Ok so I'm Reformed in my beliefs now.

Yes me too. been a christian over 20 years now and didn't really learn about either or, until just recently doing a John Macarthur study on Election. there were way too many verses in the bible that pointed to election and being CHOSEN by God which leads to his being sovereign and getting all the GLORY for everything. AMEN!

 

Hello 3John2,

I understand what you mean. Those that do not hold to Calv.....or I mean Reform beliefs have attached and repainted our doctrine so much, telling us what we believe, (as they see Calvinism) not understanding the truth of our doctrine. I too did not like the lable for years. I kept saying, "i'm not a Calvinist, I hold to the Bible." Then I would express my beliefs and was told...."Well, that is Calvinism".

Where are some shots I heard at the doctrine...I'm sure you can add more.

They are COLD.
They think man is a robot.
They do not believe John 3: 16
They do not witness
They think God will not save some, even when they want to be saved.
They do not believe the Bible when it says, "whosoever will may come"
They preach a God that is unjust.
They follow a man and not God.
They are placed in a trance, when they read Calvin.
Its of the Devil!!
Its from the pits of HELL
They are brainwashed.
One can never come up with these ideas from the Bible alone.
Programed...They are!!

The list goes on and on.

I knew that all of these claims were false, yet if I said I was a Calvinist, I would have to debate each person that had heard these false claims and thought they were true. It was much easier to just say I believe the Bible.

Now after 10-12 years I say..."I am a Calvinist"


In Christ....James

 

Could I ask a simple question. When you teach Bible school are you totally honest with the children and tell them that Jesus loves some of them but the rest He can't stand and has a special place for them where He will receive His Glory by torturing them for eternity or do you say "Jesus love me yes I know for the Bible tells me so".

 

double post

 

3John2,

I know how you feel. I once felt that way when I became a Calvinist. (Though I have since rejected Calvinism.)

However, if you are going to be a Calvinist, I would second what Brother Bob said, be honest and consistent.

Don't fall into the wishy-washy Calvinism of guys like MacArthur where they want to have their cake and eat it to. Where God "loves" the non-elect, even though they have no hope of salvation.

Do not extend a sincere, genuine offer of the gospel to all people, because, in Calvinism, there cannot be a genuine offer to all. Honest, consistent Calvinists know this.

Qualify the gospel: God might have a wonderful plan for your life, Jesus may have died for you, etc. Real, honest Calvinists (like Jay Adams for example) know that you cannot tell everyone "Jesus died for you."

I would encourage you to visit www.pristinegrace.org. Though, as I said, I no longer embrace Calvinism, this website is the one I recommend most highly for those who want to practice honest and consistent Calvinism.

 

Hi Brother Bob, it is nice to meet you..

This is a very good example of something that Calvinist must address over and over again. Those that do not hold to Calvinism do not understand what we teach in our churches. This is not simply directed to you Bob. I have heard something close to this many many times. Let me share one other statement…”Calvinist can not sing with their Children..”Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world…”

This view is taken from what they understand Calvinism to be and not what it is.

This is what they understand.

God elects some…and damns others to Hell.

This view is backed when a Calvinist points to Romans 9 and says…”you see the Bible says God hates some”. While it is true that Calvinist hold to Romans 9, this is not the full view of election but rather only part.

Statements such as what we see above are ways to show Calvinism preaches a God that is unjust. If all are not elect, then God is unjust…is the thought. At this point often many jump to John 3: 16 and say…”see you are wrong. God Loves the WHOLE world”. This is done as if Calvinist reject John 3:16. This too comes from not understand our doctrine.

Let me share some facts with you about our doctrine.

1…there are many views within Calvinism. One mold is not cased and all others come from this. The list of views are endless as to what each of us holds. If this is true, and everyone will agree it is, how can we also be brainwashed?

2..Election has nothing at all to do with God being just…and/or holy. Election is all about Gods mercy and love.

3..It is GOD that elects and it is us that goes to the ends of the earth. sharing the gospel. No Calvinist knows who is the elect, for no Calvinist is God.

4…We teach…Go so loved the world. That is the fact Jack!!!!

5…We teach no man seeks God. This is true even after the light came..John 1

6…we compel ALL men to come to Him.

7…We never tell anyone…”Sorry this message is for the elect only…so go set back down..for you are not the elect, so YOU can not be saved.

Calvinism is the Gospel.

It has been said….”All men should pray like a Calvinist and preach like a Free Willer”

I do not agree with all of that, But there is some truth to that.

So...Yes we do sing..."Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world…"

*******************

As to this statement I started with…

((God elects some…and damns others to Hell.))

This is how others THINK all Calvinist believe.

I disagree with this. Sin damns sinners to hell. This is the Just God for he hates sin. This is the Holy God for sin can not be part of Him.

Without election no one would be saved. Election is a God of love and mercy.


In Christ…James

 

3John2,

Don't let all these strawmen get in your way of seeking the truth.

 

Amen AndyT!

Don't get misled by either Arminian or pseudo-Calvinist strawmen.

Embrace true, honest and consistent Calvinism.
Check out www.pristinegrace.org!

 

BTW, I wasn't referring to Jarthur's posts - I was referring to Brother Bob and JohnB's posts as "strawmen".

 

Good Question Bro. Bob.

 

Hello Jarthur001;

First of all I am not Jack, ok.

Your explanation just will not hold water. You say God does not send anyone to Hell but their sins, but yet you say that they were pre-chosen and have no way they can repent for God will never appear to them with faith. That is trying to have it both ways and it just don't work.

You may teach it but the Bible don't

Matthew, chapter 6 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteous

Luke, chapter 12
"31": But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Isaiah, chapter 55
6": Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

"7": Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

why?

Acts, chapter 20
"27": For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

If you believe it to be Scripture then why not?

One question of my own. Are all little children the "elect"?

Andy T; You think we don't know when a calvinist speaks?

 

To say that God creates sentient beings whom he knows he will not elect to salvation, and thus he will condemn them to eternal torture makes God a monster worse than any other. That is not a God worthy of worship, but one no better than another devil.

 

No strawmen, just truth. It cant' be both ways, can it Andy? Is God double minded?

 

To say that God creates sentient beings, whom he knows will reject him and thus he will condemn them to eternal torture makes God a monster worse than any other. With this knowledge beforehand, how could God create people he knows will spend eternity in hell?

So yours is a monster too, unless you are an Open Theist.

 

No strawmen, just truth. It cant' be both ways, can it Andy? Is God double minded? </font>[/QUOTE]O.k., if you want to play this game and say that Calvinists must believe X, then don't call me a Calvinist. Call me a neo-Calvinist or call me a dimwit - I don't care. Just don't attribute things to my belief system that are not true. I don't care what label you give me, just don't lie about me.

 

No strawmen, just truth. It cant' be both ways, can it Andy? Is God double minded? </font>[/QUOTE]O.k., if you want to play this game and say that Calvinists must believe X, then don't call me a Calvinist. Call me a neo-Calvinist or call me a dimwit - I don't care. Just don't attribute things to my belief system that are not true. I don't care what label you give me, just don't lie about me. </font>[/QUOTE]Who's "lying about you"? Don't play the martyr. I simply asked if it can be both ways, and you get all defensive. Well, can it be both ways?

 

Hello Bob,

Bob...

The Bible does not...hummm? See...here we go down the old debate path. You will point at one verse and I will point at one verse. You will come back and say...no this means this...and I will pull out the greek and say...no in the greek it says this.

This is what is wrong with the debate. BOLD statements just as you made above. The fact is, and you know this Bob, I can post my own set of verses. If I must and if you want the same old debate, we can do this. But lets face it, we both have verse. Now, how do we make it work togther?

Let me address these in short form, so you do not think I am running from the truth.


Bob post....

Let me help you...

this is addressing mans will...."No ((man)) seeks after God"
This is addressing mans will..."and His own received Him not"
This is adressing mans will....."and they did not know, for they could not know"
TONS more..........


You asked why we compel ALL men to come to Him.

Because God does want all to come to Him. It is His ((will)).

Yet mans will is to live in sin. right?

you also asked...
One question of my own. Are all little children the "elect"?

I'm not God Bob..as I said before...God elects


In Christ..James

 

To say that God creates sentient beings, whom he knows will reject him and thus he will condemn them to eternal torture makes God a monster worse than any other. With this knowledge beforehand, how could God create people he knows will spend eternity in hell?

So yours is a monster too, unless you are an Open Theist. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, I am not familiar with Open Theism, as I don't like labels. However, you make a good point. I don't believe either of these could possibly express the nature of a benevolent deity. Therefore, if one accepts that God exists as an omnibenevolent being, neither of these models do him any justice. I think the mind of man may be incapable of grasping the nature of the almighty.