Catholics Deny Christ

AngelMum

"Asking your friends to pray for you is WAY different than vernerating a dead person and praying to them."

Do you really think that the Christians who died before us are dead? Don't you think they go to heaven and perhaps are more alive than us? I sure hope so or all this believin in Jesus stuff is just a waste of time.

Go ahead, hit me with it "but they can't hear us". Please do back it up with scripture. By the way, why on earth did Jesus cure that guy in Luke 18 who kept saying over and over, "Jesus son of David have mercy on me"? Now I will leave it to God to know whether my repition is vain or not, not you. But I think that verse among others speaks of repition as not being all bad. Here is another even better one:

Revelation 4:8
And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."


Do you think God minds this repetition? Says they "DO NOT CEASE".

Blessings

 

(1) Jesus is the source of all graces.
(2) Mary gave us Jesus.
(3) Mary is the mediatrix of all graces.

 

You mean... "right".

But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law (Gal 4:4)

 

3AngelsMom, do you ever act as a mediatrix for your children? Do you pray for them, help them, and point them to God? Or do you leave them to handle spiritual things totally on their own? </font>[/QUOTE]Again, this isn't mediating, it is intercession. Intercession is not mediation.

Of course I pray for my kids!

God Bless

 

According to dictionary definitions of "pray" and "venerate", it's not really different at all. </font>[/QUOTE]venerate: To regard with reverential respect; to honor with mingled respect and awe; to reverence; to revere

Pray: To address earnest request to; to supplicate; to entreat; to implore; to beseech.

NOT the same.

 

Again, this isn't mediating, it is intercession. Intercession is not mediation

Of course it's mediating. Don't deny it for what it is.

To mediate is to act as an intermediary, and when you pray for someone, you are acting as an intermediary between them and God.

That's simple deductive logic.

 

Please define what number constitutes "vain reptition".

Please define what "vain" means.

Please explain why in revelations that the angels repeat over and over the same verse at the throne.

Do you agree that religious songs are a form of worship?


LaRae </font>[/QUOTE]Vain repetition: what number? Well repetition is usually defined as more than once.
Vain: for your own reasons. Self pleasing.

Which Angel? Which phrase?

Songs are worship, not prayers. Praying is something that should be specific to you and your thoughts. They should not be from another mans mind.

God Bless

 

Why doesn't this forum have an emoticon of a smiley face banging his head against the wall? </font>[/QUOTE]How about this one?

 

Again, the repetition is not bad, it is the vain part. I am pretty sure that the sinless beings that are around the throne are not doing anything in vain.

If you want to know what I think about hell and where the dead are, go read through the 'where is hell' and 'will the LOF ever go out' threads. I don't want to derail this topic with that subject.

I never accused you of praying in vain. I just posted some verses.

What you do is between you and God, I am just pointing out the error in doctrine.

God Bless.

 

Carson, that doesn't say that Mary GAVE us Jesus. It says He was born of her. All people are born of somebody. My mother is not the one who gave me life though.

God Bless.

 

Please define what number constitutes "vain reptition".

Please define what "vain" means.

Please explain why in revelations that the angels repeat over and over the same verse at the throne.

Do you agree that religious songs are a form of worship?


LaRae [/qb][/QUOTE]Vain repetition: what number? Well repetition is usually defined as more than once.
Vain: for your own reasons. Self pleasing.

Which Angel? Which phrase?

Songs are worship, not prayers. Praying is something that should be specific to you and your thoughts. They should not be from another mans mind.

God Bless [/QB][/QUOTE]

So you disagree that songs can't be prayer...or worship?

So if reptition is anything more than once...I know alot of people who better stop saying AMen Amen Amen or Praise Jesus Praise Jesus.

I have yet to use 'vain prayers' and I don't believe I have ever met a Catholic yet that does either.

I said Angel, my goof...I mean the creatures in Revelations....someone else posted that scripture in this thread...maybe page 3?


LaRae

 

AngelMum,

How many times since John saw this vision in the BofR do you think this has been said in heaven?

Revelation 4:8
And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."

Note it says "THEY DO NOT CEASE". So is this vain repetition?

 

You are absolutely correct.

I recant:

I do not make intercession for my children, the Holy Spirit does.

I am neither an intercessor or a mediator for anyone. God alone is the Mediator and the Holy Spirit is our only intercessor.

 

I am sure that you could 'sing' your prayers, but I thought you were referring to written songs, like hymns. Were you not? Those songs would not be a prayer, per se, because they are written from someone else's heart. They would be worship though.

Prayer is a personal thing. It is you talking to God. Bringing your petitions, thanksgiving, worries, fears, etc to Him.

I see a clear difference between 'worship' and 'prayer'.

Again there is a difference between vain repetitions and repetitions. I defined both above.

The creatures are not doing it in vain. It is irrelevant.

God Bless

 

I am sure that you could 'sing' your prayers, but I thought you were referring to written songs, like hymns. Were you not? Those songs would not be a prayer, per se, because they are written from someone else's heart. They would be worship though.

Prayer is a personal thing. It is you talking to God. Bringing your petitions, thanksgiving, worries, fears, etc to Him.

I see a clear difference between 'worship' and 'prayer'.

Again there is a difference between vain repetitions and repetitions. I defined both above.

The creatures are not doing it in vain. It is irrelevant.

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]So you think the Lords Prayer doesn't qualify? So if someone put the Lords Prayer to song (which has been done) that somehow makes it no longer a prayer?

You don't think hyms would also fall into the same category? I know I've seen some hymns that sure do seem to meet the criteria of a prayer.

The creatures aren't praying in vain and neither are the Catholics.


LaRae

 

Well, at least we know you disagree with DHK, who claims that prayer and worship are one and the same.

God bless,

Grant

 

AngelMum:

"What you do is between you and God, I am just pointing out the error in doctrine."

I am confused. What is this docrine. That we are supposed to vainly repeat prayers. I have never had anyone tell me to do that as a Catholic. You brought up vein repetition. But then you admit that repetion isn't bad. Then you admit that you cannot judge whether my repetition is vein or not. But then you say the doctrine is in error. It is apparent you don't even know what a doctrine is as a prayer is a practice, not a doctrine, though it may contain doctrinal issues. So explain to me how the vein repetition verses show that a doctrine of the Catholic Church is wrong. Which doctrine? Could you quote that Catechism of the Catholic Church that you have been studying. Methinks I smell that same old fruitcake protestant arguement passed around that when it comes under real scrutiny does not hold water.

Blessings.

PS. Please don't accuse me of calling you a fruitcake. The comment had reference to Christmass fruitcakes that get given as gifts year after year.

[ February 03, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

Where are you from? Why do you keep calling me MUM?

Anyway. I didn't start the 'vain repetitions' conversation. This thread was about praying to Mary. Remember? I posted verses to prove that we are to pray to God.

The vain one looked like it went well there. I have know Catholics who do their 'required' Rosaries 'in vain' because they do it, so they can clear a record that they are getting ready to go out and dirty up again.

I didn't say YOU are praying in vain!

Why are you so defensive at me posting a verse????

Chill.

And btw, I didn't think you were calling me a fruitcake, and I am not a protestant.

 

Carson, that doesn't say that Mary GAVE us Jesus. It says He was born of her. All people are born of somebody. My mother is not the one who gave me life though.

The Annunciation was not a form of divine rape. Mary had a "fiat" to give. No "fiat" (Latin for "yes), No Jesus.

[ February 04, 2003, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]