Wouldn't you want to be blessed by Jesus Himself?

Singer · Jun 6, 2003

(Brother Ed)

Typical slander. I didn't say the Catholic Church. Go back up to the top and
re read my quote. I said the CATHOLIC FAITH. That is the universal Faith
which resided in the East and the West for 1500 years. It's principle
foundations are the 7 Sacraments, which Protestantism does not have.

(Singer)

There was faith before Catholicism, Ed.

What has the Vatican instructed a good Catholic to respond to that ?

Singer · Jun 7, 2003

(Brother Ed)

I said the CATHOLIC FAITH. That is the universal Faith
which resided in the East and the West for 1500 years.

(Singer)

There was faith before Catholicism, Ed .

*Just for comparison, I may go to a Catholic Board, get their response and
post it here. Watch for sparks to fly

GraceSaves · Jun 7, 2003

So much venom, Singer. It saddens me.

Grant

Singer · Jun 7, 2003

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any
twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and
spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of
the thoughts and intents of the heart

Your reaction is expected, Grant. It's what Catholics do when they run
out of answers. (Attack the person).

The word of God is the piercing fangs that do spoil to the venom of deception
known as Catholicism.

Are you going to let a simple statement like "There was faith before Catholicism"
embarrass you ..? I'll have to accept that the Vatican cannot handle that one.

GraceSaves · Jun 7, 2003

I forgive you, Singer.

May Christ bless you,

Grant

CatholicConvert · Jun 7, 2003

Singer --

Was there any chance of salvation outside of the Jewish Nation in the Old Covenant? I don't think so, although someone sharper than me might prove otherwise. The one and only Living God of the Universe revealed Himself to mankind through the Jewish nation, and all were expected to come to Him through the ordinances which He gave to mankind through the Jews.

So we see that there is a very simple formula for this: repent and come to God through your entrance into the covenantal nation, or go into perdition. End of story.

Why do you think that the new nation of the New Covenant, the Church, would be any different? Since God established His Church on earth, put an office over it for guidance and the protection of the truth, established authority in its bishops, including the authority to forgive sins, what makes you possibly think that there could be salvation outside that Church which Christ established upon earth?

The terms are the same from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. There is a single, physical, seen, authorative body on earth, called the Church, established by God, set up with rules and regulations, and which is the holder of the ordinances/sacraments which forgive sin. To join it is to have faith in God and to be obedient. To refuse it is to be in a state of rebellion, regardless of how many interesting theological, hermeneutical, or eclessiastical excuses you can manufacture in your great intelligence.

Brother Ed

C.S. Murphy · Jun 9, 2003

Ed there is no other name given whereby we must be saved. Christ or the catholic church you decide. All judgement is given to the son. Christ not the church. Only God can forgive sins not the church. He is the way the truth and the life not the church.
Murph

Singer · Jun 9, 2003

....what makes you possibly think that there could be salvation outside that
Church which Christ established upon earth?

Don't look at me, Ed. It's the Catholic Church that admits there is salvation
outside of the Catholic Church. What happened to the unity ?

GraceSaves · Jun 9, 2003

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Ed there is no other name given whereby we must be saved. Christ or the catholic church you decide. All judgement is given to the son. Christ not the church. Only God can forgive sins not the church. He is the way the truth and the life not the church.
Murph
Click to expand...

Last I checked, Jesus said:

"As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

God bless,

Grant

Singer · Jun 9, 2003

"As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

Problem is....Jesus didn't send anyone out in the name of the Catholic Church.

Jesus never even heard of the Catholic Church

trying2understand · Jun 9, 2003

Originally posted by Singer:
Jesus never even heard of the Catholic Church
Click to expand...

Then apparently, you do not believe that Jesus is God.

God is all knowing.

This is the sort of error you can fall into when you decide to be a church of one.

CatholicConvert · Jun 9, 2003

Don't look at me, Ed. It's the Catholic Church that admits there is salvation
outside of the Catholic Church. What happened to the unity ?
Click to expand...

You just make a HABIT of being wrong, don't you?

Do yourself a favor and type in the words DOMINUS IESUS in your search engine and then read the document. It is one of Pope John Paul II's later encyclicals and it states QUITE CLEARLY that there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH

This was stated so crystal clearly that a number of the pagans who were feeling warm and fuzzy regarding the eccumenical statements of the Church got into a frenzy of anger!! So did a number of the more liberal Protestants who read it.

The confusion that exists is that we simply do not know how far the boundaries of the Church exist. For instance, in seeing that baptism is an effacacious entrance into the covenant of God, the Church MUST THEREFORE state that those Protestants who have been properly baptized ("In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit") are indeed Christians, and therefore, even if unwilling to admit it, members of the Church.

There is also that curious passage in Romans 2 which seems to indicate that there are those who could be part of the Church IF AND ONLY IF they have never heard of Jesus the Christ, yet have kept His law in their hearts by the working of the Holy Spirit within. (Rom. 2: 13 - 16).

So God's mercy, being bountiful and great, may enfold a number of people we simply don't know about. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church tends to, as Dave Armstrong succinctly puts it "Hide the most glorious truths in the most confusing language possible". It seems a habit of theologians to be unable to make concise and well understood statements.

For instance, could you understand this:

"God gave to all mankind Christ Jesus, His only begotten Son, Who alone is the Savior of the world and to Whom ALL MANKIND must individually come in repentance for eternal life. Outside of faith in Christ there is no salvation, and while God's mercy may extend to those who, through no fault of their own, have neither heard of Him, nor heard the Good News of the Gospel, those who have heard of Christ Jesus MUST REPENT AND ENTER HIS KINGDOM, the Catholic Church, in order to find eternal life. All who refuse to do so shall be treated as rebels in the day of Judgement, in which Christ our Lord shall Himself shall sit as the divine Judge over all men, and they shall be sent into outer darkness."

My words. Not the Church's. Unfortunately, I have yet to see this kind of clear and concise statement from the Church regarding the pagans of the world, and it gives them false hope in their demon "gods" and demonic practices.

Maybe some day.....

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Singer · Jun 9, 2003

Then apparently, you do not believe that Jesus is God

That has nothing to do with my believing in the Catholic Church.

It is one of Pope John Paul II's later encyclicals and it states QUITE
CLEARLY that there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH

One word pops out at me....CULT !!!!!!
(What happened to the "saved but in an incomplete way" catagory) ?

God gave to all mankind Christ Jesus, His only begotten Son, Who alone is
the Savior of the world and to Whom ALL MANKIND must individually come
in repentance for eternal life.Outside of faith in Christ there is no salvation, and
while God's mercy may extend to those who, through no fault of their own, have
neither heard of Him, nor heard the Good News of the Gospel, those who have
heard of Christ Jesus MUST REPENT AND ENTER HIS KINGDOM, the
Catholic Church, in order to find eternal life

Excuse me for being blunt, Ed, but that statement is the most common narrowminded
deception amongst cults. I was raised in one...REMEMBER ??
Don't you think I can detect one when I see one ? God does NOT need the Catholic
Church to administer His Gospel of salvation. The Holy Spirit does not exist only
in the hearts of Catholics. The Good News is not a franchise of the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church does NOT have God in a box...unavailable to ME.
HIS KINGDOM is NOT the Catholic Church.

I didn't believe the lie that three generations of my own family presented to me
that salvation was only available in OUR CHURCH, that they were FIRST in
faith from Jesus Christ himself, that everyone else was deceived, that we had the
"Truth" and everyone else unwilling or not called by God to come to the realization
that was being crammed down our throats.

The Catholic Church is prominent in derailing the gospel message that says:

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open
the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That truth existed BEFORE Catholicism was invented, it exists regardless of
denomination, it exists in spite of Catholicism's ridiculous claims. Jesus Christ
did not bring the "good news" of Catholicism.!!!

The Gospel is NOT MUST REPENT AND ENTER HIS KINGDOM, the
Catholic Church, in order to find eternal life

What a SCAM !!

trying2understand · Jun 9, 2003

Originally posted by Singer:

Jesus never even heard of the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...

Posted by trying2understand:

Then apparently, you do not believe that Jesus is God.

God is all knowing.

This is the sort of error you can fall into when you decide to be a church of one.
Click to expand...

Originally posted by Singer:

That has nothing to do with my believing in the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...

You are right, it has nothing to do with you believing in the Catholic Church.

It has to do with you believing that Jesus has never heard of the Catholic Church.

If you believe that Jesus has never heard of the Catholic Church, as you have said, then it is logical to say that you do not believe that Jesus is God.

As God, Jesus would have heard of the Catholic Church. After all, you have heard of it.

The error which you have fallen into is not believing that Jesus is God. Or perhaps it is not knowing that God is all knowing.

Either way, you are most certainly in error.

Singer · Jun 9, 2003

Your "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church" lie might fly
today unless you compare it with salvation in the days that Jesus
walked the earth. Jesus (in AD 30) never heard of the Vatican, a pope,
Catholicism or the Rosary.

The "Good News" was spread by the apostles and Jesus was the example
of life after death (in AD 33), thousands ''came to Christ", "believed in Christ",
believed the Gospel or whatever you want to name it, they were saved to
eternal life and they did this in SPITE of the claims of Catholicism that
cropped up between 100 and 400 years after the fact.

It's still that way today ....viewers !

Catholicism is at least 100 years late in the race for Firstness!

There was faith/salvation before someone invented the Catholic Church.

There still IS !!

"Whosoever believes in Me shall never die" (Jesus) prior to AD 34

MEE · Jun 9, 2003

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

The confusion that exists is that we simply do not know how far the boundaries of the Church exist. For instance, in seeing that baptism is an effacacious entrance into the covenant of God, the Church MUST THEREFORE state that those Protestants who have been properly baptized ("In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit") are indeed Christians, and therefore, even if unwilling to admit it, members of the Church.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed
Click to expand...

Well, a big "AMEN" to that!

CC, where does it put me, not being baptized in the titles F,S & HG? If I being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, like the original formula of the early church, does that make me "unsaved" as well as the apostles, Mary and all of the early church?

As Singer says, "what about the ones before the CC came into existence?"

Not that I really expect to get an answer.

MEE
Click to expand...

Singer · Jun 9, 2003

Yup, you're being ignored, Carol.

If you believe that Jesus has never heard of the Catholic Church,
as you have said, then it is logical to say that you do not believe
that Jesus is God.

That was a childish jab, T2U. Maybe you don't realize that Jesus walked
on the earth in the flesh (God in the flesh) and there was no mention at
the time of the Catholic Church. He also did not discuss heart transplants
and cloning humans either, but that doesn't mean He would not have had
the potential to do so.

The lack of the mention of the Catholic Church sure derails your claims of
being the Bride of Christ, Body of Christ, Kingdom of God and the purpose
of creation, doesn't it ?

Do you Catholics think that Jesus came with the message of some gigantic
puzzle that was supposed to be resolved after the revealing of Catholicism?

Don't you suppose that the gospel message is simple, fully revealed in the
pages of the bible and concludes with the condition of the heart...(Confess
with the mouth and believe in thy heart that Jesus rose from the dead and
ye shall be saved).

That's the gospel afterall T2U. It isn't some revelation of a church.

MEE · Jun 10, 2003

Originally posted by Singer:
Yup, you're being ignored, Carol.

Click to expand...

I have checked my post since yesterday and still no response.

Singer, do you think possibly that if it keeps getting pushed aside that some will think that the truth will just disappear?

The ones that crucified Jesus thought that He was out of the way, but...guess what?.....He isn't!

God's "CHURCH" existed before Catholicism! History can't be changed. Ahh..except by those who think that they can.

MEE

Singer · Jun 10, 2003

Singer, do you think possibly that if it keeps getting pushed aside
that some will think that the truth will just disappear?

Very good point there and one that has been repeated over and over
on other Forums I've experienced. With any person or entity, there is
always a truth that the bearer does not want exposed. There is also
always something that the holder cannot answer and thus reacts with
either turnabout questioning, humor, personal attack or shunning.

Makes me wonder just what issues stump the Catholic Entity. As we've
experienced, one of them is the fact that they do not have an answer as
to why faith could be exercised unto salvation BEFORE the onset
of Catholicism. They make claims as to being the first church and the only
church and God's church, but the gospel was preached before Catholics
took up preaching and faith was evident and rewarded before Catholicism
evolved. If we're going to give credit to firstness, lets keep digging, because
Catholicism is definitely not first in the matter of faith. Abraham had faith
that was credited to him as righteousness. He was saved and he wasn't
Catholic, didn't honor the pope, never heard of all the Catholic claims to
glory, didn't experience purgatory, never attended a Mass, hailed Mary nor
did his salvation hinge on Peter being given any keys to a church. God is the
same yesterday, today and forever and doesn't rely on Catholicism to expedite
the kingdom.

Maybe you and others can add to the list of stumpers. Websites help and
I'll research more also. Here's a good one to start with:

http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Tracts/fbctruth.htm

In pursuit of truth,
Singer

Singer · Jun 17, 2003

CATHOLIC STUMPERS

1). There was saving grace through faith before Catholicism. (Singer)

2). What is truly amazing, is that the doctrine of purgatory completely
rejects Atonement! The Catholic doctrine of Atonement is not sufficient
for the Sins of ALL mankind? (Yelsew)

3). So Christ "saves you from Hell" but the RCC is your "savior from
purgatory".(Bob Ryan)

4). (Anyone?)

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