The Gospel Saves, if...

Here is what you said Tuor <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This is where we disagree. The very fact that I strive to trust and obey means that I am on the road to salvation. If I decide to leave that road, then I was not a part of the elect at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You must feel that you can fall from grace. I have evidence that I am of the elect but that evidence doesn't become reality until I'm in the presence of God. The election of God is as sure as the sacrifice of Christ. Gods children will always have doubts, it is a tool of Satan. I am his child... You are not his child... This endless cycle goes on and on... Satan is the accuser of the brethren and always will be as long as we are in these temples of clay. Those who say they don't have that constant warfare and serve God, deceive themselves. We all have that inner man trying to serve God and the fleshly man trying to take it away... Thats my experience for what its worth... Has your experiences been similar?... Brother Glen

 

1 JOHN 5:13- These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God............I know

 

help me out here;it appears to me that Tuor is trying to make this an issue of works from his original statement?

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Brutus ]

 

First of all I Cor.15:1-2 is not dealing with one loosing their salvation.They are but two vs.dealing with the doctrine of resurrection.Paul is telling them that what he is about to say is nothing new to them,but is simply "the gospel which I preached to you,which also you received."Not until vss.3-4 does he specify what the heart of the gospel is:"that is Christ died for our sins,...and that He was buried,and that He was raised on the third day."The point of the first two verses is that the Corinthian believers were themselves living evidence that this doctrine was true.The fact that they came out the of spiritual blindness and deadness of Judaism or paganism and into the light and life of Christ testified to the power of the gospel,and therefore to the power of the resurrection.It also testified that they had already believed in the truth of Christ's resurrection.It was the gospel of the resurrection of Jesus Christ that Paul had preached to them,that they had received,and in which he assures them they now stand and by which they are saved,delivered from sin's power and condemnation.Because of the reality of Christ's resurrection and of their trust in it,they were now a part of His church and thereby were evidece of the power of that resurrection. Paul's qualifying phrase-"if you hold fast the word that I preached to you,unless you believed in vain-"does not teach that true believers are in danger of loosing their salvation,but rather it is a warning against non-saving faith.A clearer rendering would be:"if you hold fast to what I preached to you,unless your faith is worthless or unless you believed without effect."The Corinthians holding fast to what Paul had preached(11:2)was the result of and an evidence of their genuine salvation,just as their salvation and new life were an evidence of the power of Christ's resurrection.However,it must be recognized that some lacked the true saving faith,and did not continue to obey the Word of God.

 

Thanks for the input.

Questions:
1. How can one's certainty that he is saved, if such certainty is fallible, give one the assurance that he is saved?
2. If one's certainty is fallible, would not the assurance itself be fallible and place one's salvation, however slight, in doubt?

 

tuor;how about some scripture to back-up your last post on Sat.?

 

There is definitely a struggle between 'the flesh' and the 'Spirit.' To my way of thinking this is an indication that I am close to what God wants from me at this time. If I were among the non-elect I would not have the mind of Christ [I Cor. 2:16c], and there would be no struggle to live pleasing to God.

I am not Catholic but this will get the idea across. I find myself falling into the same venial sins that were troubling me when I was a young Christian at age twelve. I have prayed for victory but to my disappointment, slip into the same weakness at times.

Ray

 

Nelson,
I guess I feel I answered those questions in my Feb 20 (6:44) post. Scripture presents the exact tension you seem to be wrestling with in your questions. I feel the statement that these things are written that you might KNOW that you have eternal life is pretty clear. I also feel that the admonition to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, and the instruction to make your calling and election sure are also clear.

So, I understand your questions, but I believe that though they are logical, they are not Scriptural. I know I'm saved because John tells me that I can KNOW if my life lines up with what he presents as proof of salvation. However, if I ever stop lining up with those proofs, I have no Scriptural reason to think I'm saved, and as Scripture is the only certain basis of assurance, I would then have no assurance. However, I guess that is not my concern. I am following Paul's advice to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling, so that I might always be able to see proof of my salvation. My constant prayer is that the same God who began a good work in me would also perform it. And God will be faithful to answer that prayer.

Anyway, there's the Scriptural tension. Assurance is possible, but perseverance is required. If you feel I've misinterpreted any of the verses, I will be happy to discuss them. Otherwise, I'm content to let the Scriptural tension between assurance and perseverance stand.

 

We're going in circles (and have been) in this thread for sometime. Let's start wrapping things up. I will be closing this soon.

 

I appreciate your input.

What is sought is not absolute reconciliation, for there may be further questions that need to be answered, but a more Biblical view that coherently answers most questions regarding the subject in question.

Unfortunately, Larry, since it seems he has not understood my objection, has not answered directly to it. The comment above also has no bearing on my objection.

But certainty of faith, as Larry stated, is fallible, which raises the possibility that one may be erred in the certainty that he is of the elect. If "security is based on present belief" and that belief is fallible, then there is no security.

“Evidences” and “fruits of the Spirit” are irrelevant to the main objection being, how can a “fallible certainty” confirm one’s status as the elect? How can “certainty” be fallible?

The logical problem in Larry’s assertion:

1. I am certain that I am of the elect.
2. My certainty is fallible.
3. Therefore, it is not certain that I am of the elect.

In any case, point (2) is illogical. Please note that in the dictionary the word “certainty” means and is interchangeable with “infallible.” Therefore, what one can say Larry is asserting is that, “I am certain that I am of the elect but my certainty is uncertain,” which is obviously a contradiction; it makes no sense.

Larry, it is logical to conclude, seems to say that no one can be certain of their certainty that they are the elect. If true, obviuously, there is no such thing as assurance of salvation. With respect to one’s standing before God, one is either certain or he is not; one cannot be certain and uncertain, infallible and fallible at the same time according to common sense and Scripture.

The “flip side” proposed is irrelevant since it does not directly address the issue.

If one is the elect and such status is permanent, there is no need to make one’s “calling and election sure.”

Note the questions one may raise if such were the issue:

1. To what depth of quality must one walk in the Spirit to be assured that he is the elect?
2. How many of what virtues and to what depth need those virtues be demonstrated in order for one to be certain of his calling and election?
3. How fruitful must one be to be assured of his election?
4. Because one is subjectively convinced that they are the elect, does that necessarily mean that they are the elect in reality?
5. If man is “deceitful above all else,” how can his own purely subjective evaluation of the fruits necessary to give evidence of his salvation be legitimate?

If true, then how can one be certain they will hold on to Christ in the future?

If, as the elect, they are assured of holding on to the end, what reason is there to “make their calling and election sure”? "Sure" for whom? Not oneself if one is certain they are counted among the elect.

But if one is certain that they are the elect and, as such, assured their salvation is never lost, would not such a “working it out” be redundant and superfluous?

What is proposed is most confusing and contradictory; it challenges the legitimacy of common sense in assessing the meaning of scripture and experience. If one knows they are saved, there is no need to strive to know. If one needs to strive to know it is because of uncertainty.

Therefore, if one must strive to know, it is because his own election may not be as real as he believes it to be. Regardless whether or not one is elect or not, the fact that one is not certain of it and must strive to secure it’s validity, is indicative of the fact that anyone’s certainty of election is, for all intents and purposes, not assured; that is, one may not be sure he is the elect and, nevertheless, may be the elect in reality and one may not be the elect in reality but think that he is.

What a dilemma!

However, if salvation is for the elect only, predetermined in eternity past, and one cannot be absolutely certain that he is of the elect (though the “fruits” rendered would grant one a certain degree of possibility depending upon the depth, extent, and variety of “fruit” necessary), then no assurance of salvation is possible regardless of any other considerations whatsoever.

Again, the question arises, how much fruit and to what depth is necessary to have “persevered to the end” to prove one is the elect?

Also, one can know only at "the end" that he is the elect.

It has been stated that these posts are going in circles. I agree because the main problem regarding the assertion made is not being addressed, i.e. the assertion that one may be certain of salvation with the possibility that such certainty is, at the same time, uncertain.

[ February 26, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

Just one question: For what reason is perseverance necessary by one who is assured they are the elect?

 

Note!

Around 11 pm tonight, this thread will be closed. Let's wrap things up. No new info is being presented and this has gone on long enough.

[ February 26, 2002, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

tuor; ok,so you gave us some scripture.In 1Jn.2:18-19 John is speaking of apostates,those who falsely claimed to be of the faith but were not.As for Lk.3:18,you gave the wrong ref.for the vs. you quoted.3:18 says"and many other things in his exortation preached he unto the people."speaking of John the Baptist.IPeter 1:1-11 finds Peter giving us great Christian virtues here and says nothing to indicate that one can loose their salvation,if you find that in those passages then you are able to discern things that no one else can.

 

Game, set, & match.