Originally posted by AngelforChrist:
Wputman , one moment you claim its the actual sacrifice of Christ which happened through crucifixtion and the page says they "slay the sacrificial victim " anew , there is no way you can get around it , your argument is as useless as saying because the word bible isnt in the bible there is so such thing , or the word trinity . Slaying Christ again , offering Him to God again as a sacrifice for sin , IS recrucifying Christ , any way you spin with word games period . Now , I am STILL waiting for someone to adress these issues that i asked before and keep being ignored about transubstatition:
Angel, we are rapidly getting nowhere.
Did you really read my reply? Why do I get the feeling that you comprehended none of it? So, go back, read it again and reply, qoting me line for line and refute what I said line by line and let's see where it goes...
Oh and a couple more questions , if the wine is literal blood , why did Christ say he wouldnt partake again of THIS fruit of the VINE untill he partook in heaven with the disciples? Jesus, after saying "this is my blood" in Matthew 26:28 also said "I will not drink henceforth of this FRUIT OF THIS VINE" in Matthew 26:29, showing that the grapejuice was STILL WINE and had not been changed to blood.
He is simply telling his apostles that there will come a time when he is with them at a "new table" in heaven, as they are now, obviously in a far more glorious setting.
In any case, it has nothing at all to do to what the wine becomes after consecration.
Tell me also if He intends to drink BLOOD in heaven with them? Why would he drink his own blood? We also have this to contend with as well:
How will that "new table" look like in the spiritual realm, where there is nothing physical in that new world but all spirit? Soo Christ uses eartly terms to describe how it is when they are altogether once again, in triumph, in heaven!
Luke 22:19 states clearly that the Lord's supper is for remembrance purposes: "This do in remembrance of me." This is a metaphor, where one thing is said to be another thing because of it's similarity. A metaphor is a figurative use of terms without indicating their figurative nature, for example, he shall eat his words.
Of course it is in "rememberance" of Him! And in that rememberance, there is nothing more personal then for Him to be with them personally, but in the form of the Eucharist!
Why do you make less, what is an obviously great thing, Christ is doing here?
We also have the meaning in greek which doesnt agree with you :
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The tense of the Greek verbs "EAT" in John 6:50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 56, 57, 58 is in the AORIST tense showing a ONCE-FOR-ALL, point action, that is NOT CONTINUAL. The Biblical Lord's supper is to be a repeated event, and therefore has no saving merit.
Since this is clear by greek tense , how can you conceive its a literal since the word meaning is a one time event?</font>[/QUOTE]I don't care what language you use, when what occurs here on earth, in the time flow of creation, that ONE TIME event, that English can say just aa well as the Greek, an event that was so powerful, it was applicable to those who were righteous before the Lord but could not open heven's gates until that ONE TIME event?
I will say it one more time: The ONE TIME event harks back to the past, where souls are sequestered, that they can now be set free and enter heaven! And not only that, it reaches also in the future for those who whould come to Him in salvation, that the blood He shed 2,000 years ago is still applicable!
I have said this before, so perhaps repeating it will have you finally understand what it is I am trying to tell you.
There was a day, a singular day of awesome events, where Christ died ONCE AND FOR ALL of the cross that ONCE AND FOR ALL brought salvation to the world, both for souls in the past (in the "Bosom of Abraham" if you recall) that is applicable, is the best way we can describe it in human terms, a salvific power that applies to all future humans until the end of time, if they come to Him, accept Him and his gospel message!
What is the old song,
The Power in the Blood as I recall, from my Fundamentalists days and in my youth, that is applicable across all timelines.
But let me revert back to holy Communion...
Do you practice that in your church, AngelForChrist? How often do you do this? If you do it more then once, then are you not violating your own proposition? I know you see this only symbotically, but why repeat it a month from now (or do you wait a year) that would seemingly "recrucify" Christ all over again?
Explain to my how the Catholic belief that the bread and wine of the Mass becomes the actual body and blood of Christ (not
natural flesh and human blood, but under the "accidents" of what used to be bread and wine)?
We cannot, in the time-flow of creation, have a one time event in holy Communion, as then that denies us the continual flow of graces, this sacrament brings. Do you pray one time in your life and consider that sufficient for the rest of your days? Of course not?
Oh, I before I forget, my wife and I go
daily to receive HIM in the Eucharist! And we do not "recrucify" Him when we do!
Before you go on about the pharisees being unable to accept it and some leaving Christ , it was BECAUSE they veiwed it as literal and missed that it was SPIRITUAL .
Really? Then why did not Christ correct their misconception of His words? This is obvious when they murmered against Him with "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" (John 6:52)
They took Him literally, didn't they?
What a wonderful opportunity for Christ to say, "No, no, you took me wrong! I meant my flesh in figurative terms, not actually!"
No, Christ did not say that, did he? And what did he say?
Read very, very slowly, the text of verses 53 through 58, where He hammers-in the words that can be taken in no other way but literally.
Note also the complete abandonment of the Jews at this time, taking with them, some of His own disciples.
Christ who walked according to ALL righteousness would not ask someone to sin by drinking blood and eating flesh which was against mosaic law .
Which is why this is the grand test, Christ imposes on them as a test of faith. They took Him literally, not yet realizing that the real flesh and blood would not be in the
natual for of real flesh and blood, but in the form of bread and wine.
After consecration, it is no longer bread and wine but his flesh and blood. The "accidents" of bread and wine remain, in that it still looks, feels, tastes and digests like bread and wine but it is no longer bread and wine.
How do I explain that? I can't! It is a profundity that is beyond me, and I must believe it out of pure faith. I must abandon my senses and what they tell me to believe that what remains on the altar after consecration is a species of Christ that was once a species of bread and wine.
Human eyes and the other senses canot discern the difference and neither can science. It is pure faith that Christ demands that we are to believe it.
Since Christ had not yet died on the cross , doing this would have been a sin as well , because they didnt realize He was speaking SPIRITUALLY , they rejected Him as messiah because of their own carnal veiw of things physical and not being able to discern the things of the Spirit .
Do you recall the difference I made with opposoing statements?
Christ said, "This is my body," He did not say, "I am the bread"!
Perhaps I am being too eager for you to accept what I told you in my last message. So, sit back, consider what you said, and perhaps in time, it will hit you! It is not an easy thing to believe in the Catholic beliefs concerning the Eucharist - it will not occur overnight!
But perhaps, just perhaps, in time, with the help of the holy Spirit, you may come to realize what is the most beautiful of all the Seven Sacraments in the Church.
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.
