What is the Gospel?

Keith,

Are you at Concordia? I believe Rock For Life spent the night there.. we were in St. Louis for a weekend & I spent the weekend in Washington, MO speaking at a small country parish there (in Krakow actually).

God bless,

Carson
(in Ann Arbor, MI)

PS - on James - our author is clearly speaking of our justification before God.. of course, the Lutheran finds that unacceptable Luther, in his honesty, wouldn't go so far as to deny this obvious fact. Instead, he disowned the epistle. James doesn't employ the false dichotomy of the Protestant Revolt. Our faith and works are a self-same reality.

[ July 15, 2002, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Carson,
I like your profile,23 yrs.old and zealous for our Lord.My profile is incomplete,but I'm CoC.

If it were not for the fact that I have pledged allegience to the bible,I also would rule out James.If he was the brother of Jesus and was as wishy washy about where righteousness belongs as he was in the bible,then we have room for doubt.But considering that the book of James was Holy Spirit inspired,I back off.

This one thing to consider.James was writing to people who were already declared righteous.Faith is like a seed which produces works.Faith and works go hand in hand but Romans4 seperates their power.Faith and righteousness=works before men.

God bless,Charles

 

[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV

He does not say "If any man wants to be in Christ" nor does he say "If any man wants to stay in Christ", he says "If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature (or creation)". The change is a result of being in Christ, it is not how you get into Christ or stay in Christ.

[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV

Having trusted Christ, we have received the Holy Spirit. Genuine born again believers in Christ, have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them which will affect their actions. If somebody is exactly the same before and after supposed converting then they have not received the Holy Spirit and therefore have not been made into a new creation in Christ. The change is the result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit not the cause.

[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. - John 3:3 KJV

Jesus himself said you must be born again. There must be a change, a new creation. If a person is not a new creation then he or she can claim to have faith all he or she wants, that person does not really have faith in Christ. If that is the case, that claimed faith cannot save because it is not true faith in Christ. Because a person who is justified by faith in Christ alone is a new creation, that person will show evidence of being a new creation (notice that James said, "I will show you my faith by what I do", ie. his actions were a result of his faith and evidence of it, the same applies to the other examples that James gives, people act a certain way because they have faith) and so because we receive justification by faith alone and as a result we receive the Holy Spirit who changes us, a person who claims to have faith but has not the works of a new creation is not justified simply because he or she has not received the justifier. Therefore rather than taking a faulty interpretation of James 2 and ignoring Paul and John who have written much more, we reconsile James with the rest of the Bible.

[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:2-5 KJV

[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. - Romans 11:6 KJV

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV

[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24 KJV

There are many more verses that agree.

 

Oh, I'm so sure! That's why no people were there at all when Abraham offered Isaac up - he left the servants "afar off" where they couldn't see, remember? In fact, I doubt the servants even knew that God had commanded this. Isaac didn't even know when they first ascended the hill! And what of the angel that said "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me"? Was this angel speaking on his own behalf or speaking for God? It's quite obvious from the context that this WAS justification before God not men. In fact, didn't Jesus condemn those that do their good works to be seen of men? Mat 23:5

Now, it is obvious that Abraham was twice justified, isn't it? For Paul places his justification before circumcision and James after. This shows that justification isn't a one time thing, doesn't it?

[ July 15, 2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

I never said that. You misread my post. How can you reconcile your false interpretation of James 2 with the point of the chapter? He seeks to answer the question "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (vs 14) and concludes (vs 24) "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Considering that the question being asked is "can faith save him?" the answer must relate to justification before God, and it does!

[ July 15, 2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

In the above, I was talking about Romans 4:11 and how Paul was not justified by the Law. (1) The Law was not in effect until the time of Moses, so Abraham did not even know the Law and was not under the currently nonexistent Law. (2) He was justified while uncircumcised, so even if the Law had been around, he would not have been under it at the time of his justification by faith. He was of course circumcised after his justification as Paul indicates in the very verse that I cited "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:..."

[ July 16, 2002, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

Sola,

Whether Abraham was before the law,doesn't matter.Yes,he had a command to obey and yes he obeyed it.But the bible says that his faith was the prerequisite to imparted righteousness.

Faith is the struggle of the individual to respond to his discipleship.James is talking about christians who are not struggling enough.The book of James is not a stumbling block to being justified by faith but merely says faith is made perfect by works.

Even Jesus said you make disciples first,then you baptize them.In Acts19:1,although these people were not baptized in the name of Jesus,they were called disciples.Their correction was that they had not entered into the covenant of Jesus's completed works.In other words,their response to faith was inaccurate but their faith made them a disciple.

All of us,I suppose have inaccurate responses of some kind after our sins have been forgiven.But grace works through faith.If our response from faith needs correcting,then we need to correct it,that is how faith becomes perfect.

Oh well,it's just a matter of hermeneutics.Once you've fallen into the arms of grace,then all scripture takes on a new light.

God bless,Charles

 

Since the Law wasn't around yet, how could he have done the works of the Law? And since the Law is now gone (having been nailed to the cross), how could we do the works of the Law? I never said that the works of the Law justify, nor did James. And indeed, works do not justify at all without faith. Faith justifies and works makes faith perfect, but they are not the works of the Law nor of merit but the works of obedience to Christ for "he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Heb 5:9)

 

Sola:
I appreciate your post on justification. Biblical faith is always active. Abraham was justified before GOD because he did as God directed and not until. By faith Abraham offered.( Hebs. 11:7). By faith, Abraham obeyed. ( Hebs. 11:8). By faith Abraham,sojourned. ( Hebs. 11:9). If one starts with verse 6, he sees the Bibical definition of faith requires action. In every example in the chapter, faith is active.
These works were not meritorious. In verse 13, the Bible says these all died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but seeeing them a far off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Frank

 

Chemitz:
People should understand works before they draw their conclusions. you erroneous believe in only one kind of work... Merit! There many other types of works in the New Testament besides meritorious works. Consider the folowing:
1. Works of the Law. Gal.3:11.
2. Works of righteousness. Titus 3:5.
3. Works of the flesh. Gal. 5:19-21.
4. Works of merit. Eph. 2:8,9.
5. Works of an obedient active faith. Roms. 16:26.
Frank

 

Fellows,
I bow out.You guys are doing an excellent job of bringing the word of God to a better understanding.You are all my favorites.I say both sides win the prize of eternal life.Hope to join in on another subject.

God bless,Charles

 

This is wrong. It is not what the Bible teaches. The statement should read: Abraham was justified before God because he BELIEVED, not because he did. Salvation is always by faith, never by works. "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." (Eph.2:8:,9)

 

Call them whatever you want but works are still works.

[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:4-5 KJV

If salvation were by good works, it would not be by grace, rather it would be by merit (you can say that the some works are not meritous but it does not change the nature of the Law: if you do all the things required by the Law, you are acceptable in God's eyes, it is a merit system and saying that the works are not works of merit will not change the system)

[5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. - Romans 10:5 KJV

[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. - Galatians 3:12 KJV

see also the rest of Galatians chapter 3 (basically the whole chapter which is why I won't bother posting it)

Paul contrasts the Law which is a system by which if you do the things required by it you shall live, with faith, the two are opposites. Are before you try to say that works of faith and works of the Law are different things, consider this: What is the Law or any law? It is a list of dos and don'ts that if you follow them you are considered just. Whether you think there are 613 laws/commandments or significantly fewer does not change the fact that such a system is a works based system. If it is by works it is not by grace.

[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. - Romans 11:6 KJV

Notice that most of these verses don't mention types of works, they simply say works because works are just that, works, no matter what you try to call them. If we look at your list we find that types 1&2 are dealt with in Romans 10:5 and Galatians 3:12 (3 is also indirectly dealt with): He talks of the righteousness of the Law and how it is based not on faith but on works so right away we see that "works of righteousness" and "works of the Law" are both by definition works and according to the verse and common sense are not faith, they are works. Now because the reward of these works of the Law and righteousness, which are the same thing, is only given if you do the works, the works are meritous and so once again, works are works no matter what you call them. Now if you are doing all that is required by the Law (again it does not matter if there are 613, 10 or however many laws, you always have to keep them all) you are being obedient, but it is still works and since you care enough to actually obey God's law you must have some sort of faith in Him. Works of the flesh are simply works of evil and thus merit God's justice.

[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. - Hebrew 11:13 KJV

These all died without receiving the promises, they had faith + works but didn't do them any good until the day Christ said "It is finished" and then died for the sins of the world.

If we were to compare to common views of salvation and express them in equation form this is what we'd get:

1) faith + works = salvation

2) faith = salvation + works

View 1) states that works help attain or maintain salvation and denies that the death of Christ was sufficient payment for our sins, it denies Christ who said "It is finished" moments before he died. View 2) on the other hand, states that faith (that Christ atoned for our sins once and for all by His death in our place) is sufficient, it does not deny that we are saved by grace, it results in a redeemed soul, a changed heart, a new creation in Christ having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Good works are a result of this regeneration they do not in any way cause or maintain this regeneration, to say that they do is to deny grace.

8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV

Saved by grace through faith, the gift of God, not earned by works of any kind but created in Christ Jesus to do good works or for the mathematical thinkers:

faith = salvation + works

Rather than reposting these posts dealing with salvation and works, I'll just link to the previous 2 pages, just scroll down till you get to my fairly length posts:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000966;p=5

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000966&p=4

Here's another post that I will copy and paste from:

[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV

When a person truly places their faith in Christ, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit which is a deposit which guarantees salvation. If you give a deposit, you do not get the deposit back unless you pay up. Now since the deposit is the Holy Spirit, nobody is going to be taking the Holy Spirit with them to hell so you can be sure that if you really ever had the Holy Spirit to begin with, God will pay up and it just so happens that what He has promised to pay is eternal life with Him.

[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. - Matthew 7:20 KJV

If the Holy Spirit is truly in a person and working in his or her life then it should be noticable. Maybe not always and maybe not as much as it should but if the Spirit is there it should show.

[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23 KJV

The above are the signs of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If you do not see those things in your life, you should ask yourself why.