Praying to the dead - conjuring the dead

Not so easy as you think. If you are interested in this discussion start another thread on it. Many of us have already been down this road already.
DHK

 

Maybe for people who don't know how to use a concordance and other tools, to find out where/how words are used in the Bible.

Not interested.

 

Ok, you are right, I didn't make myself clear enough. Do you plan on spending eternity in your body the way it is NOW is what I meant! Then it should be simple for you. WHY would God send you to heaven at death, and then have Jesus return you to your body when the Second Advent occurs? Jesus, did HE go to heaven before He was Glorified? We are going to do EXACTLY what He did, otherwise He would be the ONLY fruit from the dead! We are going to do EXACTLY what He did. From the time He died, until the time He was raised from the dead by God, DID HE GO TO HEAVEN?

There is absolutely NO scriptural support for that. There is not one single verse that states that YOU leave your body in the form of a spirit, go to heaven, and then are going to be brought back down in spirit form, reinserted into your body, and then changed. YOU are going to SLEEP, just as the Bible said. It DOES NOT say that your BODY is sleeping. It said the SAINTS are sleeping. It said that the DEAD IN CHRIST are sleeping. It does not say the BODY is sleeping.

Ok, that was a trick statement. body=clay and spirit=breath. You caught it! You are not A spirit and A body. You are a living soul, a nephesh chay, made up of clay and breath or body and spirit.

Ok, it's not that part that doesn't make sense. You are missing the point and arguing semantics. I say 'new' you say 'changed'. Please respond to the POINT. Why would Jesus come to earth, and take those who are ALREADY in heaven to their old bodies but them back, only to turn around and change them? You don't get it do you? You don't have anything that can go to heaven yet! Did you see that question? I posted it to someone else, I think.

Show me from the Bible where it says that man has ANYTHING that can go to heaven RIGHT NOW.

Well of course it doesn't make sense, you cut the paragraph in half! I am NOT changing the meaning of BRING. He is bringing the dead in Christ with Him because He is going to raise them from the dead BEFORE He changes the living. So MID AIR He is going to raise and change the dead, BRING them with Him to earth, and change the living. WE WILL NOT prevent those who are ASLEEP.

I issue you a challenge. Find one verse that says that your spirit is going to go to heaven. Just one. Also, show me in that passage where it says just your body is going to be sleeping. When Lazarus of Bethany died, and Jesus WOKE HIM UP was it just his body that was sleeping? Where did his spirit go for 3 days? This should be good.

I'm glad you noted that. The rich man and lazarus is a wonderful parable. There are others too.

Because THAT is what a parable is.

Interesting perspective, so are you rocky soil or thorn infested soil? Are you one of the virgins that had oil, or did you run out? A parable is not a story at all, it is an object lesson. It is intended to make you think. You read it, and you must use wisdom to perceive what should replace the words used, to gain the understanding. Why is it that everyone wants to take the Rich man and Lazarus parable literally? Why do you? Do you take all the others literall? Are you going to starve yourself so that you can shrink and be the size of a grain of mustard seed? There are LOTS of parables in the teachings of Christ, and not ONE of them are LITERAL! They are all 'cloaks' so that only the wise know what He meant.

I guess they were all hoping to end up in Abrahams bosom. Right? That's why it is the ONLY place in scripture that place is spoken of, right? That's why ALL the Jew's said to their loved ones, 'I'll see you in Abrahams bosom'!!!! RIGHT??? DO you know what the OT Saints said when they knew they were dying? "I am going to SLEEP with my fathers". SLEEP. Not 'my body will sleep while I go to Abrahams bosom', but I AM going to sleep!

Do you know how rediculous that is? The idea that all the Jews ACTUALLY believed that they were going to a place in the lower parts of the earth with a great gulf fixed between them where they would be able to see the wicked being tormented, while they sat in Abrahams lap!


Here is what they believed:

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1Ki 1:21 Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

And suprisingly enough, SO DID the Apostles!

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

And for some odd reason they thought that it had been going on SINCE CREATION!!! What a bunch of wackos!

Seriously though. Even the wackos knew what was going to happen to them when they died!

You want to know how we know the truth? READ THE WORD.

Unlearned men, and learned men alike can READ THE WORD.

Where is David? Is he in heaven right now? Do you think he is hanging out with Samuel and Jacob?

The Bible tells us where he is.

READ THE WORD.

"So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David." 1 Kings 2:10

Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (speaking of Jesus)
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

David spoke of Christ, in a Messianic prophecy, that HIS SOUL would not see corruption. Not His body, but HIS SOUL. That is because your body, without the SPIRIT (the breath of LIFE) is DEAD. When Christ DIED, the Spirit which animated Him went back to God, and He was DEAD. D.E.A.D. DEAD. But God did NOT leave His SOUL in HELL!!! What the hell would Jesus's SOUL be doing in HELL!!! That is simple. Hell is the GRAVE. And on top of all that, Jesus's body did not corrupt. It didn't start to decay, not even one bit. He woke up on the third day, in perfect condition, and with His wounds healed to boot!

They are all sleeping.

Look up Solomon. Look at what happened when he died. Look at Jeraboam. They ALL slept with their fathers.

Now unless you think there was some incest going on, you must agree that means that they were dead.

If it means they were dead, then not only did the Jews believe in Soul Sleep but so did Peter.

I doubt very seriously that Peter would have told that entire group at Pentecost that David was dead and in the grave where they buried him if he was indeed in heaven with Christ!

Think about it.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Matthew 27:52
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.


How do you know David wasn't among this group? Seems likely to me he was.

How could the theif on the cross be with him in paradise if he was ALL asleep in the ground? We know of course that his body was.

How could Abraham talk to the man across the divide if he was asleep.

You have no proof of soul sleep and in fact it is a heresy condemned by the one true Church. It's a lie.

Blessings

 

Because *if* our spirits go to heaven while our bodies remain in the ground, the resurrection of our bodies would require the spirit to be reunited with the body, or else you have both your living body and your living spirit in different places at the same time.

I'm not sure what happend to Christ during those three days, and I'm not sure what he did with and without his body. I do know that we WON'T do exactly as he did, for Acts 2 tells us his body didn't see corruption, which I understand to mean it didn't start the decomposition process at all.

There is absolutely NO scriptural support for that. There is not one single verse that states that YOU leave your body in the form of a spirit, go to heaven, and then are going to be brought back down in spirit form, reinserted into your body, and then changed.[/quote]

First, to expand my last answer a bit, if we are already in heaven, resurrection of our bodies would still be necessary, because redemption includes everything, not just our spirit. All of creation was affected by the fall of Adam and Eve, and all of creation must be either destroyed or restored.

As to verses, numerous scripture talks about "giving up the ghost" when we die, including Christ. When Stephen was stoned he said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." In Rev, we see souls under the altar in heaven. Rev 19 talks about armies *in heaven* that return with Christ, clothed in "fine linen, white and clean" which just a few verses prior says "the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." Rev 7 has a great multitude of humans in heaven around the throne, before Christ returns, who are definitely conscious. Jude 1:14 says Christ comes "with" saints, not just "for" saints. These are just the ones off the top of my head, there are probably others.

Sometime "you" in scripture means just your body, sometimes it means more. So "sleep" *could* just be referring to the physical body.

While it's true the word translated as spirit can often mean "breath", it also sometimes means much more. Would it make sense for Stephen to say "receive my breath"? In 1 Thess 5:23, Paul talks of preservation of "your whole spirit and soul and body". Yet in your system, preservation of the spirit does not happen. In other places, he says "The Lord Jesus Christ [be] with thy spirit." Is he saying he wants Jesus to simply be with our breath? Rev 4 has John transported to heaven, and he says "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." He was in his breath? Rev 18:2 mentions foul spirits - is this just "bad breath".

Yes, I get what you're saying, I just disagree. I believe at dead I *do* have something that can go to heaven, a spirit. My body, as part of physical creation, is still under the curse of sin and must therefore remain behind until he makes "all things new", and resurrect our bodies incorruptible. Meanwhile though, my spirit, because of redeption through Christ, is able to go to heaven.

Yes, you are changing the meaning of "bring". I see you are from California. Let's say you were going to come up and visit me in Canada, and you were going to "bring" with you some tomato plants. Now, I already have some *dead* tomato plants here. By very definition of "bring", bringing tomato plants with you means you have tomato plants in California that you pack with your luggage, and the accompany you until you get to my house. "Bringing tomato plants with you" does NOT mean you leave home empty-handed and just resurrect the dead ones I already have when you get here.

I believe the passages I mentioned above suffice.

I probably can't find one that explicitly sais that, but numerous passages talk of the "body" being resurrected. None speak of the spirit being resurrected. Can you show me any?

Yes, I believe just his body was "sleeping", and that his spirit was in heaven (or at least in "Abraham's bosom", which is perhaps where the righteous went until Christ's resurrection/ascension.) I doubt the Lazarus that Jesus resurrected was the same Lazarus as in the parable, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if it was.

Because THAT is what a parable is.

No, that is NOT what a parable is, that's what a FABLE is. A fable is a short, false or litrally impossible story that teaches a moral or makes a point. A parable is a short, literally possible story that teaches a moral or makes a point. Are you saying that Jesus, the Son of God, employed falsehoods in his teaching, especially when he didn't have to (ie. could have made his point *without* using falsehoods)???

No, you misunderstand. A parable doesn't require all it's symbols apply to me personally, but it does require that all it's symbols be literally possible. Rocky soil exists. Virgins with oil is physically possible. Fables (like with talking animals) are not physically possible. All people, objects, events in parables must be phyiscally possible - that's what differentiates a parable from a fable.

True, but so does a fable. The difference between a fable and a parable is that a fable uses impossible scenarios to accomplish this, while a parable does not.

By definition, the scenarios used must be literally possible. Jesus taught by parables, not by fables. Was Jesus being stupid or deceitful, in that he used falsehoods in his stories when he could have used true events?

Why did Jesus use this "ridiculous" scenario then, when he could have used a different, true scenario? Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH, and the life. Everything he said must be true. Everything. Regardless how "ridiculous" you or anyone else thinks it is.

Yes, his spirit is, his body is decayed on earth somewhere, sleeping.

Yes, his body is.

Yes, we are not in disagreement about this. We are simply in disagreement about *what* is sleeping.

Why? David's body was dead and buried. That doesn't preclude his spirit being with God in heaven.

Brian

 

Part ONE:

Yes, and *if* the Bible said that, we would all believe it. But, since it DOES NOT SAY THAT, we must look at the whole of scripture on this topic, and not base our doctrine on one parable, and a few obscure comments made by the Apostles.

Ok, so you have completely ignored the question. DID Jesus go to heaven when He died? Jesus died, was buried and then was resurrected, regardless of whether His body saw corruption, it is the BEST example we have of what will happen to us. DID He go to heaven between the time He died and the time He was resurrected?

I'm glad you pointed out your apparent contradiction. If redemption includes your body, what the heck are you doing in heaven? We are going to be redeemed ONCE. Jesus is BRINGING something with Him when He returns, our REWARD. That reward is Eternal Life, Immortality. Something YOU DON'T HAVE YET.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (pneuma 1)a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze)
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

What happened there? Stephen fell asleep. He said 'receive my spirit'. Let the Bible interpret itself.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ruwach 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit)

What spirit would that be?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.(n@shamah 1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing)

Three different words all having the same meaning. All saying the same thing.

1. Spirit=pneuma 1)a current of air, i.e. breath
2. Spirit=ruwach 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
3. Spirit=n@shamah 1) breath, spirit

Ok, you know what a soul is. It is a LIVING person. Dust and breath. Body and Spirit. WHAT would LIVING SOULS be doing in heaven, under an altar, being told to GO BACK TO SLEEP??? Try again. It's figurative.

First of all, Revelation is not in cronological order. Secondly, the people who were HEARD by John were not IN heaven, but the sound he heard came from heaven because that is where the vision was coming from. The end of chapter 19 is the Second Coming of Christ. When the first resurrection will take place, and the Dead in Christ will rise first, and the living in Christ will be caught up together with Him in the air. THEN will we be with the Lord forever. Not until then.

Again, Revelation is not chronological. Chapter 7 is a summary of events that will take place over several days, perhaps even weeks, some estimate years. But we do know that it is not going to take place BEFORE the 7 plagues fall, and those aren't told until chapter 15! It would be impossible for those who die during the tribulation to be in heaven, at the same time that the 144,000 are being sealed. Because, only those who are sealed will be able to resist the mark of the beast. Only those who are sealed by God will die in the tribulation. So, the sealing takes place, then immediately John sees people in heaven? It isn't chronological. Remember that.
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That verse is talking about the Great White Throne judgment, which takes place AFTER the Millenium, which takes place after the Second Coming, so Jude 14 doesn't have anything to do with people who are dying RIGHT NOW.

There aren't.

Where does 'you' just refer to your body? Show me some. Sleep can mean more than one thing, it can mean taking rest in sleep, or it can mean death. In every verse that I have shown where dead is the subject, it is called sleep, and in not ONE of those verses does it say it is only talking about the body.

Absolutely, as shown above through scripture.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And what indication do you have that this passage is speaking of death? Do you think that your body is going to be preserved until the coming of Jesus? It is not a LITERAL preservation Paul is talking about. He is talking about you being preserved BLAMELESS. Paul is praying that THEY, their spirit, their body, their soul, be preseved BLAMELESS until the coming of Christ, so that AT the coming of Christ, THEY get to go to heaven!
Does that mean that each man has a body, with a spirit and a separate soul in it? We went through the composition of man a few times now, and God told us already what we are made up of and what happens at death. Let's stick with that, and quit speculating based on ONE verse that Paul wrote. Remember Peters warning about Pauls writings. We don't want to use Pauls writings as a crutch for an entire doctrine. That is the ONLY verse in the Bible which says anything about a man having a body, a spirit, and a soul. Another point is that in this very chapter, which is actually about the second coming, Paul states that there will be two groups at the second coming 1.the sleeping and 2. the awake. But we know one thing for sure:
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

No. It is not your breath. The Spirit of God which animates all living creatures is not OUR Spirit, or breath, but God's!
Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Look at the spirit that Paul spoke of in
1 Cor 5:4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
When? When will that spirit be saved? When it died? NO. In the DAY of the Lord Jesus. That is the Second Coming. NOT the day they die.

To be continued........

 

Part TWO

He was in the Spirit of God. The Spirit of Prophecy, in vision.

Funny. There is several definitions of spirit. I showed that above. As well as different words. There are spirits, angels and demons, Spirit, of God, and Spirit, of man. The Spirit of God, is what GOES BACK to God, who gave it. Your spirit sleeps, because it isn't really a spirit at all, but rather your mind, which is poetically called 'spirit'. A TRUE spirit can move about unseen. Angels, demons, God. Your person, your psyche, or mind, is a 'spirit' in the Bible. It is not a ghost. This is all pagan theology that you are standing on, and you aren't going to get the Bible to support it. The bible clearly teaches that we sleep awaiting the reserrection. There is not ONE SINGLE verse that states that the Resurrection is of the body only.

That makes no sense. Your spirit is YOU. You are a living soul, with a mind, which is your spirit. Your mind cannot go to heaven, until your body is redeemed from the earth. YOU are under the curse of sin, not just your body. Where are you coming up with this stuff? Your 'spirit' EVEN IF it was a separate entity, COULD NOT go to heaven until Christ comes and chages us. Nothing about a man in immortal. NOTHING. Yet.

Big difference between me flying to Canada and landing. Jesus isn't going to land. He is coming and in mid air will raise the dead, then we who are alive will be CAUGHT UP with Him. Then we will all go back to heaven. The earth will be desolate from all the plagues and hail, and satan will be bound on the earth for 1000 years with no one to tempt. During that time the saints will be in heaven going through the 'books' and judging the dead. The wicked. Anyway, Jesus isn't going to land. Plus, I don't have the power to resurrect dead tomato plants, trust me, I've tried.

Ok, all you had to say was you couldn't find one. Admit it, you can't find one.

What verses talk of a body being resurrected? Can you show me any? All the verses regarding the resurrection say the 'resurrection of the DEAD'. It doesn't say 'body of the dead'. It said 'the dead'. Your spirit will be sleeping, because all your spirit is is your mind. Your mind is what you think, believe, feel. It will sleep awaiting the resurrection, and when Jesus comes, with the voice of Michael, and the Trumpet of God, the dead will have life put back in them, through the same Spirit that animated them before! Then they will be alive again. That Spirit that animated them before, was the Breath of Life FROM GOD.

Well it would suprise me, becuase Lazarus of Bethany wasn't a poor man who was laid at the gates of a rich man's house! And secondly the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus was told before Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead! ALSO, there is no evidence of Lazarus telling anyone ANYTHING about anything he saw while dead. Don't you think that was kind of strange?

Absolutely. He appealed to the intellect of the general populous. The majority of them had no idea what He was talking about. Are you even aware of the fact that the RM&L parable has a meaning? And it isn't that we die and go to Abrahams bosom!

WRONG. Parables are symoblic, whether possible, or impossible, they were all symbolic. WHY do you want to take the Rich man and Lazarus parable literally?

Says who? Where do you come up with this stuff? Parables were the way that Jesus taught the people, in object lessons, that taught them things, but they had to have 'an ear' to hear. Fables are cunningly devised FALSE doctrines that the Pharisees, and NOW the Pharisees of today, the Apostate Churches teach! FABLES. Jesus taught using a NEVER BEFORE HEARD OF senario that DOES NOT EXIST to explain a moral that YOU most likely don't even get. Because you are so blinded by your LITERAL interpretation of it, you haven't stopped to think about what it means! Back up, take off your tradition goggles and think about what it might MEAN. The meaning is RIGHT THERE IN THE PARABLE! Just like all the other parables! That are IMPOSSIBLE.

Wrong. Who defines this for you? It is not literally possible for all MEN and WOMEN to be virgins waiting for the second coming! So, is that not a parable? It is impossible for me to be a place of stony ground, and seeds to fall on me and try to grow, so is that not a parable too? You aren't making sense here. Parables don't have to be possible, they are meant to convey a message that is NOT in the actual words of the parable. You must replace the words in the parable with the meaning. THEN they are possible.

That's rediculous. Stupid or deceitful? He used impossible senarios to make the people have to think. His Apostles asked Him why He did that! He told them He was doing it on purpose because they were too hard headed to get it in the first place!

Everything He said must be true? So then I must have a mustard seed in me, so I can walk up to mountains and move them? HELLO???? Do you know what figurative means? Jesus described something to the people, that IS NOT REAL, so that they would have to think about what He meant. You know there were people there who got His meanings? They perceived that Jesus was speaking AGAINST them. The Jews. The RML parable has a meaning.

SO I guess Peter is a liar. He was only lying when he said that David has not gone to heaven. RIGHT? You know he said that right?

David, and his son Solomon and his son Jeraboam are all sleeping in the ground. They are together in the ground. Sleeping. THEY ARE. Not their bodies, but the actual person. Even THEY KNEW THAT!!

Do you have any idea what Peter was talking about when he said this? He was talking about the resurrection of the dead, Jesus to be exact. Jesus was resurrected from the dead, after NOT GOING TO HEAVEN when He died, but sleeping in the grave. He didn't go anywhere while He was dead. He ALSO said, 'into your hands I commit my spirit' before He died, but yet DID NOT GO TO HEAVEN the day He died.

Peter made it clear. You want to deny it, that's your right.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

3AngelsMom,

I'm not interested in getting this involved in this debate. It's getting too lengthy, and to circular. I've made it clear that I believe that "sleep" refers to the body only, yet many of your responses try to make me look self-contradictory because *you* apply "sleep" to more than the body. I am not contradicting myself, because I am not using your definition in the first place. It appears we interpret scriptures quite differently, and I'll leave it at that.

One point I do want to clairfy, not so much to continue the debate but to simply clear up a misunderstanding:

Again, you misunderstand what I'm saying. I said "A parable doesn't require all it's symbols apply to me personally, but it does require that all it's symbols be literally possible. Rocky soil exists." When I'm talking about the literally possible aspects of parables, I'm NOT talking about the symbolism and scenarios being literally applied (ie. I become a virgin woman, you have a mustard seed in you), but about the symbolism and scenarios being literally possible before the point of the parable is applied. I'm saying a fable uses allegory where the *scenario* is false or physically impossible, while a parable uses allegory where the *scenario* is NOT false or physically impossible.

For example: Christ's parable about the 10 virgins with lamps of oil - it is literally possible for 10 virgins to have lamps of oil. Period. This scenario is not impossible, like it would be if there were talking foxes with lamps of oil instead. In Christ's parable about the woman looking for the coin - it is literally possible for a woman to loose a coin and sweep her house looking for it. Period. In the parable of the sower - it is physically possible for someone to spread seed on different types of ground, and for birds and weeds to affect the planting. Period. In the parable of the nobleman leaving to receive a kingdom and leaving his servants behind, it is literally possible for this to happen. Period.

All the parables are like this: the events of the parable, before you even deal with the interpretation of the parable, are literally possible scenarios. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the scenario has to be literally possible as well, or it is not a parable, but a fable (and would also be completely unique in that it was NOT literally possible when all other parables are, and would also be completely unique in that Christ is using a *false, impossible* scenario when Christ could have told a different parable instead that used a literally possible scenario.) Regardless of what the "point" or interpretation of a parable is, what makes it a parable in the first place is that the scenario in the story is physically possible - and this must include the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where people's spirits were conscious, and sent to appropriate places, after death.

Christ told parables, not fables.

Brian

 

Phil 1:21-23 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. [22] But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. [23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:" (Why would Paul prefer death? Because it means to depart and to be with Christ!)

2 Cor 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle [our physical body] were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:"

2 Cor 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Matt 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (how can men kill the body but not kill the soul, if the soul doesn't live on?)

 

BrianT,

You didn't want to answer my question, so I will answer it for you.

You don't have anything that is immortal right now, and the Word of God will prove it.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

'breath of life'-
05397 n@shamah {nesh-aw-maw'}
AV - breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24
1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing 1d) spirit (of man)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

'spirit'- (ruwach), breath, wind, blast.

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

'breath'- (nashama)-breath
'spirit'-(ruwach)- breath, wind, blast.

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

'breath'- (ruwach) breath, wind, blast (note same as spirit in last verse)
Note: In the day he dies HIS THOUGHTS perish
Perish- 06 'abad {aw-bad'}
AV - perish 98, destroy 62, lose 10, fail 2, surely 2, utterly 2, broken 1, destruction 1, escape 1, flee 1, spendeth 1, take 1, undone 1, void 1; 184

1 Timothy 6:15 (KJV)
15Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Note: the PRESENT TENSE of the verb HATH. That means JUST HIM, HATH IMMORTALITY. That means RIGHT NOW He is the ONLY one who is immortal. HATH. RIGHT NOW.

Romans 2:7 (KJV)
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Let's see, this was a LONG time ago, and they were SEEKING immortality. Who was? Those who were ALREADY serving God. THE SAVED. So if they were ALREADY saved, why were they seeking immortality and eternal life? If they already have it why seek it? HMMMM

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Lets see, at the last trump, THEN we will put on immortality, THEN we will be changed. ALL will be changed. None of us are already immortal, otherwise why would we need to change?
Note: the 8 instances of the word 'shall' those are all FUTURE tense.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV)
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Those who are 'dead', or not alive in their bodies anymore, DO NOT praise the Lord. Now, if you die, and you go straight to Heaven, don't you think you will be praising Him? This verse likens the dead people to those who are mute. The mute do not speak just as the dead do not speak.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV)
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Those dead do not remember anything, nor give thanks. If they were in heaven, don't you think they would remember and give thanks?

Job 19:25 (KJV)
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

HMMM, sounds like this person, Job, knows that worms will eat his body, and that in the last day he will be resurrected with a new body to see God. Doesn't sound like he believed in dualism.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

'soul' 05315 nephesh {neh'-fesh}
AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8....

This is the same 'soul' used in Genesis 2:7 when God made Adam a 'living soul' out of dirt and 'spirit' or breath as it is called there.

The SOUL shall die. DIE. Why is that a confusing term for some. If a bug dies what is it? DIRT. The same

 

Continued........

The same breath that makes you alive makes that bug alive, and when you die, you too return to DIRT.

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wage (payment) is death. YOU are saved, and again, you have NOT spent that 'redemption' yet.

2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV)
7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

It is laid up, or put away, 'saved', and the Lord 'shall' (there's that future tense again) give it to us at THAT day. Which day? The day He appears.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

IF Jesus has the reward with Him, how could you already have it? (uh oh, there's that shall again)

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

They KNOW nothing, and have no memory. They DO NOT HAVE their reward.

'For the living know that they shall die.'

Perhaps, that is YOUR problem, you don't think you will die.

You have been duped by the first lie ever told to mankind.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

But what did God tell them?

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now let's compare those:

Ye shall not surely die -SATAN
thou shalt surely die. -GOD

Notice that Satan added just ONE word to God's and started every bit of this doctrine that you hold so tightly to.

That's all it takes. Just a little false to make the WHOLE thing a lie.

God ALONE HAS immortality.

If you cannot dismiss this, THIS DOCTRINE IS FALSE.

By merit of His Glorification by God, Jesus now is immortal.

We are not granted immortality until Christ returns.

Therefore, you don't have anything that could even GO to heaven right now.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Kelly, you didn't address the following verse, which Brian presented:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor 5:8).

Also, Paul says the following, which is substantially problematic for your soul annihilation theory:

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account." (Phil 121-24).

Paul has departed, and Paul is with Christ as we speak. You can even ask him to pray for you in heaven if you wish, for we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1).