Use of numbers in the Bible and inerrancy

I understand that there are different ways that numbers can be used in the Bible.

1. Exact numbers - e.g. the miraculous catch of 153 fish.

2. Round numbers

3. Numbers as symbols - e.g. amillenialists view of the 1000 years in Rev 20.

My question is about round numbers. My understanding of inerrancy is that it allows for
round numbers, right?

I was teaching recently and made a comment about the 144,000 witnesses of Revelation to the effect that I did not know whether it was exact, round or symbolic. A couple of folks looked at me like I had just denied the resurrection. One fellow said that if I believed that, I would also deny the 6 day creation.

I know that in the NT, there is a greek word (hosei) for "about" that indicates an estimation.
When reading of the feeding of the 4000, or the 5000, or the salvation in Acts of the 3000, this word indicates that these are round numbers.

In Revelation, since this word is not used, does this mean that this number has to be either extact or symbolic?

What about the OT, though. Is there a Hebrew word for "about" that indicates estimation? Such as in the 1000 who died in the tower of Shechem in Judges 9:49? Or Judges 8:10? Here the 15000 warriors is translated in the KJV as "about 15000." But the slain are 120,000, not "about 120,000." Is latter exact and the former round?

JohnB,

Interesting subject.

The word "about" or "after" is used of the Day
Christ will return. Revelation states that the
7th Trumpet is "about to occur" when the Two Witnesses "finish their 1260-day task". I take
the 7th Trumpet to be the "last trump" which
must sound three times on the last day.

Jesus said He will return on one of the Days
"after" the great tribulation; but because of
the importance of the Jewish idiom that any
part of a day may stand for a whole 24-hour
day, we cannot know on which of 3 1/2 days
the 7th Trumpet will sound "after" the Beast
kills the Two Witnesses. Rev.11:7-11.

I think we must take the 1260 days literally
because, just as Daniel's 70th set of seven
ended on Palm Sunday, and the last solar day from BC 445 to AD 32 (or BC 444 to AD 33) had
to fall on Palm Sunday, so the 1260 days will
allow 30 days to be "cut off" from the 1290
of Dan.12:11 ... with up to 3 1/2 days more
until the last martyr has been killed on the
last day ... the Day only the Father knows!!

As for the 144,000, I think the break down of
12,000 for each of 12 tribes requires an exact
number ... esecially since they are to be the
"firstfruit unto both God and the the Lamb"
and the Son of Man will take them "on the
clouds of heaven to be presented to the Ancient
of days" just before the Coronation of Christ
at the 7th Trumpet. Rev.14:1-5; Dan.7:13-14.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

I'm not sure about the languages, but I find it hard to believe that every number in the Bible is exact.....there must be round numbers. For example, when the Bible says the brass basin (the sea) in front of the tabernacle was "round, being 10 cubits across and 30 cubits around), it does not take into account pi, which is 3.14. But pi is "about 3" which means it was roughly round.

Thank you Brother JohnB. YOu have a wise and
interesting post. It shows you probably know a bit
about arithemetic and perchance some higher order
mathematics (arithemetic is the basement of the math
tower).

In Bible study it is inerrancy (no errors) in which we are interested.
In the math arena it is 'accuracy' we deal with.
For there is no such thing as 'an inerrant measure'.
All measure is subject to error (though the 'error' in
measuring your house's plan and the material used to build
it is small enough that not to much wind blows through
your house

Consider the difference between 'metaphor' and 'simile':

metaphor - a figure of speech in which an explicit
comparison is made showing something which it is literally not

simile - a a figure of speech in which an explicit
comparison is made showing something which it is literally not;
'like' or 'as' is present

example simile: your lips are like red roses
example metaphor: darlin' you're the yellow rose of Texas

(I mention this because in prophetic literature especially
there are lot of 'retorical devices' and 'figures of speech'.
I'm not sure anybody but those with a bachelors in English
should be allowed to go to Seminary )

To show variations in accuracy mathmaticians use the
± (plus or minus symbol) to show the variation either
in absolue units or percentage units.
For example if i measure a human foot to the nearest size
it might be 9±1 (that is somewhere between size 8 and size 10
but most likely near size 9).

Say the 144,000 followers of Christ mentioned in
chapters 7 and 14 of Revelation - 12,000 from each of
the 12 tribes of Israel.
Is that 12,000±3. Say there are 12,002 from Dan - are we
going say God didn't fulfill His prophecy. I don't think so.
Say the 1,000 years of some saints reigning with Christ -
are we going to resign our reigh if it is only 998 years long?
is that 1,000±4 years long?

A couple of numbers I want to talk about is 'first'
and 'last'. Because most people don't know the first
think about 'last'

Somehow some think (especially junior high droupouts of
the Cult of Ignorant Baptists) that first = 1.

Well, I went to the 12th grade, but first I went to
the 11th grade. Here FIRST is related to ELEVEN.
And by the way, order is only one think 'first' can be.
'First' can be the PRIMARY of the group. For example,
Israel's 11th son, Joseph, became the primary or first
son of Israel - without JOseph neither Israel nor the
sons of Israel would have survived without Joseph.
Here FIRST is related to ELEVEN.

(some people don't see that this matters. IT does matter,
there are two ways to count:
1) start with zero
2) start with one

When Americans determine their age, they start at
age zero. When Chineese determine their age, they start
coutnting with one (which btw is more like anti-abortionists
think).


Then there are nubmers that are really approximate.
For example in Revelation where it talks about 200,000,000
(two hundred million). The actual term is two hundred
myriads of myriads. Well, if a myriad
is a literal 1,000 then the number would work out to 200 Million.
But frequently 'myriad' just means like the English word
'bunches'.
So 'two hundred myriads of myriads' would work out to:
200 bunches of bunches or maybe even 200 gobs of bunches.
In any case, that is a lot of bad stuff comming out of the pit.

Mel Miller: //I take
the 7th Trumpet to be the "last trump" which
must sound three times on the last day.//

This is a logical assumption. One would have
to check your logical conslusions. If any of your
logical consclusisons are incorrect, then it might
be because your logical assumption was incorrect.
Most people won't let 'last' happen three times.
Like 'first', 'last' is associated with one.
Let me tell you something I've heard (i did NOT hear
it from a reliable source). There are three trumpets blown
at the Jewish feast of Trumpets:

1. the first shofar
2. the last shofar
3. the great trumpet

So the last shofar isn't the last trumpet.
Again 'last' is NOT limited only to order, but can
also mean things like 'importance'.

JohnB: //My question is about round numbers. My understanding
of inerrancy is that it allows for
round numbers, right?//

Yes, the doctrine of the inerrancy of the Bibles is
that it allows for round numbers. However, many who believe
most loudly about what the Bible is or isn't don't have
much of an arithemetical background. So the message
gets lost in the static of ignorance (ignorance = not knowing,
not judging for non knowning).

Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies.

My belief is that if the Bible gives a number, i.e. 180,000, 144,000, 5,000 or even 300 it is an exact number.

The 144,000 in Revelation, for instance, were in a vision given to John. I believe that was not symbolic, nor was it an estimate.

The 5,000 that were fed was an exact amount of men ( besides women and children).

Numbers were put there in the Word of God for a reason, they are exact, they are precise.

standingfirminChrist,

Your response sounds so much more solid and
responsible than the following quotes in
regard to the "last trump":

Quote:
_______________________________________________
"Order is only one think 'first' can be. 'First' can be the PRIMARY of the group. For example, Israel's 11th son, Joseph, became the primary or first son of Israel - without JOseph neither Israel nor sons of Israel would have survived. Here FIRST is related to ELEVEN".

1. the first shofar
2. the last shofar
3. the great trumpet

So the last shofar isn't the last trumpet.
Again 'last' is NOT limited only to order, but can also mean things like 'importance'".
_______________________________________________
If the Last Trump sounds on the Day Christ is
crowned King of kings, by what logic has Ed Edwards proved that the "last shofar IS NOT the last trump"? Let's consider a much better understanding of the Last Trump:

The Last Trump must sound three times on the
same "last day" since Jesus will "raise up all
believers on the last day, the day of His apocalypse". John 6:38-40,44,54; Luke 17:30.
_______________________________________________

I. At the "last trump" in the Book of Revelation
Christ will be crowned King of kings on the day
that He "judges every believer and brings His
reward with Him for every believer". Dan.7:14; Rev.11:18; Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12.

II. At the "last trump" of I Cor.15:52 God promises to "bring the souls of all who sleep in Jesus WITH Him and to catch up all who survive to meeet them in the air". I Thess.4:13-17. If
this trump sounds before the great tribulation,
it cannot possibly be the "last" and still be
able to include "all the saints who will and must come WITH Jesus". I Thess.3:13.

III. At the "last trump, the great trumpet
that sounds immediately after the great
tribulation," Matt.24:31, it cannot be the "last" unless it sounds after Christ is crowned King of kings; for He will be crowned King while He is still in heaven...and Peter preached in Acts 3:21 that "Jesus must remain in heaven until the appointed (kairos) times to restore all things".

The same trumpet must sound three times on the
SAME day. What evidence was given above to
support Ed Edward's claim that the "last shofar
is not the last trump".

Ed Edwards shows his usual "twist of truth" in preaching that the "last shofar (the 2nd of 3
blasts) is not the last trump" when ALL of us will be changed...in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"!

I must use the term "twist of truth" since he
refuses to even admit the "possibility" that
the same trumpet may sound three times on the
same "appointed day" of Christ's Coronation.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

There really are spelling, English, and math classes, folks. Really. Bible study is also available. If you are all over the map with each of these, I find it difficult to follow your line of reasoning. But then reasoning isn't spiritual. I'd better quit. I'm starting to sound like Simon Cowell.

Mel Miller: //The same trumpet must sound three times on the
SAME day. //

We welcome your scripture proof ....

Mel Miller: //I must use the term "twist of truth" since he
refuses to even admit the "possibility" that
the same trumpet may sound three times on the
same "appointed day" of Christ's Coronation. //

You are twisting what I said. I just offhand don't know of any
verse that implies 3 same-day blasts.

What I was trying to show with my 3-trumpets on the
Feast of Trumpets is that there can be mulitple LAST trumpets.
It is an assumption to assume the last trumpet of 1 Thess 4
is the same as the 7-th Trumpet of Revelation. Such an assumption
leads to conflicting other scriptural data.

Ed Edwards,

Wrong. I did not "twist what you said".
You admitted my view was a "logical assumption". You listed three trumpets that could be called the "last trump":
Quote:
__________________________________________
1. the first shofar
2. the last shofar
3. the great trumpet
__________________________________________

You picked out #2 as not being the last
trump, i.e., "So the last shofar isn't the
last trumpet".
__________________________________________

But Jesus said the "great trumpet" that you
included as a possible "last trump" will
sound "when He appears after the great
tribulation".

Since you have already claimed His word "after" means "before", I suppose you will be consistent
and claim the "great trumpet" to which Jesus
referred is the "last trump" for a Pre-Trib
Rapture. And you are an expert in English!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Mel Miller: //You admitted my view was a "logical assumption". //

I appologize for the insult.

Mel Miller: //You listed three trumpets that could be called the "last trump":
Quote:
____________________
1. the first shofar
2. the last shofar
3. the great trumpet
________________________//

You missed what I said.
I said that each year for the past some 2200 years at the
Feast of Trumpets in each practicing Synagogue that
i hear these trumpets are blown;

1. the first shofar
2. the last shofar
3. the great trumpet

I said nothing whatsoever about the "last trump".

However, I still think it a FALSE logical assumption to
assume the LAST TRUMP of 1 Cor 15 and the 7th Trumpet
of the book of Revelation are the SAME CALL.
I leads to contradictions that i've been trying to point out.

However, I've been a total failure at doing it -- nobody said it
would be easy.

Mel Miller: //You admitted my view was a "logical assumption". //

I appologize for the insult.

Mel Miller: //You listed three trumpets that could be called the "last trump":
Quote:
____________________
1. the first shofar
2. the last shofar
3. the great trumpet
________________________//

You missed what I said.
I said that each year for the past some 2200 years at the
Feast of Trumpets in each practicing Synagogue that
i hear these trumpets are blown;

1. the first shofar
2. the last shofar
3. the great trumpet

I said nothing whatsoever about the "last trump".

However, I still think it a FALSE logical assumption to
assume the LAST TRUMP of 1 Cor 15 and the 7th Trumpet
of the book of Revelation are the SAME CALL.
I leads to contradictions that i've been trying to point out.

However, I've been a total failure at doing it -- nobody said it
would be easy.

Mel Miller: //Since you have already claimed His word "after" means "before", I suppose you will be consistent
and claim the "great trumpet" to which Jesus
referred is the "last trump" for a Pre-Trib
Rapture. And you are an expert in English!!//

I've never claimed to be 'an expert in English'.
I am an expert in Logic.

I never claimed that 'after' means 'before',
again you deliberatly misunderstand me. You never seem
to disagree (expected in debates) - you always claim
stuff I didn't say (as though you don't understand me.
All of these are illogical and unkind debate techniques.

What I did say is that the structure of Matthew 24:3
dictates that the 'after the tribulation of those days'
in Matthew 24:29 applies ONLY to Matthew 24:29
to Matthew 24:30 and NOT to Matthew 24:30 to Revelation 22:21.
The logical/kind debate technique would be to say:
" the 'after the triublation of those days' in Matthew 24:29
does apply to Matthew 24:30."

Trumpret is a "VOICE", Jesus, as Jesus, (Comforter/Holy Ghost) did not speak in the OT, Israel did not have a "Comforter".

The rapture is the "LAST TRUMP" of the "VOICE" of Jesus, or "comforter/Holy Ghost",

Israel will then go back to listening to the "Holy Spirit", or "Voice of God" through the "law and prophet", (two witnesses, Moses/Elijah)

Ed Edwards,

You have tried to make a point! But how?

I am sure you implied that in Matt.24:31 Jesus refers to the Pre-Trib Rapture which you
teach is "before" the Great Tribulation. This
verse states that the angels will "gather the
elect out of all extremities of the heavens"!

I will take time later to prove my point.

I conclude from the context of His discourse
that Jesus meant ALL of Matt.24:29-31 occurs
"after" the Great Tribulation.

Your disclaimer above does not even mention
verse 31. What an obvious, telltale omission!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

I'm typing in the dark.
Here is what I should have typed:

What I did say is that the structure of Matthew 24:3
dictates that the 'after the tribulation of those days'
in Matthew 24:29 applies ONLY to Matthew 24:29
to Matthew 24:30 and NOT to Matthew 24:31 to Revelation 22:21.
The logical/kind debate technique would be to say:
" the 'after the tribuilation of those days' in Matthew 24:29
does apply to Matthew 24:31."

Mel Miller: //I conclude from the context of His discourse
that Jesus meant ALL of Matt.24:29-31 occurs
"after" the Great Tribulation.//

I conclude from the context of His discourse
that Jesus meant ONLY of Matt.24:29-30 occurs
"after" the Great Tribulation.

Your assumption is not morally superior to my assumption.
Your assumption leads to contradicitons, mine does not.
So my assumption is better than yours.

JohnB

I copied this from "Zolaboard", thought it might interest you.

The only part I've confirmed is the 1948 years, first Adam to Abraham, Father of Israel, 1948 years,

Second Adam, Jesus until Israel restored as a nation, also 1948 years.

Subject: About 1948.


This is about the year 1948, and what the Bible says about it. This is to show just how accuret the Bible is.


On May-14-1948 the state called Israel came into being in one day. This date in history was prophecied several times in the Bible. I felt as though I just had to share this with every one. Hopefully this will change the minds of just a few.


When you add the years from first born to first born , from Adam to Abraham you 'll see that Abraham was born 1948 years after God created Adam. This was the birth date of the father of Issac and Jacob, who later God called Jacob,Israel.


This is the first time the number 1948 can be found in the Bible. And the second time is in


Joshua 19-48, This is the inheritance of the tribe of Dan according to thier families,these cities with their villages.


Dan was the last tribe to receive their alotment of land. It was the seventh alotment. 7 x 10 = 70 x 49 = 3430, this will be a number that will lead us to another 1948. So stay tuned and learn.


If I told you there was proof that there were, other books and verses in the Bible that showed the year 1948, would you want to know about them ?
What if I told you the book of Psalms were the years from 1901 to 2050.
Now this could just be a great big coincedence but, the book of psalms just happens to be the 19'th book in the Bible.


This would make Psalm:01 19;01. And Psalm ;4-8 would be 19;4-8, I will both lie down in peace , and sleep; for you alone, O Lord, make me dwell in safety.


Revelation;12-14,But the woman{the tribe Judah}, was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the presence of the serpant.


In 1947ad, Just 2.5 years after the end of World War Two, in October of 1947 the Jews from the concentration camps started their return to Palistine, by the 1000's. The British who were in controll of Palistine at the time, could not stop the influx of Jews coming back, by boat-train-or-plane. Which has two great wings. And they became afraid that the Jews coming back would start another bloody and costly war, which they could not afford. So in May of 1948, they packed up and left Palistine, leaving the Jews unprotected. They drew up a plan and gave it to the countrys of Russia and the U.S.A. And on May-14-1948 they became a nation in one day.


So what happened here was the tribe of Judah came into their own place in 1947 and were set free the next year, being 1948. And they lived under threat of war for 52.5 years. But were untouchable, during that time.


Leviticus:25-8,'And you shall count seven sabbaths of years for your self, seven times seven years; and the time of the seven sabbaths of years shall be to you fourty-nine years.[11] 'That fiftieth year shall be a Jubilee to you; you shall niether sow nor reap what grows of its own accord, nor gather the grapes of your untended vine. [13] 'In this year of Jubilee, each of you shall return to his own possession.


The 50'th year is the first year of each set of 49 years.
49 + 1 + 48 + 1 + 48 = 147.
--------------------3 x 49 = 147. 147 + 1 = 148.


When the tribe of Judah returned to Israel, in 1948, this was fullfiled


Isaiah;66-8,Who has heard such a thing?
--------------Who has seen such a thing ?

--Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day ?
--Or shall a nation be born at once ??
--For as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her childen.


Genesis--------book #-01.
Exodus--------book #-02.
Leviticus------book #-03.
Numbers------book #-04.
Deuteronomy book #-05.
Joshua---------book #-06.
Judges---------book #-07.
Ruth-----------book #-08.
1 Samuel------book #-09.
2 Samuel------book #-10.
1 Kings -------book #-11.
2 Kings--------book #-12.
1 Chronicels--book #-13.
2 Chronicels--book #-14.
Ezra------------book #-15.
Nehemiah-----book #-16.
Ester-----------book #-17.
Job-------------book #-18.
Psalm----------book #-19.


Now the book of Psalms being the 19'th book in the Bible would make Psalm 48, the 19'th book and 48'th Psalm, or 19'th & 48'th. 1948.


Psalm 48;4-For behold the kings assembled, they passed by together, 5 they saw it, and and so they marveled; they were troubled, they hastened away. 6 Fear took hold of them there, and pain, as of a woman in birth pangs, 7 As when you break the ships of Tarshish, with an east wind. 8 As wew have heard, so we have seen, in the city of the lord of host. In the city of our God; God will establish it for ever.


If this is just a coincedence I'll eat my hat.


Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac was the father of Jaboc, Jacob had his name changed to Israel, by all mighty God. Abraham was born 1948 years after Adam was created. 290 years after Abraham was born The tribe of Israel moved into Egypt. This was the year 2238 from Adam. 430 years later they came out of Egypt in the year 2668 from Adam.


--,1948
-+0290
-+0430
-=2668 years.
----480 years after the Exodus king Solomon gave the command to build the Lords Temple. This would have been the year 3148 from Adam.And 1200 years after Abraham was born.

Adam to Exodus--1948 yrs. Abraham to Exodus--290 years.
Exodus to Comm---480 yrs. Abraham to Comm---480 years.
Adam to Comm---3148 yrs. Abraham to Comm--1200 years.


Now take the number of years from Davids birth to his death, which was 70 years and add that to the number of years that each king, from the tribe of Judah reighned over Jerusalem, and you get 493 years from the time David was born untill the tribe of Judah was taken into captivity in Babylon.


480 - 70 = 410 years. 410 - 4 = 406. King david was born 406 years after Exodus. It was 423 years after David died that his tribe was taken into Babylon.
David was 3 when they stopped having thier sabbaths years of rest.


Adam to Command---3148 years. Abraham to Command-1200 years.
Command to Babylon--419 years. Command to Babylon----419 years
Adam to Babylon------3567 years. Abraham to Babylon-----1619 years.


So from the time Adam was created to the time Judah was taken into Babylon was 3567 years and from Abraham to Babylon was 1619 years.


I have to do this so you'll know I did not make this up.


Because numbers DO NOT LIE.

The time that the tribe of Judah spent in Babylon was 70 years.

2 Chronicles;36-21,to fulfill the word of the Lord, by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

It was in the first year after Babylon fell to king Cyrus of Persia, that the proclamation was given to rebuild Jerusalem.

Ezra;1-2,Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me, And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.

Jeremiah;29-10, For thus says the Lord; Afetr seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place. { Jerusalem.}

Adam to Babylon--3567 years. Abraham to Babylon--1619 years.
----------------- +70 years.--------------- + 70 years.
Total Time frame-3637 years. Total Time frame is----1689 years.

Daniel said that from the time the command to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah shall be cut off was 69 weeks. This week is a 7 year period. So 69 x 7 would be 483 years. King Cyrus gave the command 70 years after the tribe of Judah went into Babylon so 483 years later would have been 553 years. This would lead us to the second year of Christ. Take off the 2 years and you are left with 551 years, from Babylon to Christ birth. Christ was cut off at the age of two, and sent to Egypt, and we know little about Him until He, started his ministry at the age of 30. And He did this for 3 years.

So far we have 3637 years from Adam till the Jews left Babylon.
And we have---1689 years from Abraham until they left Babylon.

Now take the 483 years and add that to the 3637 years and you get 4120 years from Adam to Christ second year. And 2172 years from Abraham to Christ second year. Take off the 2 years and you have 4118 years from Adam and 2170 years from Abraham.

Adam to Christ--4118 years. Abraham to Christ--2170 years.
Christ to Cross-----33 years. Christ to Cross----------33 years.
Adam to Cross--4151 years. Abraham to Cross--2203 years.

Now we know that the Exodus took place in the year 2668 after Adam and it was that year that God gave the Written Law to the Israelites. This started the seven sabbaths of seven years. Which is 49 years.

Adam to Exodus--2668 years. And 4 x 17 = 68. 68 x 49 = 3332 years.
68 x 49 = -----------3332 years.
Total time frame--6000 years.
Adam to Cross-4151 years.
6000 - 4151 years = 1849 years. This makes the year 1849 from the Cross the year 6000 from Adam, and the last year of 68 sets of seven sabbaths of seven years,and the year 4052 from Abraham. This gets interesting from here.

The number 70 is found in the Bible 100's of times, and when you multiply
70 x 49 you get 3430. This would be 3430 years, when you take seventy sets of seven sabbaths of seven years.

Now 1849, being the year 6000 from Adam and,the year 3332 from Exodus then it would also be the year 4052 from Abraham.

Adam to Exodus--2668 years. Abraham to Exodus-0720 years.
Exodus to Cross--1483 years. Exodus to Cross-----1483 years.
Cross to 1849-----1849 years. Cross to 1849 ad----1849 years.
Total Time frame-6000 years. -----------------------------4052 years.
1483 + 1849 = 3332 years.

70 x 49 = 3430 years, and when you take this 3430 years and subtract it from 4151 years from Adam to the cross you are left with 1947 years. This makes 1947 the last set of seventy sets of seven sabbtahs of seven years, and it makes 1948 the 71'st Jubilee from Exodus.

Also the year 1947 is the year 6098 from Adam and this makes 1948 the year 6099. This also the year 3431 from Exodus, and the 4151 from Abraham.

Did you chatch that?? Adam to the Cross--4151 years.
And from Abraham to the rebirth of Israel-4151 years.

Adam to Exodus---2668 years. Abraham to Exodus---0720 years.
Exodus to David---0406 years. Exodus to Command---480 years.
David to Babylon--0493 years. Command to Freedom--489 years.
Babylon to Christ--0551 years. Freedom to Cross-------514 years.
Cross to 1947------1947 years. Cross to----1947------1947 years.
Adam to 1947 ad--6098 years. Abraham to 1947------4150 years.
Which makes 1948-6099 and the year--------------------4151.

Now just to make you think about the times we live in, here is some food for thought.

Noah died in the year 2006 from Adam. The Jews were set free from Babylon and 481 years later Jesus was born. He died for our sins 33 years later, and 2006 years after His death would be 2520 years.
2520 ~ 7 = 360.
360 is 120 x 3. 120 is the number of completion.

And the Trinity is God as 120
and the Son as--------------120
and the Holy Spirit as------120,
which adds up to-----------360, which is a perfect circle. Now for some more,
Adam to Cross---------------4151 years.
Abraham to 1948 ad-------4151 years.
Noahs death to 2006 ad--4151 years.

Jesus was ressurected in the year---4151.
Israel was ressurected in the year----4151.
We might be ressurected in the year 4151.
Noahs death to cross--2145 + 2006 = 4151.

Ed Edwards,

Are you admitting my logic is correct that Matt.24:31 refers to the gathering of the Elect "after" the great tribualtion ... and
not to your view that He refers to a Pre-Trib
Rapture?

It will still be dark on the Day Christ comes
when He sends the angels to Rapture all the Elect from all extremities of the heavens
"after" the great tribulation as He stated!!!

After all, you cannot deny that in the same
context "in the days after the tribulation", He
will not only send the angels but He will first "gather the elect from earth to heaven".
Mark 13:24-27.

Or are you also implying that in verse 27
Jesus is again referring to a Pre-Trib Rapture?

And you have failed to refute any of my three
main references to sounding 0NE Last Trump:

I.. At the "last trump" in the Book of Revelation
Christ will be crowned King of kings on the day
that He "judges every believer and brings His
rewards with Him for every believer". Dan.7:14; Rev.11:18; Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12.

II. At the "last trump" of I Cor.15:52 God will
"bring the souls of all who sleep in Jesus WITH Him and catch up all who survive to meeet them in the air". I Thess.4:13-17. If this trump sounds before the great tribulation as you say,
it cannot possibly be the "last trump" and still be able to include "all the saints who will and must come WITH Jesus". I Thess.3:13.

III. At the "last trump, the great trumpet
that sounds immediately after the great
tribulation," Matt.24:31, it cannot be the "last in TIME" unless it sounds after Christ is crowned King of kings; for He will be crowned King while He is still in heaven...and Peter preached in Acts 3:21 that "Jesus must remain in heaven until the appointed (kairos) times to restore all things".

Your best effort, so far, in meeting your cost
of $380 of "God's time" is to suggest that the "last trump" is LAST in importance rather than being LAST in TIME, i.e., on the last day!

Speaking of being kind, my friend, I have just ignored your demeaning remarks about my lack
of knowledge.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Ed Edwards,

I continue to just ignore your unkindness in
placing others "beneath" your exalted status ...
as I am among those with a "small mind"!

But now you admit to having written what I
thought you had challenged me to prove, i.e., that "Jesus meant ONLY Matt.24:29-30 (and not vs.31) occurs `after' Great Tribulation. Thanks for the assistance!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

JohnB asked:

I was teaching recently and made a comment about the 144,000 witnesses of Revelation to the effect that I did not know whether it was exact, round or symbolic. A couple of folks looked at me like I had just denied the resurrection.

It never ceases to amaze me that people can read the Revelation and find helicopters, Belgian mainframe computers, subdermal microchip implants, cashless societies, a one-world New Age religion, and a revived ten-nation Roman Empire, but if you suggest that the numbers are symbolic or not precise, they look at you like you were John Shelby Spong.

It must mean exactly 144,000 . . . that's what the Bible says, isn't it?

JohnB was asking about numbers in general and this has turned yet again into a discussion of eschatology.

Please keep the discussion on the original topic.