Stinger, your replies took me back a bit, so let's see how this goes….
On Edit: Color rendering does not seem to work. I had intended to have your replies in the color red to make it easier to read.....Oh well......
I said: (given in bold from here on out)
How do you know Jesus was the savior? (I'm acting as a "devil's advocate" here....)
[font color=red]Oh, I'm sorry...I was referring to the same Jesus you mentioned as the one who might be a cult.
In that sense, you may be serving a wrong Jesus.....right ?[/font]
I'm sorry, Singer, but you seem to go completely into a defensive, almost hostile mode that disappoints me. And I think you know full well which "Jesus" I am serving…..
And in the broader sense, what makes Christianity stand out
as the correct one from that of Judiasm, Islam and the many
other non-Christian main line religions?
[font color=red]Quite simple...one has a risen savior and the rest don't.[/font]
Well, that is certainly correct, but I was hoping to get a more definitive answer.
Finally, what "church" was Christ refering to in Matthew 16:18-19?
Jesus says some rather interesting things here, don't you think?
[font color=red]The same ''church'' he will come to redeem someday. Agree ? Now
you tell ME who will be redeemed.[/font]
You almost completely deflected my question with an inadequate answer.
Certainly, Christ will come for His Church when He returns. Now, all you need to do is tell me which church. As a hint, refer back to the "church" He created back in Matthew 16:18-19 and then look forward to see which one fits that description from history. Find the one church that can trace her origins back to those times of Christ and you will have it!
Now, don't come to the immediate conclusion that I am referring to Catholics only here, who are faithful to Christ in the Catholic Church. The breadth of His Church includes those who are in good faith, even while they may only be members of that church I allude to in an incomplete way. It is quite possible that
you are included in that number, Singer…
Jesus certainly loves all of us, even while some of you are not,
strictly speaking, members of the very church He founded.
[font color=red]Would this be the church that he will reedeem?[/font]
My answer above should answer your question.
On the other hand, the good Methodist, Baptist, you name it denominational person, having a good heart, will go to heaven.
[font color=red]That's right....so what's the big Push about the Catholic Church.?
Heaven is heaven.[/font]
Simply put, the sacramental advantages of what the Catholic Church offers. Why not come completely into the very church Christ founded? Does the Methodist or the Baptist churches and others trace their origins back to the church of Matthew 16:18-19? Only through the Catholic Church can they do that. No other church can trace her history back to the original Christ founded church like the Catholic Church.
Therefore, why avoid her when she is the original church founded by Christ?
Note, however, that they all go to the same Mass!
[font color=red]And they all go to the same heaven as Methodists too....(you said).
Some just don't have to suffer Mass first.[/font]
Just for the fun of it, I am going to paste-in, my complete statement here:
Now, I think you attempt to skate the issue when I speak of "confusion." Certainly, there are Catholics that may be a bit confused in the teachings of the Church. I, myself, may be in error on some issues. I am not perfect is this, as most Catholics are not. Note, however, that they all go to the same Mass!
To compare the "confusion" among Catholics is like comparing the ant hill with Mt. Everest. Catholicism is not split into competing denominations as is Protestantism. and by my saying that, do not confuse this with the various "Rites" of Catholicism. These Rites, "in union with Rome," believe in exactly the same doctrines, even while they may have different traditions. We have about 10 Catholic churches here in Pensacola, FL. They are unified under the same bishop who has sovereign authority over these churches. And if there is any "confusion" on the part of any Catholic, there is a place where it can be addressed - The chancery office of the bishop.
Now, will you insist that your reply above adequately answers my statement here?
At least they will all agree that "Jesus is Lord" but it is
obvious to all who observe them that there is great doctrinal
disunity and confusion.
[font color=red]That's why I don't have a church, Bill.[/font]
Again, I paste-in my complete statement here:
So, when I speak of "confusion," I speak of the great scandal of Christianity - Church against church, denomination against denomination. And yes, I will acknowledge that there is much unity among them. At least they will all agree that "Jesus is Lord" but it is obvious to all who observe them that there is great doctrinal disunity and confusion.
Christ established one Church, not a multitude of them. He supposed that they would be in "One flock, ruled by one shepherd" here on earth.
There is only one Church that has such unity. The ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH which has within her collective self, Rites of the East and of which the "Roman Catholic Church" is but a sub-set.
And the answer you give is the only one you can generate?
Why do you avoid a "community of believers" (which is church, by the way) when it is obvious that Christ established one, one with great authority and mission? Are you that "lonely one" that goes off, bible in hand, and become your own "church" with a membership of one? Are you going to tell me that you follow Jesus in obedience when you avoid His church?
Christ established one Church, not a multitude of them. He supposed
that they would be in "One flock, ruled by one shepherd" here on earth.
[font color=red]The church that will be redeemed from the earth...right?... The one with the Methodists who will be in heaven with the Catholics ??[/b]
In all Christian charity, I certainly hope I will see my Methodist brethren in heaven, as also you and the many other friends I have in this forum.
But the diasporia of Christianity into a multitude of sects and denominations does not seem to bother you, Singer, and I wonder why. One insists that a person must be totally immersed to be baptized and at the same time, insists that the ceremony in and of itself does not save, whereas the Catholics and some others insist that the water may be poured over the individual in the ceremony and that it does indeed, save. The bread and wine of communion is only symbolic in most Christian communities, whereas in at least three communities I know of, it is truly the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ - no longer bread and wine but only the "accidents" of bread and wine.
So in those two examples, which is it, Singer? Not all of them can be true and thus there is error in the teachings of one opposing community. Do you subscribe and accept error as a part of Christian life and doctrine, Singer?
Error, in fact, opposes truth, and God and His Divine Son Jesus is
ALL truth, and therefore, error stands in opposition to God and all truth. Nevertheless, those who are sublimely ignorant of the truth may be saved.
But that being so does not give a blanket approval to all sects and denominations of Christianity! God in His infinite mercy and justice saves as he sees fit from what He sees in the heart, not what church he/she belongs to. On the other hand, being in the "right church" just might have an advantage that one is fully aware of salvation and the "tools" that will bring it - The Sacraments - that are denied to others in other denominations.
Coming into Christ's Church must have an advantage over being a member of a church that is dissident/outside of very fold Christ intended. I would hope that you could eventually see those advantages and come into her!
And again, I could not agree more! Christ's arms open wide to those
who come to him and accept him, be they Baptist, Presbyterian or whatever!
[font color=red]A good Catholics doesn't give any credit to "accepting Jesus".......
And they're all going to heaven. End of Story.[/font]
Name the Catholic in this forum who has made such an assertion, Singer. Name just one!
Now, much of the discussion may speak upon what it takes to "accept Jesus" that one is truly saved. Please don't jump to any conclusions when I ask: Does not "accepting Jesus" include the intent and the promise to follow Him, and to obey all that He commands you? I don't mean
part of what He commands you to do, but
ALL of what He commands you.
I will add nothing more here, letting you ponder what it is to completely do what all Christ commands you to do…………………..
That does not mean that He would not want them to be under
the very church He Himself established!
[font color=red]How could He have established a yet unredeemed church?[/font]
Are you claiming that the Catholic Church is "unredeemed"? Ponder her history and note the continuity of her history back to the very early times of the primitive church. Note, for example, the frescoes on the walls of the ancient Christian catacombs, a testimony of a devotion to the Mother of God and the prayers on tombs that ask for an immediate entry into heaven of the individual - that the individual will not languish too long in the purgative state - that they may be made white as snow and enter heaven. Note further their belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, even in the ruins of ancient Egyptian temples, evidence of Egyptian Christians who believed in the Eucharist as Christ told then in the "Bread of Life" discourse of John, Chapter 6.
That Church was promised redemption, Singer…
loves you guys just as much as He loves all of us! We would,
of course, desire that you all would "complete the journey" and come
back to Holy Mother church!
[font color=red]No thanks, I'll just go to heaven as a Protestant sympathizer; then I don't have to clean your church or sit through all those boring Masses......or contend with the pride of thinking I'm in some special organization.[/font]
I can sit bored to tears at a rap concert!
It is what I put into the Mass that makes the difference. My pastor does not have to have the "golden throat of Bishop Sheen" for me to derive what is important at Mass! And if I take the similar pride as seen in the Pharisees, then I am in deep trouble! But I enter church in humility, knowing how far I fail in approaching even the tiniest bit of the glory of God. If I take pride at all, it is in Christ my Savior!
Does not Christ want you to be a complete and practicing member of that
church?
[font color=red]Not a chance.[/font]
By your answer, are you agreeing that the Catholic Church is indeed, the Church that Christ founded? She is the only church that can make that assertion, all others being "John come latelies" that have sprung out of her in error.
Oops, sorry, I jump to the conclusion that churches with diverse and opposing doctrines display the existence of error!
Merely "joining the Catholic Church" is not going to get it, Singer, not one whit! But joining her in the last act in fulfillment of "believing in Jesus Christ
[font color=red]Good, I'll stay on the outside. The thief on the cross "believed" too...that's my kind of believing. The woman at the well believed. The woman who touched his garment believed and she received His power. There's nothing to join.[/font]
Had the thief lived beyond the cross, continuing in his belief in Christ, would he not also seek out the very "community" Christ established? And likewise for the woman who "received his power" from an artifact not do likewise? Also, do you see any reason that the cloak of Christ would have any power at all? I kiss the corpus of the crucifix on the wall in my house. Could that possibly have any effect on me for doing that? (Just curious, it being a side-question.)
I think I give away my age there, but I was born in
1929! As of the 18th of this month, I turned 74 years young!
[font color=red]Whoops...you're old enough to be my dad and I'm a grandpa myself.[/font]
Young whipper-snapper! Just as I thought!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.
- St. Therese of Avila -