special endowment of divine grace and power is not less needful to the church than in apostolic days.

 

That is certainly debatable. On the contrary, Scripture does indeed point to the Church and (Apostolic)Tradition as also being authoritative as they also have their source in Christ. But, I guess that would be the topic of another thread....

 

As D28 wrote, it's because this is the way God chose for the Incarnation to take place. However, in a sense, when One Person is said to do something the other Two are there as well since you can't separate Them into three gods. However, God did reveal Himself as Father, Son, and Spirit and these are not merely three roles He assumes at different "times".

Trinitarians believe in only One God as well. However, this One God exists as Three Persons. One ousia and three hypostases.

 

I am actually unconcerned with what "the early church" said. We have no guarentee that anything "the early church" said is true or not. It is the scriptures, and only the scriptures that we are to turn, because it is only the scriptures that have Gods guarentee of truth.

Mike
</font>[/QUOTE]Huh?

So you're not going for "condemnation by labeling"??

How about "proven wrong by popular consent"??

Labeling by popular consent?

At what point in time has the truth been "popular"?

Now having said all that - I do take issue with your statement about the Trinity not being true. It's just that I suspect that if I toss a label at you - you will just let it bounce off and hit the ground.

IN Christ,

Bob

[ June 14, 2004, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

The problem with that - is that the statement made in the thread about "The Bible Alone" was said in the context of "establishing" or "refuting" doctrine. (I think it was said in the context of wanting the doctrine of the Trinity proven by the Bible alone).

And in that context - you can not rely on 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts (special revelation for example) as "proof" for doctrine. The test for doctrine remains "sola scriptura" EVEN if you accept the truth of 1Cor 12 and continued spiritual gifts.

There is never a time when you can either challenge or sustain a doctrinal point apart from "Sola scriptura".

In Christ,

Bob

 

I'm curious--where is it written in Scriptures that we are to turn only to Scriptures for the truth, and that only the Scriptures have God's guarantee of truth? </font>[/QUOTE]In one sense you are correct. God never said that at some point in time all Christians would be liars.

When we observe that 2+2=4. It is truth - though not scripture.

When we observe how a plant grows - we are learning truth - but not scripture.

When a Pastor speaks - he may often speak truth - but not every word came from scripture.

And when one of the 1Cor 12 gifts is exercised you may find God again communicating truth - but not scripture.

In 1Cor 14 - they had many prophets - but none were writing scripture.

However the point you are responding to, is a valid one, which is that the Word of God is the anchor of all truth and is the rule by which all truth is to be judged/tested/vetted.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Posted by D28Guy:

The Oneness groups are not articulating the triune nature of God differently, they are believing in a God of a different nature.

You also mentioned someone being condemned for using the word "manifest" or something like that. I would not say one should be condemned for that -- what counts is what he means by it. Most Oneness groups have a statement like this:
"God manifests as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." That is somewhat ambiguous and it is used to express their view that God is not distinct 3 Persons or Beings but only takes on 3 roles or modalities (hence, "modalism").

So if the word "manifested" was being used to express the non-Trinitarian God, then yes, that is a problem.

It is not just an issue of how one expresses God, D28, it is what kind of God is being believed in.

The Oneness God is NOT the Trinitarian God and therefore, it is a different God and is to be rejected. As I pointed out, the Oneness groups openly deny the Trinitarian God. They are not just saying, "This is how we see/understand God." They are also saying, "We reject the Trinitarian God."

From the UPC website, whose link I will NOT post per the rules here, you can see they consciously choose to REJECT the Trinity:

We are commanded to defend the faith; we are commanded to reject false teachers. To believe in a God of a different nature than the Trinitarian God is an attack on the Biblical nature of God; hence, is it is anathema or condemned (Gal 1.8).

 

The UPC does not believe that God was a "Person" until He was born of the virgin Mary.

God is the 'Spirit' that dwelled in the Son/Flesh, which was Jesus Christ...only one person and one Spirit and He did it all!
</font>[/QUOTE]Mee, thanks for your clarification. Those were not my words but from a site I quoted, but thanks anyway.

I also want to clarify something. When Trinitarians say there are 3 Persons in the Godhead, they do not mean "person" in the sense of human being. So for us, Jesus was a Person in the Godhead before he incarnated as a human being. The word "person" is being used for convenience; some say "being."