Preterism and "This Generation"

Here is the problem with your interpretation. You are forcing historical events into the future and then devising all these complicated "guesses" to make them fit. You just cannot accept the possibility that Matt 24 is fulfilled. If you did you would have to admit that you have been wrong for 52 years. Here is what Baptist believed before the brainwashing occured.

Here is a list of those I will quote.

Dr. John Owen
(1616 - 1683)

John A. Broadus
(1827-1895)
Postmillennialist | Professor of New Testament
Interpretation and Homiletics Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1859-1895

Justin Martyr
(100- 165)

Matthew Henry
(1662-1714)

Sir Isaac Newton
(1642-1727

St. Aurelius Augustine
(A.D. 354 - 430)

Henry Hammond
(1605-1660)
THE FATHER OF ENGLISH EXEGESIS | Royal chaplain of King Charles I

Dr. John Gill(1697- 1771)
BAPTIST

Also Calvin and Spurgeon.

C.H. Spurgeon
On Matthew 24:4
"They were to beware lest any of the pretended Messiahs should lead them astray, as they would pervert many others. A large number of impostors came forward before the destruction of Jerusalem, giving out that they were the anointed of God"

On Matthew 24:15-21 , the Abomination of Desolation
"This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215.

John A Broadus
On Matthew 24:15
"It is evident that our Lord interprets the prediction in Daniel as referring to the Messiah, and to that destruction of the city and temple which he is now foretelling; and his interpretation is authoritative for us." ibid., vol. 1, p.486)

Matthew Henry

On Matthew 24:14
"It is intimated that the gospel should be, if not heard, yet at least heard of, throughout the then known world, before the destruction of Jerusalem; that the Old-Testament church should not be quite dissolved till the New Testament was pretty well settled, had got considerable footing, and began to make some figure. Better is the face of a corrupt degenerate church than none at all. Within forty years after Christ's death, the sound of the gospel was gone forth to the ends of the earth, Romans 10:18. St. Paul fully preached the gospel from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum; and the other apostles were not idle. The persecuting of the saints at Jerusalem helped to disperse them, so that they went every where, preaching the word, Acts 8:1–4. And when the tidings of the Redeemer are sent over all parts of the world, then shall come the end of the Jewish state. Thus, that which they thought to prevent, by putting Christ to death, they thereby procured; all men believed on him, and the Romans came, and took away their place and nation, John 11:48. Paul speaks of the gospel being come to all the world, and preached to every creature, Colossians 1:6, 23." Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

On Luke 21:29
"Christ tells his disciples to observe the signs of the times, which they might judge by. He charges them to look upon the ruin of the Jewish nation as near."

John Gill

On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation
Ver. 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, From signs, Christ proceeds to the immediate cause of the destruction of Jerusalem; which was, "the abomination of desolation", or the desolating abomination; or that abominable thing, which threatened and brought desolation upon the city, temple, and nation: by which is meant, not any statue placed in the temple by the Romans, or their order; not the golden eagle which Herod set upon the temple gate, for that was before Christ said these words; nor the image of Tiberius Caesar, which Pilate is said to bring into the temple; for this, if true, must be about this time; whereas Christ cannot be thought to refer to anything so near at hand; much less the statue of Adrian, set in the most holy place, which was an hundred and thirty years and upwards, after the destruction of the city and temple; nor the statue of Titus, who destroyed both, which does not appear: ever to be set up, or attempted; nor of Caligula, which, though ordered, was prevented being placed there: but the Roman army is designed; see #Lu 21:20

John Calvin:
On Matthew 24:34
"The meaning therefore is: "This prophecy does not relate to evils that are distant, and which posterity will see after the lapse of many centuries, but which are now hanging over you, and ready to fall in one mass, so that there is no part of it which the present generation will not experience."
"For within fifty years the city was destroyed and the temple was razed, the whole country was reduced to a hideous desert, and the obstinacy of the world rose up against God." (Commentary on the Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 3, trans. by William Pringle (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949), 151.

John Gill
On Matthew 24:34 ; Forty Years and That Generation

"Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, etc. Not the generation of men in general; as if these sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there would always be a set of Christians, or believers of Christ in the world, till all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live till all things were fulfilled; see Matt. xvi.27-28,

CH Spurgeon
On Matthew 24:32-33
"Our Lord here evidently returns to often made use of its illuminated the subject of the destruction of Jerusalem, and in these words gives his apostles warning concerning the signs of the times.

John A Broadus
On Matthew 24:34
"The emphasis is on 'all.' All the things predicted in v. 4-31 would occur before or in immediate connection with the destruction of Jerusalem. (p. 492)

John A Broadus
On Matthew 24:28
"Christ shall be revealed with a sudden vengeance; for when God shall cast off the city and people, grown ripe for destruction, like a carcase thrown out, the Roman soldiers, like eagles, shall straight fly to it with their eagles (ensigns) to tear and devour it."

"The meaning of the saying as here applied seems to be, that things will come to pass when the occasion for them exists. When Jerusalem is ready for destruction, the Roman armies will gather and destroy it." (ibid, p. 489)

St. Augustine
On Matthew 24:22
"For we ought not to doubt that when Jerusalem was overthrown, there were among that people elect of God who had believed out of the circumcision, or would have believed, elect before the foundation of the world, for whose sake those days should be shortened, and their evils made endurable."
"For let us not suppose that the computation of Daniel's weeks was interfered with by this shortening of those days, or that they were not already at that time complete, but had to be completed afterwards in the end of all things, for Luke most plainly testifies that the prophecy of Daniel was accomplished at the time when p. 814 Jerusalem was overthrown." In loc., Golden Chain

John A Broadus

On Matthew 24:30 ; Nature of Christ's Return

"Six months earlier (in 16:27 f. he had declared that would come again in the glory of his Father, as the sovereign Judge of mankind; and that some of them then present would live to see him 'coming in his kingdom.' We there found it necessary to understand that the particular coming to which this last phrase especially refers took place at the destruction of Jerusalem, which made Christianity completely and manifestly distinct from Judaism, and established the Messianic kingdom in its permanent present state. The prediction then briefly made by our Lord is now as a result of Matthew 24:30 more fully unfolded vol 1, Matthew, p. 479.

John Gill
On Matthew 24:26
"It was usual for these imposters to lead their followers into deserts, pretending to work wonders in such solitary places: so during the siege, Simon, the son of Giora, collected together many thousands in the mountains and desert parts of Judaea; and the above-mentioned Jonathan, after the destruction of the city, lead great multitudes into the desert: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not; or should others say, behold, or for certain, the Messiah is in some one of the secret and fortified places of the temple; where, during some time of the siege, were John and Eleazar, the heads of the zealots; do not believe them. Some reference may be had to the chamber of secrets, which was in the temple; 'for in the sanctuary there were two chambers; one was called ... the chamber of secrets, and the other the chamber of vessels' " John Gill, on Matthew 24:26.

On Matthew 24:29
Ver. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, &c. That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass;

John Owen
On Matthew 24:29
"Not to hold you too long upon what is so plain and evident, you may take it for a rule, that, in the denunciations of the judgments of God, through all the prophets, heaven, sun, moon, stars, and the like appearing beauties and glories of the aspectable heavens, are taken for governments, governors, dominions in political states, as Isa. 14:12-15; Jer 15:9, 51:25. Isaiah 13:13; Ps. 68:6; Joel 2:10; Rev. 8:12; Matt. 24:29; Luke 21:25; Isa 60:20; Obad. 4; Rev 8:13; 11:12; 20:11." vol. 8, p. 255, in a sermon entitled Shaking and Translating of Heaven and Earth, preached on April 19, 1649

On Matthew 24:30
"So upon or in the destruction of Jerusalem, Luke 21:27, the Son of man is said to 'come in a cloud, with power and great glory' - and they that escape in that desolation are said to 'stand before the Son of man, ver. 36." (vol. 9, p. 139)

Henry Hammond

On Matthew 24:30
"And this shall appear to be a signal punishment upon the Jews, and they shall with sorrow (though too late) take notice of it as a notable act of revenge of the crucified Christ upon those that were guilty of his death." (v. 1, p. 116, new ed.)

(On the Reliability of Christ's Declarations of Imminence) "If, in this coming of the Lord, this day of vengeance belonged to the day of judgment (now after so many years not yet come) what a forbearance were this? What a delay of his coming? and consequently what an objection against the truth of the christian religion. As Mahomet having promised, after his death, he would presently return to life again, and having not performed his promise in a thousand years, is by us justly condemned as an impostor."

John Owen
On the New Heavens and Earth
'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state

Justin Martyr
On the 'Millennial Reign' of Christ
CHAP. XI.--WHAT KINGDOM CHRISTIANS LOOK FOR.

And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid. Justin's First Apology , ch. 11

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion ,temporal 1000 years, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." Trypho, 80


Sir Isaac Newton
On the Symbolism of Apocalyptic /hermeneutics_apocalyptic. ; The New Heavens and Earth
"The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)

 

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Thanks,
Gina

 

Ed: --------------------------
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)
-----------------------------------

Grasshopper: //Here is the problem with your interpretation.
You are forcing historical events into the future
and then devising all these complicated "guesses"
to make them fit.//

To those who don't study a lot of eschatological (last things)
books, this is NOT usually presented as a pretribulation
rapture/resurrection argument. The Holy Spirit gave it to
me about the year 2000, after I'd been saved for 48 years.
Here are some more details that the Holy Spirit showed me
about this passage:

-----------------------------------
A bit about Greek and Hebrew and the polysyndeton KAI.
In Greek is a word KAI. It is translated usually AND
but also THEN, BUT. Note in Genesis Chapter 1 most
sentences start with AND. This is a Hebrew list
(and might not even be chronological but thematic
in order). Note the many verses in Matthew 24
that start with AND and have AND internal to the verse.
Most of these are NOT the normal connective AND but
are the Greek polysyndeton AND.
The New Testament book of Matthew was written before
the invention of Microsoft Word. So they didn't use
bullets back then (in fact the wrote all the words together
to save valuable writing space) or outlines.
In fact, it is difficult to tell the major outline of
this passage. BUt letting the Bible interpert the Bible,
we see that the questions the desciples asked Jesus
gives the major outline of the passage. The outline is
not in time sequence, but in the sequence the disciples
asked the questions.


The following is an original writing of Ed
(i.e. was not copied from someone else).
---------------------------

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

I think I'll just stick with Spurgeon, Gill, Owen, Calvin............

 

I think I'll just stick with Jesus, John, Paul...

 

Amen, Brother Danrusdad -- Preach it!

Gina L "Please site your sources to ensure you're within copyright laws and fair use boundaries"

Sorry to mention that i'd complied with your
ORDER - it confused some folks

 

Ed,

When are you going to deal with the historical words associated with the great tribulation? I have listed them for you several times. Your avoidance behaviour tells me that you are very much aware that your viewpoint does not hold up to the scrutiny of the scriptures themselves.

 

Come on, Ed, how can you make words like "on the housetop", "Judaea", "flee to the mountains", and "Jerusalem compassed with armies" be associated with a tribulation future to your day? These were all things that characterized the first century scenario in 70 A.D.......and you know it.

Futurism hasn't a leg to stand on.

 

Uh, Justin was there claiming the kingdom was future to him. Not only that, but in the Trypho letter, in the section immediately after what you quoted:
"For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genist, Meristae, Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not
hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

[ November 12, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

Eric,

Will YOU deal with the historical words I posted???? Ed refuses. Be a man and deal with them head on!

"Holy place"
"flee to the mountains"
"Judaea"
"sabbath day"
Jerusalem compassed with armies"
"on the housetop"


Please tell the list how you can make these terms to fit a present day scenario? On the housetop?? That was a distinct first century custom! - read Acts 10:9! ALL of the above terms are plainly connected to the first century and 70 A.D.

Waiting.......

Mustard please!

Warren

 

Warren asked about these:

-"Holy place"
-"flee to the mountains"
-"Judaea"
-"sabbath day"
-Jerusalem compassed with armies"
-"on the housetop"

Six of these are shown in this passage:

Matthew 25:15-22 (HCSB):

"So when you see the abomination that causes desolation ,
spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing
in the holy place" (let the reader understand),
16 "then those in Judea must flee to the mountains!
17 A man on the housetop must not come down to get
things out of his house.
18 And a man in the field must not go back to get
his clothes.
19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days!
20 [v]Pray that your escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath[/b].
21 For at that time there will be great tribulation,
the kind that hasn't taken place since the beginning
of the world until now, and never will again!
22 Unless those days were cut short,
no one would survive. But because of the elect
those days will be cut short.

I note the futuristic nature of these passages.
Daniel said these would be in the "middle of the week"
not 70-33= 37 years after something.
I believe in a future 7-year period starting with
a pretribulation rapture/ressurection. In the middle
of the week the antichrist will go into the newly rebuilt
temple, probably for the dedication. There/then antichrist
will commit the AOD. Many Jews will see the antichrist
for what he is and also believe that the rejected one,
Jesus, is the real Messiah (not the phony anti-messiah).
Thus God's plan that a maximum number of Jews will
be saved will come to fruition. Ending the tribulation
time will be the Second Advent of Jesus, the Christ, in
power and glory before all the world.

None of these terms in this passage preclude my beliefs.

Warren: "Please tell the list how you can make
these terms to fit a present day scenario?"

Bad question. None of these concepts preclue a future
tribulation period. These things will happen (if necessary,
again).

What is bankrupt is Preterism.
In this viewpoint we are all in some kind of mystic/spiritual
Kingdom of God. The mystic so-called-Christians have a better
idea: even the prophecies Preterists think are literal
and past are mystical beyond our understanding.

 

Ed,

Oh my! Ed, "on the housetop" is not a modern practice. Jerusalem was compassed with armies in 70 A.D., before that generation had passed. Jesus kept his word. But you say he will come again to the earth - Jesus never taught that! So you have to "double fulfill" everything to make your view work. That's called playing with the word of God. You have no right to double fulfill something when you know it already was fulfilled WHEN Jesus said it would!

Ed, you really need to be honest with yourself. Jesus either told the truth or he lied. He said that ALL would be fulfilled before "this generation" had passed, meaning the then-presentb generation. I have PROVED what generation Jesus was speaking of by simply comparing other references (Lk.11:51, 17:25, Matt.23:36, etc..). So he either lied or was telling the truth? And he doesn't need your help to tell the truth! Claiming double fulfillment is saying that Jesus needs a little help to tell the truth, so we will pan out "this generation" over the last 2000 years (Ed's church age). Come on, Ed, you know that is wrong, but PRIDE is holding you in bondage here.

It all pointed to the wrath of God that was poured out on Jerusalem for the blood of the prophets and God's Son. 70 A.D. was "the day of the Lord". It was "the wrath of God". It was the end of the Old Covenant age. It fits so well.

Warren

 

Warren: //Ed, you really need to be honest with yourself.
Jesus either told the truth or he lied. He said that ALL
would be fulfilled before "this generation" had passed,
meaning the then-presentb generation.//

Sorry Brother Warren, Jesus is NOT telling the truth
or lying based on your mis-understanding of the definition
of "this generation".

Warren: "So you have to "double fulfill" everything
to make your view work.//

Only about 15% has to be doubled. Better
than having 85% unfulfilled on
the physical plane as in Preterism.

-Honest with himself Ed,
living in HOPE of the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection.

 

Ed,

So whatever you say has to be double fulfilled has to be double fulfilled? Where's the line? The fact is, everything Jesus said would come true before that generation had passed DID come true.

What you need to see, Ed, is that Jesus answered all three elements of the disciple' question of "when" those things would be fulfilled by putting all three under the same time statement, namely, "this generation". It was all or nothing in the first century generation. We KNOW that Jerusalem and the Temple were desolated in 70 A.D. Therefore, the other two element - the coming of the Lord and the end of the age - had to have been fulfilled at that time also.

Indeed, the cataclysmic destruction in 70 A.D. was perfectly consistent with past days of the Lord in which God sent destroying armies to desolate a nation or city.

Ed, you're just plain wrong in your 2000 year long definition of "this generation". The term itself is used several times throughout the gospels. For instance, Jesus said he would be "rejected of this generation" (Lk.17:25). Jesus was rejected of the first century Jewish generation. He also said that "the blood of all the prophets would be required of this generation" (Lk.11:51). Historian and theologian alike know that the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was a Divine wrath and judgment upon the Jews.

So come clean and admit you are wrong. Don't change the Word of God to fit your preconcieved Schofieldism. You have no choice but to take Jesus at his word regarding the fulfillment of all things before "this generation" had passed.

The term itself implies that there were OTHER generations - READ MATT>1:1-17!!!!!!!!!!!

It also implies a SPECIFIC generation - OBVIOUSLY the then-present generation!!!!!!!!!

This is basic stuff, Ed. Surely that's how you would understand the term "this generation" if it was spoken to you today by someone.

Baptists are in bondage to Schofieldism.

Warren

 

Your statements are self-contradicting:

Warren: "So whatever you say has to be double fulfilled
has to be double fulfilled? Where's the line?"

Warren: "So come clean and admit you are wrong.
Don't change the Word of God to fit your preconcieved Schofieldism."

Warren: "Baptists are in bondage to Schofieldism."

The first says Ed is responsible for Ed's error,
the second that Schofield is responsible,
the third that Baptists are responsible. Who are
you trying to blame here?

BTW, why are we talking about Ed, Schofield, and Baptists
when the topic is //Preterism and "This Generation"//
Attempts to change subjects usually indicate a feeling
of supporting a loosing cause

Major proposition:
When Jesus uses "this generation" in the Mount Olivet
Discource (MOD) He means "the church age".

The MOD of Jesus shows a pretribulation coming of
Jesus to collect the church age elect saints.

 

those particular terms can either be fulfilled only in the first century (because it is other aspects of the prophecies that are unfulfilled, and require future fulfillment), or they can be doubly fulfilled. If the temple is rebuilt, then there will again be a "holy place". Not recognized by God (since that age did pass), but still, to readers. It can also be the Church, which is the typical "new Jerusalem", and has gone right behind the old Jerusalem in becomin corrupt. So the judgment is repeated to it.
"to the mountains", and Judaea can be repeated for those in Israel. "sabbath" can apply to any Jewish believer who still keeps it, or evenlosely, to Christians who observe Suday that strictly. But yes, these are more relevant to the first century readers. As we have said, it is other things that have not been fulfilled yet.
As for "on the housetop"; I never quite understood that anyway. I don't see how you could be protected from armies or any other destruction like that; so I never really knew what the significance of that stement was anyway. Perhaps you could explain it more to us.

You keep knocking double fulfillment, but since you preterists say you still believe in going to heaven when we die (Just like those Justin spoke of ), then aren't all of those heavenly pictures at the end of Revelation, Isaiah, and elsewhere, that you say are symbolic of the [present] Church age, ultimately shadows of heavenly realities? Us "Dwelling in God's presence", "seeing Him", etc. spiritually now foreshadow being in His actual presence and literally seeing Him through these new spirit "bodies" we are supposed to get? We are told no more pain, no more tears. You say that is just freedom from the bondage of the Old Covenant. But still, doesn't this foreshadow hevaen? Why else would such heavenly symbolism be used? If not, then it seems God was pulling our legs, and who knows what is after we die? It could be more pain amd misery.
But if these "blessings" in this "kingdom" foreshadow heavenly existence, then it is all dual fulfillment! We are given in the Bible types that lead to more types, as one of the others once put it.
So the only difference between preterism and dual fulfillment is whether the physical is thrown away forever, and spirits just float to heaven; or whether the physical is at some point redeemed, and we are literally bodily resurrected, just like Christ. It's this area where full preterism stretches things much further than any futurist interpretation.

 

Ed,

The blame is on all of the above. You are responsible for believing the twisted, failed and wacky teachings of futurism, and Schofield is responsibble for popularizing them. Baptists in general accept Schofield's dispensational doctrine because it's the only one they've ever been taught. They laud the Schofield Bible as the greatest Bible out there, and they view Schofield as some great scholar.

How you can continue to believe that "this generation" is a 2000 year Church age is beyond me. I've shown you from every angle that your definition is INCONSISTENT WITH OTHER REFERENCES where the same term plainly meant the first century generation.

If I were to say to you, "Ed, this generation has it's own kind of music", would you dare to think I was referring to the next 2000 years?? Surely not! We have other usages too that demonstrate a RESTRICTED TIME PERIOD LIMITED TO A LIFESPAN. How about "the next generation"? Tom Brokaw wrote a best-selling book about the people who persevered through WWII - it's called "The Greatest Generation"". Was Brokaw referring to the present time? Surely not! He was referring to the people alive at the time of WWII. Likewise, when Jesus said "this generation", he meant the people living at that time.

Two well-known Gr.-Eng Lexicons of the New Testament define GENEA as "the sum total of men living at a GIVEN time." Did you catch that, Ed? Not endless generations, but the sum total of men alive at a given time.

The Jews were very meticulous in their documentation of generations - read the geneologies in Matt.1, Lk.3, and several O.T. ones as well. All of those generations were distinguished by the names appropriated to them. Very plain.

So the bottom line, Ed, is that your definition is according to your imagination, not the scriptures themselves. We MUST remain CONSISTENT with how the scriptures use the term "this generation". Else, it's anything goes. Futurism is anything goes!

Warren

 

Warren: "The blame is on all of the above. You are responsible for believing the twisted, failed and wacky teachings of futurism, and Schofield is responsibble for popularizing them. Baptists in general accept Schofield's dispensational doctrine because it's the only one they've ever been taught."

Actually i've studied all the teaching of futurism.
I accept the outlook that is Futurist, dispensational,
premillinnial and pretribulation BY CHOICE. I don't just
believe these i HOPE these. And my HOPE is not negoictable
nor for sell so some smothed tongue gospel hacker.

Here are some comparisons i've compiled among the various
eschatologies.

---------------------------------------

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- maybe you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <-- or maybe you are here

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!


Expanded pretrib timeline:

0. church age continues

1. rapture/resurrection

2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

2c. the mid-tribulation events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
------- (Rev 16:12-16)
2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18)
2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

(2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
- 19:20-22!
3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!

 

Ed,

Your "hope" was imminent during the New Testament time period only - read Phil.4:5 ("the Lord is near"), Jn.2:18 ("it IS the last time"), I Cor.7:29 ("the time is short"), Heb.10:37 ("in a little while he that shall come will come and not delay"), Rev.22:7,10,20 ("I come quickly"), on and on and on.... You can't say the Bible taught imminency in the first century and then say it's still imminent today. THINK ABOUT THAT!

Warren

 

Ed,

Your "hope" is misplaced.

The good news is that we have completed salvation today due to the day of the Lord happening in 70A.D.

Jesus never taught that he and the angels would stage a massive takeover of planet earth. So why hold out for that scenaro! 70 A.D. was perfectly consistent with past precedents for the day of the Lord in which God sentb destroying armies to desolate a nation.

The kingdom of God is not of this world, according to Jesus himself. Therefore, you will not ever see your preconcieved views pan out. Jesus will not return to sit on a big chair in hot, dusty Jerusalem! He is on the throne now and forever in heaven!

Warren