What do you want from your church?

Woooohoooo Brother Ed !!

That last post of yours would hinge on qualifying within the
classifications of Brother Bill's " defensive/hostile".

Stinger is capable of dat kinna talk too, Bro.

Actually, I've cleaned up my act since a recent fling with the
Katliks on another forum. (But then I've backed off in the name
of Love for the deceived masses) .

Now don't that jis crank ya ?

Cya

 

29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. - Matthew 22:29 NASB

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 NASB

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, - John 1:12 NASB

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. - Romans 10:8-10 NASB

4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, - Romans 4:4-5 NASB

 

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." (Romans 6)

"You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6)

"He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3)

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2)

"While Apol'los was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." (Acts 19)

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3)

 

Your verses would have some relevance Carson had somebody said that a Christian should not be baptized.

I especially like this verse:

"He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3)

as it points out that God alone is savior.

You've ignored the Gospel though.

 

I can not comment on the message of the radio personel, but I can comment on your assumption that Luther read 1Co 11:24 as "represents". Luther understood "is my body" as "IS my body". He also knew that Christ was fully God and fully man and not made of bread and wine. Lutheran Real Presence is not as you understand. Paul writes concerning the Lord's Supper, "Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 10:16) Later in this same epistle the apostle warns, "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself" (1 Corinthians 11:27-29). These passages indicate that in the sacrament we receive both bread and wine, body and blood. "Real Presence" in Lutheran theology means that together with the bread and the wine the true body and blood of our Savior are distributed and received in the Lord's Supper by virtue of the sacramental union.

Paul writes, "Is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?" not "Is not the JESUS that we break a participation in the body of Christ?".

Just wanted to clarify.

God Bless!

 

Bill,

While Dual and Carson flex their muscles a bit, I'll comment on some more
of your long posts.

Christ established one Church, not a multitude of them. He supposed that
they would be in "One flock, ruled by one shepherd" here on earth.
There is only one Church that has such unity. The ONE HOLY CATHOLIC
AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH which has within her collective self, Rites of the
East and of which the "Roman Catholic Church" is but a sub-set.

Somebody has sold you a bill of goods, Bill. You're old enough to remember
the phrase "Hook, line and sinker". There are lots of claims made in the name
of religion and there are alot of takers. Yours truly was raised in a sect that
made the exact claim that you posted above....only with a different name.
They are still active today and their hardliners are incessantly trying to spread
the "Gospel". They claim that no soul is saved short of professing to woship and
think like their leaders.

History or not...........God was handing out salvation long before anything
that resembles the Catholic Church ever arose on the scene. What's the
big race to be FIRST. You know what happens to those who want to be
first in the kingdom...

Claims that Peter was the first pope is about as assumptive as Jos. Smith
being a prophet of God. If you'll look at Matt 16:15, Jesus was asking who
the people were saying that He was. When Peter answered and said "The
Christ", Jesus acknowledged that. In l7 Jesus told Peter that he was revealed
that by the Father. In the very next verse Jesus then acknowledged that
Peter was infact Peter and followed by saying that he would build His church
on the same awarness of who He (Jesus) is. It is that way
yet today.....we have to come to grips of just who He is.

There is no danger in understanding those verses to mean that Jesus built
his church upon faith in who the Son is and what He represents.

There IS danger in understanding those verses to point to a corruptible,
visible church made with hands.

Acts 7:48
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
as saith the prophet.

Does He not dwell in the heart of man?
Why do you look for Him only in a tabernacle (organization) made with hands...?

Singer

 

I especially like this verse [Titus 3] ... as it points out that God alone is savior."

Amen brother.

 

Oh, I like what they are discussing!

Is it enough to simply "accept Jesus as your Lord and savior" when it must also include doing everything that He commands? The issue of baptism is also introduced, and well it should, as it is central to Catholic teaching, it being the very first sacrament for all Catholics. See my "tagline" below my signature as to why...

Anyway, you wanted to comment on my last statement:

Christ established one Church, not a multitude of them. He supposed that
they would be in "One flock, ruled by one shepherd" here on earth.
There is only one Church that has such unity. The ONE HOLY CATHOLIC
AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH which has within her collective self, Rites of the
East and of which the "Roman Catholic Church" is but a sub-set.

And you replied:

Your problem is, Singer, you didn't follow a sect that had the truth!

Now, I have the Catechism of the Catholic Church at hand to show what she teaches about those who are outside of her fold, yet are still Christians, thus are members in a incomplete way. Let me know when to quote from it, plus other references if you are willing to read them.

You are preaching to the choir, Singer! I know full well of the old covenant Lord made with Abraham and the prophets. I also know that in the new covenant of the Lord, His own Divine Son, Jesus, established a church created to facilitate the salvation of men here on this earth. And yes, the blood of the cross is what saves, but His church facilitates the graces that flow from that and the other sacraments given to her in the fulfillment of that divine mission.

Singer, do you want me to broach the issue of exactly how it is that Jesus founded His church upon Peter?

To start it off, get the book,

JESUS, PETER & THE KEYS
by Scott Butler, Norman Dahlgren and
David Hess, ISBN: 1-882972-54-6

This book destroys once and for all, all Protestant objections to the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 that Jesus did indeed, build His church upon Peter. Every issue is covered, the "Petros-petra" Greek pair, and what Jesus had to say in His native Aramaic - "You are Kepha (Aramaic for ROCK) and upon this kepha I will build my church."

The argument that it is Peter's confession is destroyed simply because it is totally and completely outside of the declarative statement upon what Jesus builds His church. The book explains it throughly.

Take any good English translation to a good English teacher and have them parce Matthew 16:18c for you. Gramatically, there is no escaping the conclusion that Jesus builds His church upon PETER (PETROS, KEPHA, ROCK)

I have news for you, Singer.........

I look for God in the hearts of all men who would come to him in belief and obedience. I also find him in the tabernacle of every Catholic Church that would hold My Lord and Savior in the Holy Eucharist! (Go to my web site and read my take on John 6.)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

"…Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now…"

1 Peter 3:20-21

 

Carson,

What's with the bandana ?

 

Bill,

I looked at your website and the comments on John 6 are atypical and
reflect the unity within the RCC. I might add ..."which is also not in
agreement with non-Catholic data".

It always comes down to being a matter of what a person wants to believe.
I've read alot of E.White's SDA book at the request of my SDA relatives. I've
heard some of the Mormon approach from hardline gung-ho followers. My
sister and niece are members and my son in law was raised Mormon. My JW
cousins sent their missionaries to my doorstep. I have a Catholic nephew due
to marriage. That's an irritating matter to say the least. I broke up with a very
beautiful girl at age l8 due to her RCC involvement.

Told my kids if they married Catholics that they wouldn't receive any of my
inheritance. Must have made an impact...we're 3 for 3 so far. No RCs. Now
I have to talk to my grandkids. The Catholics in this town own the bars and
keep them busy. They give me the impression that being in the Catholic
Church..... they have freedom to use God's name in vain. Their smugness
over church matters is irritating. It's like chatting with a wall.....they think
that they have all the answers and their attitude shows it.

Now you can tell me that there are always a few sour apples in every crate.

And now for the good side.

We're doing a mutual musical Gospel Jam this Sunday in another state that
started their function as a copy from ours. I've been in charge of organizing
performers for the past two years and we've made many musician friends.
There were 7 denominations present at our last one and I asked a lay person
with the local Catholic Church to lead us in prayer. She was wonderful and
she ended up singing with my wife with our instrumental backup during the show.
What a gorgeous person.

Another gal who is Catholic, and an ex member of our danceband is such
a spirit filled person and a beautiful singer. She performed also. The organizers
of this Sunday's event are from the Catholic Church in a small town in South
Dakota. One of them has come to our events and played guitar and sang.

There is unity in Christ, Bill, but there is not unity when particular issues arise.
If you actually believe like you say.....that we are all bound for heaven as
possesors of the "Son" and that God is just and wants none to perish and
that those who are unknowingly disobedient will not be held accountable, then
let it rest. You have no more to say.

Breath spent on spreading the Gospel is well spent. It does not include
denominational matters. "Whosoever believes in me " is just that and no
more. An SDAer on here tried to say that it included obedience of ALL of the
commandments. You have stated that yourself, but do you worship and rest
on the Sabbath? No.

You may have never belonged to another faith to get a taste of exclusivity
teaching. They all have it to some degree. That part I detest. That's why
I'll stay on the outside and do what I can to unite through music and bar
witnessing and I'll never mention ''denomination'' in my invitation to
"believe in Him".

Confess with thy mouth and believe in thy heart is good enough for me.

Confess what ?
That Jesus is risen from the dead..........it's that simple.

Singer

 

Matthew 18:3
"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter
into the kingdom of heaven.


Look how this verse disputes the Catholic approach of conversion and
kingdom of heaven .

Conversion:

It could hardly mean conversion to Catholicism as the church did not
even exist when Jesus spoke those words. It was a later addition as
a tabernacle built with hands which God warns about.

Kingdom of God:

It could hardly be referring to the Catholic Church as the "Kingdom of God'
or else it's saying "Except ye be converted to Catholicism; ye shall not enter
into Catholicism.

But then I suppose the Vatican has an answer explaining how the RCC
might have existed in the hearts of man even before New Testament times.

 

1 Cor 10: 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank
of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Why do Catholics say Peter is the Rock? Wasn't Jesus referring to himself
when he gave the basis for what the church would be built upon?
Why does Catholicism remove Jesus from the position of the Rock and
insert Peter? Why do we need them both? Non Catholics have Jesus
as the Rock and don't need Peter. On the other hand, without Peter
being the Rock, Catholicism has no claim to power and authority.

Remove Peter as the Rock and the Catholic Church falls...!!

Who does the Old Testament say is the Rock ? God or Peter ?

Deuteronomy 32:4
[He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment:
a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

 

What's with the bandana ?

I got it with 30 kool aid points.

 

I got it with 30 kool aid points.

For 2 1/2 books of Green Stamps you can get a
full fledged Towel.

 

Your problem is, Singer, you didn't follow a sect that had the truth!

But they said they did !!!!

Mormons say they do.
Mennonites say they do.
JWs say they do.
2x2s say they do.
Muslims say they do.
Adventists say they do.
Catholics .................

 

Catholics ................. have a Church that is Apostolic unlike every one of the religions or sects mentioned in your post above.

Let's review some secular sources:

"Roman Catholicism Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD." (Encyclopedia Britannica ©1999)

"If you are a Roman Catholic, Jesus Christ began your religion in the year 33. "(Ann Landers [Jewish], syndicated columnist in the Daily Record of Morris County, N.J. for Monday, November 11,1996)

"The Roman Catholic church ... the only legitimate inheritor, by an unbroken episcopal succession descending from Saint Peter to the present time, of the commission and powers conferred by Jesus Christ...Until the break with the Eastern church in 1054 and the break with the Protestant churches in the 1500s, it is impossible to separate the history of the Roman Catholic church from the history of Christianity" (The Encarta Encyclopedia © 1997)

"33-40 A.D.The Roman Catholic Church is founded by Jesus Christ"(The Timetables of History © 1975)

"St. Peter, of Bethsaida in Galilee, From Christ he received the name of Cepha, an Aramaic name which means rock .Prince of the Apostles, was the first pope of the Roman Catholic Church. He lived first in Antioch and then in Rome for 25 years. In C.E. 64 or 67, he was martyred. St. Linus became the second pope." (National Almanac © 1996)

 

You are preaching to the choir, Singer! I know full well of the old
covenant Lord made with Abraham and the prophets. I also know
that in the new covenant of the Lord, His own Divine Son, Jesus
established a church created to facilitate the salvation of men here on
this earth. And yes, the blood of the cross is what saves, but His
church facilitates the graces that flow from that and the other sacraments
given to her in the fulfillment of that divine mission.

Then the choir isn't listening.

Typical Catholic approach.....
Jesus alone cannot save and the Bible alone cannot be trusted.
Grace through Faith is not Sufficient.
There is no assurance of salvation until after Purgatory and Judgement.
Prayers for the dead are more likely to get results than the living....praying !!

(Donations and prayers could even get Hitler to heaven... evidently !!)

 

Catholics ................. have a Church that is Apostolic unlike every one of the religions or
sects mentioned in your post above.


It really doesn't matter as Bill said I'm a Catholic anyhow.

I'm in like Flint, now if I could just find a sweatband I'd even look like one.

 

Singer replied, where I last said:

Your problem is, Singer, you didn't follow a sect that had the truth!

The problem is, the Catholics were FIRST!

That is, from all of history, the Catholic Church is the only one that can trace her origins back to Christ Himself.

Therefore, if they say "they do," but they really don't, (have the truth) what does that say about the truth of Christianity? If that were so, Christ would be a fraud...

Christ promised that "...the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (church)." (Matt. 16:18) therefore, if she, Holy Mother Church, the one Christ founded, fell into error, then what say you about the Christian faith you believe in?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

Singer replied, where I last said:

You are preaching to the choir, Singer! I know full well of the old
covenant Lord made with Abraham and the prophets. I also know
that in the new covenant of the Lord, His own Divine Son, Jesus
established a church created to facilitate the salvation of men here on
this earth. And yes, the blood of the cross is what saves, but His
church facilitates the graces that flow from that and the other sacraments
given to her in the fulfillment of that divine mission.

And he replied:

Typical faint reply that refutes nothing that I have said!

Only through Jesus can all of humanity be saved, even those who may never have heard the gospel message!

Yet you seem to insist that all we need to do is "believe in Jesus" and that is all there is to it! What about obeying all that He commands of you?

Take a good look at Matthew 18:15 through 18 and note from the mouth of Jesus, when speaking of dealing with an unrepentant brother, that the last resort is to take the case to the church, per verse 17 and if he remains unrepentant, that he is to be (gasp!) excommunicated!

Now, is obedience to the church something Christ wants you and I to do? If not, explain the reason for found the church with the awesome authority given it in Matthew 16:18-19 (somehing you have yet to do). Note further the disciplinary role she is to play, from the mouth of her founder.

Now, how is it that you "believe in Jesus" yet do not care to do all that He commands you to do?

You want to "follow Jesus," but only so far. You want to be your own church......maybe you even want to be your own "pope"?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Blest be God.
Blest be his holy name.
Blest be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blest be the name of Jesus.
Blest be his most sacred heart.
Blest be his most precious blood.
Blest be Jesus in the most holy sacrament of the altar.
Blest be the Holy Spirit, the Consoler.
Blest be the great Mother of God, Mary most holy.
Blest be her holy and immaculate conception.
Blest be her glorious assumption.
Blest be the name of Mary, virgin and mother.
Blest be Saint Joseph, her most chaste spouse.
Blest be God in his angels and in his saints.

- The Divine Praises -