Preterism and "This Generation"

There is an excellent book "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry. It deals with all the internal and external evidence for both an early and late date view. It is highly footnoted with the early church fathers and documents.

The same as mountains, valleys. hills, sun. moon, stars.

Now you take a stand. Why must this same language that is figurative in nature be taken literally in the NT?

Where did i do any of these?

Show me a double standard.

Sorry, I just assumed you would answer the question. Truthfully.

 

Like I said; I accept the figurative meaning of mountains. But the problem of preterism is the grossly incomplete fulfillment of even the figurative view. This violates both the action and scope of the propecy. It glosses over and overestimates actual Church history. After persecution of the powerless small early Church ended, the Church, with its new found power, followed right behind Jerusalem in becoming corrupt and even pagan, and with less excuse. (and thus, the "true kingdom" remained relatively small, powerless and persecuted; now by the big visible "church"!)While Christianity conquered paganism, paganism infiltrated Christianity, and basically redistributed the same level of heathen superstition to the world, only wrapped in Biblical vestment. This wasn't the true "Christ" the nations "yielded" to; but rather the old Roman "pontifex Maximus" in religious clothes, (and with the second word of the title dropped!). It certainly was no longer the true Gospel being preached. Most of you guys are Reformed, and you cannot even see that this doctrine is nothing but a Catholic ploy to promote themselves as the true Church and throw suspicion off of their institution. Even today, the rest of the Church, even though having restored the basic Gospel and other truths, has not taken over the world.
This does not even match the earlier propecy cited. When the "mountains" (Kingdoms) of Canaan fell, they were completely destroyed. Not continued for centuries, and then slowly "fell" (as all nations do and have always done anyway), and then actually continue beyond even that, disguised as God's "Kingdom".

From what I'ver seen so far, the main "proofs" are the supposed "references" to the Temple in Rev. 11 and some of that fathers. But this assumes they were describing the old Temple; and as a present reality. It could be either a future rebuilt temple; or even the spiritual temple, since references to "Jerusalem" often transfer in the prophecies from the old to the new.

You have to be careful with that word "after". I once got hung up in this in trying to disprove the basis for Sunday worship. Biblical counting is often inclusive and not completely literal. Christ promised He would rise "AFTER three days" (Matt.27:63), and He met the disciples again "AFTER eight days" (John 20:26). Yet it was really one and a half and seven days, respectively; in both cases leading to the following Sunday.

While the idea of Christ being this "prince" looks convincing; remember that there is a leader with armies who fight against Christ as well (not just against Jerusalem). Look at the parallel prophecies of hom in ch.8:23-25, as well the entire ch.11. How can his armies, who are also described as fighting against Christ Himself, also be "Christ's armies" or "people" at the same time?! And note the end of this king. He is directly defeated by Christ at the end of the conflict; not dying by other causes like those in AD70, after it is all over; or even Nero before the conflict; while the kingdom would continue once again, for centuries and slowly fall and morph into something else. Clearly, these were rough typical fulfillments. They are not even complete fulfillments.

 

Ed,

I noticed that you have said nothing in refutation of the exposition I gave you on Daniel 9:27. I trust that is because you see that I am correct. The New Testament is CLEAR as to who "confirmed the covenant" - Rom.15:8 and Gal.3:17 spell it out very directly.

The thing is, Ed, dispensationalism is dead in the water without their funny view of Daniel 9:27. Dispensationalism is built on a "7-year peace treaty", "rebuilt temple", and "church age parenthesis", all of which they extrapolate from Daniel 9:27. Without those teachings there IS no dispensationalism. Schofield was dead wrong.

Eric, you need to understand that it is your understanding of the details of prophecy that needs adjusting, not the clear time statements. John the Revelator was told TWICE that the prophecies of Revelation would 'shortly come to pass" (1:1; 22:6), and TWICE that the time of their fulfillment was "near" (1:3; 22:10), not far. In addition, Jesus said THREE TIMES that he would come "quickly" (22:7,10,20). God was emphasizing to John in a big way that the prophecies would be fulfilled within the scope of his lifetime, which matches precisely what Jesus said about "this generation" seeing the fulfillment of "all things". It's very clear. This is basic stuff. The problem is, people are prideful, so they reach for straws, and strain, twist and redefine the key terms to justify an inconsistent, preconcieved view.

The time statements meant exactly what they were meant to say at the time they were written. 2000 years is far outside the parameters of all the above time statements from Revelation and also the Lord's "this generation" proclamation. Surely you can see this. Atheists have a field day with your sloppy approach to the time statements and wrong definition of "this generation". They know what Jesus meant!

Warren

 

Warren: "I noticed that you have said nothing in refutation of the exposition I gave you on Daniel 9:27."

I notiice that you also did not notice that i'm two
weeks behind in this converstaion.
Nevertheless, here is my pre=written exposition:

-----------------------------------

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

Warren: "And nothing whatsoever in the text itself
suggests a "church age parenthesis" between
the 69th and 70th weeks."

Tee hee Yet Preterists insist on an unnamed
parenthesis of 37 years. Isn't that like
(metaphor coming!) the kettle claiming the pot
to be black?


----------------------------
You misquoted me.
You misunderstood me.
You misrepresened me.
-----------------------------
Grasshopper: "Where did i do any of these?"

Sorry, i was going to edit to clarify. I found
a problem that the editor just picks up part of my
post to edit and not all of it. So i'll put it all here:


As said by Ed:
-------------------------------------------------
Grasshopper: "So Ed I ask you where do you
put these things in our future? "

DOuble fulfillment
----------------------------------


As quoted by Grasshopper:
-------------------------------------------------
Grasshopper: "So Ed I ask you where do you
put these things in our future? "

DOuble fulfillment
----------------------------------


As can be seen, the semicolon-end-parens is missing,
the part that makes a smily face.
Because of the omitted smilie face, I said:
"You misquoted me.
You misunderstood me.
You misrepresened me."
The correct quote has a smiley face in it;
the misquote has no smiley face in it.
YOu misunderstood that i was less than serious
by the way you got on my case.
By misquoting and misunderstanding me, you
misrepresent me. All the offences were in one
incident -- One incident, three distinct offences.

Grasshopper: "Show me a double standard."

C. H. Spurgeon (1834- 1892):
"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than
anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since."

This statement is in error Brother Spurgeon.
It was untrue when you wrote it and even worse
terrors have happened since you died in 1892.
The killing of 6-13 Million Jews in the death ovens
of Nazi Germany. Sorry the death of 6 Million Jews
in the 1940 is WORSE than the death of 1 Million
Jews in 70AD.

Double standard: you get to quote old liars; nobody else is

Grasshopper: "Please Ed. You were taught the pre-trib rapture belief."

My testimony is that i was taught the pretrib rapture doctrine
by the Holy Spirit. Please don't dispute my personal testimony
without calling me a liar.
Double standard: you get to call people liars; doesn't work the
other way around

Ed: ----------------------
Obviously i guessed
-------------------------

Grasshopper: "Obviously. Most of what is in your
posts seem to be guesses."

In honesty i admit what you will not admit.
I'm called on the carpet for it?
Double standard: you get to deceive about guessing, others do not.

Ed -----------------------------------------
The following is an original writing of Ed
-----------------------------------------------
I think I'll just stick with Spurgeon, Gill, Owen, Calvin............

Double standard: You get to use humor, nobody else is.

Grasshopper: "So no matter what example I give of this
type of language reffering to a past event, you will
just claim dual-fulfillment. I don't think I'll waste my time."

Sorry, this statement smacks so much of gnostic elitism
that it is hard to state it as a double standard.
But i'll try: Double standard: you get to be elitist
but nobody else does.

One other thing which i can't quite state as a double standard
yet i have a bone to pick with Grass about:
He is totally cluless about when i'm doing humor or when
i'm serious or when i'm both. Several times i've done a
non-black/non-white statement to test folks here and
Grass flunked them all. Come on, the world is not all black
and white, there are various shades of grey (not to mention
a whole world of colors). Reminds me of 20+ years ago when
local polititions would say: "if them commies are agin' it
then i'm fer'it". Interesting, the commies are against
VD (veneral disease, former name for STD=sexually transmited
disease). Yep, i've even given a few gray areas and
Grass jumped right in the middle of it like a bulldog
on a meat wrapper. Never knew he had been had.


I could go on. BUt i don't want to talk about Ed in this
topic nor talk about Grasshopper. I want to try to figure out
what possible daily good, what daily action directing
philosophy can come from the belief called "Preterism".

 

1. As has been explained to you several times, its not about numbers. Its about what happened to Old Covenant Israel.

2. Having a different point of view concerning interpretation of scripture does not make one a liar.

1. I recieved my Preterist views from the Holy Spirits direction.

2. No one stops you from calling someone a liar. After all you just called Spurgeon one because he disagrees with you.

I'm glad you admit your guessing is a major part of your interpretations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ed

 

Well, I posted those verses you asked for and guess what, you did exactly what I said you would do. So I did in fact waste my time.

Perhaps that God did in fact keep His word concerning the timing and fulfillment of His prophecies. Perhaps the church should grow the Kingdom instead of waiting for the rapture to rescue them from this world. Perhaps we should make this world a better place instead of taking the position of J Vernon Magee, "why polish the brass on a sinking ship."

 

Grasshopper: "1. I recieved my Preterist views from the Holy Spirits direction."

Works for me.
NOw do you have a theological doctrine that shows how
the Holy Spirit can tell you and I two different
things? If not, you better find one, that is what
done gone and happened.

Ed: ------------------------------------------------------------
Grasshopper: "Obviously. Most of what is in your
posts seem to be guesses."

In honesty i admit what you will not admit.
I'm called on the carpet for it?
Double standard: you get to deceive about guessing, others do not.
----------------------------------------------------------
Grasshopper: "I'm glad you admit your guessing
is a major part of your interpretations"

Thank you for proving my point.

 

Perhaps you should find that theological doctrine.

 

And thank you for proving mine.

 

ed: --------------------------------------------------------
Grasshopper: "So no matter what example I give of this
type of language reffering to a past event, you will
just claim dual-fulfillment. I don't think I'll waste my time."

Sorry, this statement smacks so much of gnostic elitism
that it is hard to state it as a double standard.
But i'll try: Double standard: you get to be elitist
but nobody else does.
------------------------------------------------------------
Grasshopper: "Well, I posted those verses you asked for and
guess what, you did exactly what I said you would
do. So I did in fact waste my time."

Thank you for proving my point.

Grasshopper: //Perhaps we should make this world
a better place instead of taking the position
of J Vernon Magee, "why polish the brass on a sinking ship."//

I await your suggestions of how we might do that.

Grasshopper: "Perhaps the church should grow
the Kingdom instead of waiting for the rapture
to rescue them from this world."

That is a snide summary of the pretribualtion position
and has no place in any reasonable discussion or debate.
BTW, I deny that the pretribulation doctrine was made
to cover the tails of frightful people.
It comes direct from the Holy Bible without the
intervention of any number of misquoted former pastors.

The pretribulation rapture/resurrection,
premillinnilal return of Christ, futurist
position is that God completes our salvation, puts
the final period at the end of it, at the
pretribualtion raputre/resurrection.
In Preterism our salvation is never complete?
(not that gnostic preterists will ever admit or
deny this).

 

And thank you for proving mine. </font>[/QUOTE]Anytime.

In fact, double fullfillment - any two times

 

Perhaps you should find that theological doctrine. </font>[/QUOTE]Ed puts on his best phony superiority smurk
[sarcasm] I know it.
I can't share it with you yet.
It is way over your head.
What is a stepping stone to the enlightened
will be a stumbling block unto
the unenlightened.[/sarcasm]

 

Reasonable? This coming from someone who believes a generation is centuries in length.

1. Who have I mis-quoted?
2. At least I have former pastors that hold to my view. You have none pre-1800 who hold yours. I guess you have been given new revelation. Mormon??

Never complete? Preterism teaches it is complete. You seem to be still waiting on yours. I don't think you know preterism like you think you do.

 

Never complete? Preterism teaches it is complete. You seem to be still waiting on yours. I don't think you know preterism like you think you do. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm begging & pleading for an explanation of
preterism. All i get is tripe like:

Grasshopper: "Well, I posted those verses you asked for and
guess what, you did exactly what I said you would
do. So I did in fact waste my time."

I don't even know enough about preterism
to ask the right questions (not to mention i'm
not even reasonably sure that i'm talking
to someone who can explain the tenantes
of peterism). How do you get saved in the
peterist religion? What does "saved" mean?
What does one get saved from? What does
one get saved to?

 

Grasshopper: "1. Who have I mis-quoted?"

You quote preteristarchive.com.
Preteristarchive.com majors in misquoting
preachers. This takes what they say and changes
it into what the preterist advocates want him
to have said.

BTW, this is especially onus form of harrassment.
In under a minute you can create dozens of hours
of work for your nemesis. It does make one suppose
another one is incapable of checking out such places
for the other one's self.

 

Well this would have been nice to know about 200 messages ago. You acted as if you knew what it was.

Preterism: An eschatological viewpoint that places many or all eschatological events in the past, especially during the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. (R C Sproul, The Last Days according to Jesus, p 228)

Todd Dennis says "Preterism is from the Hebrew language's Preterit [Past Perfect] tense."
Preterism is the idea that some or all prophecy has been fulfilled in the generation alive when Jesus preached, i.e. it has been fulfilled in the past. It takes the divine inspiration of the bible seriously and literally. Some people have alleged that some of Jesus prophecies were wrong, in order to counter these arguments preterists believe that Jesus prophecies were indeed fulfilled in this (ie. His) generation, most notably by the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Preterism has nothing to do with salvation. I was once a pre-mill dispy, I have changed no view on salvation since accepting preterism. Most of our Baptist forefathers held to at least some form of preterism.

Once again you make a charge you cannot back up. Example please.

I use preterist archive alot because it is easier than searching each theologian individually. However if you wish to read each individually it doesn't take that long to do a search. All of these are NOT from the preterist archive:


John Gill
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/

http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/gills_archive.htm


Charles Spurgeon
http://www.spurgeon.org/

John Lightfoot

http://www.studylight.org/com/jlc/

http://www.studylight.org/com/jlc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024
You might find this of interest .

Milton Terry
http://www.historicist.com/related_subjects/Matt24/Milton_Terry.html

All this was compiled in less than 5 minutes.

 

ed: --------------------------------------
Preteristarchive.com majors in misquoting
preachers.
--------------------------------------------

Grasshopper: "Once again you make a charge you cannot back up. Example please."

I knew you would say this. So i made a premptive strike:

BTW, this is especially onus form of harrassment.
In under a minute you can create dozens of hours
of work for your nemesis. It does make one suppose
another one is incapable of checking out such places
for the other one's self.

I refuse to waste the limited time God has given me
on checking out a few example on that board that are
misquoted. How many quotes have you checked there?
You know how to check it.

Alright, i know the definition of preterist.
What are the implications for holy living in the 21st century?

1 Peter 3:13-14 (HCSB):

13 [/b]But based on His promise, we wait for new heavens
and a new earth, where righteousness will dwell.
14 Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for
these things, make every effort to be found in peace
without spot or blemish before Him.[/b]

Give a positive exhortation to good works using
a Preterist interpertation of this passage.

How can one wait on things in the past?
Shouldn't one wait for things in the future?

 

I'd never heard of Milton Terry before. Google shows him to
be a 19th century (1801-1900) preterist.
One might expect he would say preterist things

What sort of preterist? amill or Postmill
(I'm a futurist, i'm premill)

What sort of a preterist? pretrib, midtrib, or posttrib?
(I'm a futurist, i'm pretrib)

 

Ed,

Capitalization was done purely at the discretion of the translators. The "prince that shall come" had to have referred to a prince previously mentioned in the text ("the", not "a"). Verse 25 - "..unto Messiah the Prince"

There was only one prince in the prophecy - Messiah the Prince.

You have to be in utter denial about Rom.15:8 and Gal.3:17 - THOSE VERSES CLEARLY SHOW THAT IT WAS CRIST WHO CONFIRMED THE COVENANT.

You can claim all sorts of preconcieved spin about I Thes.4:15-17 being a pre-trib rapture that has yet to take place. Teehee, as you would say. But the FACT IS, Paul was teaching "according to the Lord's own word" (v.15). Where do we have the Lord's word on the matter? Matt.24:29-31 plainly parallels what Paul taught in I Thes.4:15-17, and the timeframe was "immediately after the tribulation of those days". What days? The whole context is speaking of the days when Jerusalem and the Temple would be desolated, which happened in 70 A.D.

Dan