Book burnings

Just a few comments then I will take the advice of Joshua and move on.

Mike of Ulster,

"The Roman Vulgate is NOT a Bible"
That is real news to almost every Bible scholar. You seem to be so upset with the Catholic Church that you deny anything she touched, regardless of value and truth. Your views give us a little understanding of why Protestant and Catholic Christians disrespect each other so much in Northern Ireland. And all in the name of Jesus too.

Ernie of North Dakota,

Yes Ernie I think you missed the concerns and / or the point.

1. It is great to have a burn barrell. One more advantage of living in the country. I have one at the barn and one at the house. If you saw my desk you would think my burn barrell does not get enough work.

2. The issue is not burning trash, including pornography. The issue is burning the words and thoughts of other Christians with whom you disagree. Looking at your photo you certainly are old enough (maybe in history class film) to have seen the burning of books by Nazis. This whole intolerance and bigotry is the concern.

History is the reason African Americans fought against the use of chain gangs in Alabama. Not saying those guys don't deserve punishment. Just that there is symbolism in many acts. If your ancestors had been bound in chains and sold as slaves, you also would object to the symbolism of Chain gangs.

Why don't we tattoo the arms of felons, homosexuals, and Mormons or Catholics? Because of the history of six million Jews in WWII Europe.

You see "dancing" around a fire that burns books has too much history. Well maybe they don't dance, but they probably are having a good time cheering and singing. I just don't see a church that practices book burning as spending much effort in spreading the love of Christ.

It's not about "free speech" at all. The constitution allows all kinds of speech that you would not permit at your table or the Lord's Table in your church. Just because it's not forbidden by law does not mean that it is a good thing to do.
Those are my thoughts.

Grace and peace,
Uncle Ray

 

Ernie,

I will support to the death your first amendment right to burn books.

Although I still disagree with it on principle, there's a huge diference between what you're describing and what Mike is describing.

You're describing doing something in the privacy of your own home for your own amusement.

Mike is describing making it a public spectacle and doing it as part of a mob. In a truly "Twilight Zone"-ish bit of logic, he goes on to explain that it's an opportunity for evangelism.

Whatever you do in your own home most likely has no effect on someone else but to do this in public is making a political statement with the implication (whether real or imagined) to the targeted community being, "you're next".

Mike

 

Many independent Baptist churches in my country still do this, Ernie.
I pastored a church once, that church began from a Bible study to a mission church to a fully organized, self-governing, independent Baptist church in a heavily Roman Catholic and animist place in the city of Manila, and many of those God converted in that church brought their icons and images and smashed them right there inside the church after their baptism.

 

Well, Pinoy, seems that the Christians in the RP would not be welcome in many of the churches here as they would be censored for declaring their freedom from the opression of Catholism.

Yes, freedom from opression, many here have no idea how Rome opresses their people. The brethren in the Philippine rejoice in there freedom and do this by publicly(in the church) get rid of the past to show their freedom.

None of you have seen a 66 year old man stand in the baptistry saying "for 66 years the priests have been lying to me, but now I am free in Christ. Well, praise The Lord, he is free do do that in his country but it would be considered politically incorrect in many of the churcheds represented here.. Shame! Shame! on you!

Ernie

 

Didn't you just have a thread closed on this very forum, a couple of days ago, for raising the issue of whether Catholics are saved or not?

 

Looking back of mikesnedding's post I see a bit if inconsistency.

"Once every 3 or 4 months my church..."

"Each time dozens of folks..."

Sounds like it has happened quite a number of times doesn't it? When questioned it became:

"We have only held a couple to date..."

I would also question the accuracy of "each time dozens of folks...".

Am I to understand that in Northern Ireland, of all places, Catholics are converting to a Free Presbyterian church by the dozens?

Free Presbyterian? A denomination that claims itself to have only 75 churches worldwide after of period of fifty years?

Just doesn't seem to ring true.

 

And still your story changes. I invite everyone to go back through this thread and judge for yourself whether what was just posted above is at all similar to what what originally represented.

Tell me, when you go door to door, do you tell these people that your intent is burn these things?

BTW, how many members does your churh have? Pick a number that will consistent with a fifty percent increase while having 10-15 non members there for each of the couple (two times) that you had these burnings.

Oh yes, last time I checked 10-15 was not dozens.

Sorry, but I keep having new insights. So when you knock on the door of a Catholic home and ask if they have anything which is a wicked influence on their lives, they give you a Bible?

[ June 10, 2002, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

No, but I couldn't say that everything necessarily dishonors Christ, either.

Either way, I don't think I could justify making such a powerful statement knowing that these were the people Christ commanded me to reach out to.

Instead, what I would do would be to study what the Bible said about the things I found objectionable about these books and use them as an opportunity to engage my gay/Buddhist/Hindu neighbors.

To simply burn them seems like a cop-out to me because now you don't have to use discernment and you don't have to venture out into the world where, God forbid, you might be challenged. You can just light a match and POOF! the problem doesn't exsist anymore.

No offense, but it seems like a coward's way out to me.

I'm not sure that's the best way to determine what's scriptural or not.

Mike

 

Some people just live to disagree and pick apart those who try to do right.

Get off Mike's back and listen to what he is saying.

It seems all some want to do is find fault, but only those opposed to the "legalists" have this liberty. If one of us "egalist" suggest someone has a spiritual problem we are reprimanded.

Mike has just related a practice in his church that is working much more effectively than the "hamburger" evangelism so prevelant in mant Baptist churches in America.

When the lost see Christians destroying their idols they realize they have something real. Many Protestant churches teach that you can keep your sin and still be a Christian..Mike's cjurch is making a statement that many self proclaimed IFB churches in Amrica have stop preaching; you are to die to self and live for Christ, but them if they preached this they might have to trust God for members instead of their programs.

Go ahead, take offense, you think it is cute to attack "fundies", but no one is to question your practice.

Remeber, Jesus told the crowd, he who is without sin cast the first stone, most "fundies" or "legalists" will admit they are not without sin but we do have 1 John 1:9 and use it regularly.

Ernie

 

Originally posted by Ernie Brazee:
Some people just live to disagree and pick apart those who try to do right.

No question about that, unfortunately.

Get off Mike's back and listen to what he is saying.

Oh believe me, I have...

It seems all some want to do is find fault, but only those opposed to the "legalists" have this liberty. If one of us "egalist" suggest someone has a spiritual problem we are reprimanded.

Mike has just related a practice in his church that is working much more effectively than the "hamburger" evangelism so prevelant in mant Baptist churches in America.

But I hope you see Smoke_Eater's point, that church growth in no way proves a church is pleasing God. Actually, the only thing it proves is that it is pleasing visitors!

When the lost see Christians destroying their idols they realize they have something real.

I do agree that radical Christian behavior is a striking testimony to how powerful the belief of those Christians is. If the behavior is radical because it is Spirit-led then certainly that's a powerful witness for Christ.

Many Protestant churches teach that you can keep your sin and still be a Christian..

Perhaps so; but that might be more because they believe in the grace of God which superabounded where sin abounded, than because they don't understand the sinfulness of sin, in God's eyes.

Mike's cjurch is making a statement that many self proclaimed IFB churches in Amrica have stop preaching; you are to die to self and live for Christ, but them if they preached this they might have to trust God for members instead of their programs.

Teaching the way of the cross need not be connected with book-burning, though.

Go ahead, take offense, you think it is cute to attack "fundies", but no one is to question your practice.

You can question mine anytime you like!

Remeber, Jesus told the crowd, he who is without sin cast the first stone, most "fundies" or "legalists" will admit they are not without sin but we do have 1 John 1:9 and use it regularly.

Ah but by accusing others of casting stones you have cast one yourself...tricky, isn't it? It sure is hard to set those stones down...and yet we all live in glass houses...

[ June 10, 2002, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

I have no doubt at all that in some convoluted way Mike thinks he's doing the right thing, but every thing we do has reprecussions and it doesn't sound like he's thought about what the reprecussions of this might be.

I always try to give credit where credit is due, but it's hard to be sympathetic when someone is so obviously wrong.

The difference between us, Ernie, is that we're judging the act and expressing our disagreement with the act, itself.

You guys are the ones who judge the person. Mike has told us that Catholics can't be Christians. Connieman has told us in another thread that Arminians can't be Christians. If I had a nickel for everytime you put someone down, Ernie, because they did something you didn't agree with, but was perfectly acceptable in God's sight I could retire a rich man.

Mormonism is huge and getting bigger every day. Does that mean that their practices are acceptable?

Silly me. I thought they would know we were Christians by our love for one another.

Wait a second, you and Mike have both appealed to the "success" of his church's program and now you're saying that churches should trust God instead? Which is it?

[qb]

[/quote]

Question all you like. Just learn to seperate the practice from the person.

[qb]

Right. But then you go and attack others who have sinned or, worse, who you feel have sinned. Is a little consistancy too much to ask?

Mike

[ June 10, 2002, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

God brought me to my Damascus Road 29 years ago, Ernie.
Prior to that, I was part of an underground armed group opposing the dictatorship that ruled my country. You know who I'm talking about.
Eventually I embraced the atheism of that group.
Three things caused me to be an atheist.
First, when I was a teenager, I watched an uncle smash all his "saints" to pieces in a fit of anger
and then pick up those same pieces of plaster and paste them back together, and kneel before them again. One of my cousins whispered to me, " I don't need a god I can throw around and break in pieces, I need one who can throw me around and break me in pieces.

Second, my wife is from Samar, in the Visayas, and I loved to go boar hunting. Necessarily, that takes me deep into the jungles of that province and I would stay in those jungles for days. Eventually, I developed a friendship with some villagers who did slash-burn farming.
One day, a small baby girl died of diarrhea, and as I was in the area at the time, I helped carry the small coffin down to the municipality and we walked 23 miles of mountain trails sometimes knee-deep in mud so we can have the baby "blessed" before burial.
We waited 2 days in that Roman Catholic church for the priest who was in one of his parishioner's houses playing "mahjong" - a chinese game where you bet on pieces of tiles.
His chief altar boy said he already knew we were there but refuses to leave the table. Finally, he did come, visibly irritated, did his ceremonies
rather hurriedly and left.

The third was in Cebu City, if you know where it's at. I had just alighted from a passenger vehicle in front of the Santo Nino church and was met by candle vendors who you buy candles from, and they then light those candles, and dance in front of the door church waving those candles petitioning the Holy Child for favor for you.
I saw one of the Spanish Friars on that particular day standing in the shadows with a sneer on his face while he watched one of these
candle-waving devotees.

It is hard to understand the feeling of one set free from such a religion of works and traditions to worship the true and living God. A feeling that moves one to break in pieces the icons and images he regarded as representations of God in accordance with the false teachers of the RCC.

It is one of the strengths of this United States that we do not have a religion or church the states and the federal government favors.

May it always be that way.

 

I'll agree with that statement, PinoyBaptist, and I think that this is part of the issue with this topic. Mike Snedding lives in a country that has been in religious turmoil for decades now and it has influenced his thinking on this issue. It is hard for us, as Americans, to relate to this. I am not condemning nor condoning the actions described by Mike and his church in this statement, but rather just trying to shed some light on what's being stated.

 

Clint, is this a defense of Mike's church friends' behavior? Are you saying "Mike and his friends don't know any better because they were raised in a culture where violence and hate are widespread"?

I think I would question that they don't, if that's what you are saying.

One response I have, about the relative difference in cultures is - if violence and hate are widespread, in a culture, and you as a church offer the violence of book-burning and the hate of Catholics, then you are not being counter-cultural at all, and you are appealing to what people already love, which is not of Christ. So I would expect to see church growth. But what you will have is, not radically changed lives for Jesus Christ, by the love of Christ, but simply a 'Christian club' where you have different names for what you hate and different things you do violence to.

Not only that - I think it's very sad when Christians don't call each other on 'loving to hate', which to me is not at all the true love God wants to give us, through the Holy Spirit, made possible by the death of our Lord Jesus Christ...

 

Revoke it?

Since when did God say "Do likewise"?

That was a different time and a different culture. We would do well - imo - to think as carefully as possible which things we read about in Scripture, God wants us to do today, in the time and culture that we live in.

Mike, the pastor you said was jailed for arson - where did he get the idea of burning things? Did he burn something down 'to please God'? What did he burn? Why?

 

No, AITB, it was a neutral statement adding perspective. Nothing more, nothing less.