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Before Abraham was, I am....

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by jcf, Feb 22, 2005.

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  1. jcf

    jcf Guest

    Before we go into this subject I suggest you read my post on preexistence. When you do you will better understand what Jesus meant when He said, "Before Abraham was, I am."

    Jesus was in the mind of YAHWEH before the foundation of the world in the same way you and I are and all that we see in creation.

    Jesus is the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world, in YAHWEH's mind according to His eternal plan. Jesus was literally slain 2000 years ago.

    When Abraham was made the promise of his seed (Jesus) being blessed, Abraham believed YAHWEH and saw that day of the coming Messiah, the Christ, Abraham's seed.

    Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Abraham saw this coming day and rejoiced.

    John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my (Jesus') day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    The Jews proudly esteemed Abraham as being their father.

    John 8:31-33 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

    Jesus, the coming seed of Abraham was planned way before Abraham this is why Jesus told the Jews, "Before Abraham was, I am."

    I AM, is not YAHWEH's true name for ever and He clears this up for us in the same verses where He says, "Tell the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Issac and the God of Jacob has sent you. This is YAHWEH's name forever, not I AM. So why do we say that every time Jesus and only Jesus says, I am, He is referring Himself to be YAHWEH. It's a denominational, theological mindset that's all.

    Exodus 3:14-15 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
     
    #1 jcf, Feb 22, 2005
  2. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Ah...more hermeneutical gymnastics.

    Fact: In John 8:58 Jesus said: "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." He didn't say: "Before Abraham was, I preexisted in the mind of God". Once again you've mutilated the plain meaning of the text to suit your purposes.

    If He did say that you might have a point. However, once you try to bring preexistence into the equation you defeat your own argument since EVERYTHING "preexists" in the mind of God. Since this is so, and since God is Eternal and outside of time it makes no chronological sense to say one thing (or person) preexisted in the mind God before another thing so preexisted. Rather God knows all at once.

    Rather the plain meaning was: before Abraham was(in time, obviously), I AM (eternal).

    BTW--did you know that "Yahweh" and the Hebrew word for "I AM" share the same root? Therefore you are really grasping at straws to suggest these are two different names for God. For the Jews that picked up stones to throw at Christ (John 8:59), the meaning was obvious.
     
    #2 Doubting Thomas, Feb 22, 2005
  3. Logan

    Logan New Member

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    jcf:

    The Jews understood clearly that Jesus was referring to Himself as God. Thats why in verse 59 they tried to stone Him. The punishment for blasphame. "At this, they picked up stones to stone Him, but Jesus hid Himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

    Your logic does not hold up. If they misunderstood Jesus He surely would not have left them prior to explaining the meaning He intended. The fact is that He did state exactly what He meant to, as He always did and always will do. Your faced with a dilemma my friend, either Jesus was a poor teacher and erred here, a mad man, or was God in the Flesh. I choice to believe He was who He said He was...God. That is the belief of 2000 years of Christianity and no amount of verbal gymnastics will be able to change this all important Truth.

    Peace...
     
    #3 Logan, Feb 22, 2005
  4. jcf

    jcf Guest

    Hi DT,

    Jesus knew exactly what He was saying because He read the Old Testament Scriptures and all the prophecies regarding Himself. Jesus was the seed of the woman in Genesis.

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Jesus is the prophet like Moses from among his brethren.

    Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    So yes, Jesus was before Abraham but only in the plan of YAHWEH.

    1 Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

    We too are in YAHWEH's plan but we're not co-eternal.

    Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Jesus before the foundation of the world...

    Before Jeremiah was born YAHWEH knew him and sanctified him.

    Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you...

    There is no hermeneutical gymnastics here just Scripture interpreting Scripture according YAHWEH's eternal plan.

    As far as I AM and YAHWEH being of the same root, this is true because they are referring to the same person in that context. But we run into a problem when we connect this I AM with the I am of Jesus or any other I am of the bible. The I am of Jesus is just, I am, and not equating with the I AM of YAHWEH. They are two different words from the I AM of Exodus to the I am of Jesus. Look them up...

    Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets (NOT JESUS). Has in these last days spoken to us by His Son (HERE IS JESUS IN THE LAST DAYS) ....
     
    #4 jcf, Feb 22, 2005
  5. jcf

    jcf Guest

    Hi Logan,

    The Jews had no clue, they missed the Messiah. They were looking for a king to rule and destroy their enemy. If you read these verses where the Jews tried to equate Jesus as being YAHWEH, Jesus corrected them.

    John 10:33-36 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    The book of John is one book where we find Trinitarians trying to make Jesus YAHWEH. I have even been told to tell new believers to read the book of John because it teaches us that Jesus is YAHWEH. Is this why the book of John was written?

    Lets go to the book to find out.

    John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    How plain and how clear...

    Jesus is the Christ, the anointed one, the Messiah, the Son of the living God. All these titles were given to Jesus through YAHWEH's eternal plan before the foundation of the world in that YAHWEH would bringforth a Son who would be heir of His coming kingdom, the kingdom of God.
     
    #5 jcf, Feb 22, 2005
  6. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    True. In His humanity Christ was (and is) the seed of the woman.

    True. Again this is describing Christ in His Incarnation.

    True, but He was not only a prophet.

    So, no, that's not what John 8:58 is saying. You haven't answered my argument at all.

    True, but this does not prove Christ was not of the same essence of the Father, nor does it answer
    my point regarding John 8:58.

    But Christ is co-eternal with the Father in His Divinity. He was born in time in His humanity, which is completely consistent with what Paul was saying in Phil 2:5-10 and with what John was saying in John 1:1-18 (esp v.1 and v.14).

    True

    True

    True, but this does nothing to negate the fact that Christ in His being was the Eternal I AM before Abraham existed in time. You're still way off base on your interpretation of John 8:58.

    Or in your case, "mis-interpreting" Scripture according to your plan.

    No it's clear from the context of the passage that Christ was equating Himself with the I AM (Yahweh) of the OT, and the Jews rightly understood Him to be claiming thus. You have failed to prove otherwise, particularly with your eigesis of that passage. Merely asserting otherwise doesn' make your case.
     
    #6 Doubting Thomas, Feb 22, 2005
  7. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    Hmmm...denying the eternity of Jesus Christ. Now, all of a sudden, I begin to understand your reasoning in the other thread.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
    #7 Trotter, Feb 22, 2005
  8. KeeperOfMyHome

    KeeperOfMyHome New Member

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    jcf said
    jcf, have you ever read Colossians 1:12-17? Verses 12-15 speak of God's Son, who has redeemed us and forgiven by His blood. But of significant importance are verses 16 & 17. They tell us that Christ was before all things, and that all things were created by Him and for Him. If He was 'only in the mind of God' as you have suggested, how could He have possibly been the creator of all and before all things?

    Julia


    12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
     
    #8 KeeperOfMyHome, Feb 22, 2005
  9. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    JCF

    Are you denying the Diety of Christ?
    ... And
    Playing with games with the Word?

    In the Name ...
     
    #9 El_Guero, Feb 22, 2005
  10. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    What group are you identifying with?
     
    #10 El_Guero, Feb 23, 2005
  11. jcf

    jcf Guest

    I am of the group that believes Jesus is the Christ.

    1Jo 5:1 WHOEVER believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
     
    #11 jcf, Feb 23, 2005
  12. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    I am of the group that believes Jesus is the Christ.
    </font>[/QUOTE]But since you deny that Christ is of one essence with the Father and therefore co-eternal with the Father, your group believes in a false Jesus. (You acknowledge the Son only in His schema in time, and not in His morphe from eternity.)

    Face it your "group" lost in AD 381 (and before that your group's leader lost in 325.) :cool:
     
    #12 Doubting Thomas, Feb 23, 2005
  13. Geaney

    Geaney Guest

    JCF is completely correct in his understanding of the blessed words of Yeshuwa' HaMeshiyach (Yeshua the Messiah) as recorded in John 8:58 "...before Abraham was, I am He".

    Yeshuwa' simply declared to the UNBELIEVING JEWS "I am He (Gk: ego eimi)...The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (John 8:58. Revelation 13:8); "I am He the Word made flesh, The Lamb of Elohiym who, in the purpose of Elohiym, was declared slain from the foundation of the world" (Exodus 46:10. John 1:14,29. 8:58) and Who was promised to Abraham in Genesis 22:8,14.

    The Divinely "declared purpose...The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" was not "accomplished" (Isaiah 46:10) until Yeshuwa' HaMeshiyach (Yeshua the Messiah) was "slain on the tree" (Matthew 27:42) outside Yerusalem.

    "The foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8) was "before Abraham was" (John 8:58).

    Scripture declares that there is "no one like The Only True Elohiym The Father...declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things which are not yet done" (Isaiah 46:10).

    "From the beginning...and from ancient times...before Abraham was" (Isaiah 46:10. John 8:58), YeHVaH Elohiym The Father Who is The Only True Elohiym was "declaring the end" (Isaiah 46:10) concerning His, then future, Messiah such as "I will be His Father and He shall be My only begotten Son" (Genesis 22. 1 Chronicles 17:13. Psalm 2:7. John 3:16) and which He "brought to pass" (Isaiah 46:11) in the womb of the virgin Miriam (Matthew 1:18, 20).

    [IMPORTANT NOTE: The Greek 'ego eimi' translates as "I am he" in every instance where it is used in holy Scripture see John 4:26, 9:9 etc.

    Also, the trinitarian word 'I AM', was NEVER written in holy scripture as The blessed Name of The Most High. In the furtherance of their heresy, trinitarian translators CHANGED the words of Exodus 3:14: "I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE" (Hebrew: EHEYEH ASHER EHEYEH) to instead read the LIE: "I am that I am" (KJV); "I am who I am" (NASB); "I am who am" (RC DOUAY) etc.

    In Exodus Chapter 6 we read where The Most High revealed His NAME to Moshe: "I am YeHVaH" (Exodus 6:2,6,7,8,29]. We see that the words "I am" do NOT form part of The Blessed Name of The Most High: "YeHVaH" (Exodus 6:2).

    Patrick Geaney
    Unworthy servant and disciple of "Adoni Yeshuwa' HaMeshiyach" (Psalm 110:1)
     
    #13 Geaney, Mar 31, 2005
  14. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Here we go again....Arians of the world, unite!!! [​IMG]
     
    #14 Doubting Thomas, Mar 31, 2005
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    These are good points. Certainly the Jews would not be throwing stones at Christ because He claims that "Before God thought of Abraham God thought of Me".

    Certainly His use of the "I AM" title that God used with Moses at the burning bush - proves that He was in fact claiming to be the great I AM of the OT even BEFORE "ABRAHAM WAS".

    The contrast between "Abrham WAS" and "I AM" is the very contrast you would expect with the eternal-self-existant-God of Genesis speaking to Abraham who "was" but IS not.

    Christ is the eternal "I AM" -- and if you look for that in the OT - it is applied to God "alone"!!

    It is EASY to see how the Jews would take this CLAIM as immediate justification for stoning!

    But ONLY if it is a claim to the Godhead!

    The re-invention of this as "claiming that God thought of me before He thought of Abraham" is face-saving at best but is not good compelling exegesis.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Mar 31, 2005
  16. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Actually if anybody bothered to read the LXX they would see that YHWH is not translated as ego eimi it is translated as ha own. In the John text it is not so much words ego eimi that Christ is saying that leads people to accuse Jesus of calling himself God but it is the claims that He is making in total.
     
    #16 Chemnitz, Mar 31, 2005
  17. Geaney

    Geaney Guest

    QUOTE: BOB RYAN
    __________________________________________________
    the "I AM" title that God used with Moses at the burning bush - proves that He was in fact claiming to be the great I AM of the OT even BEFORE "ABRAHAM WAS".
    __________________________________________________

    BOB RYAN is in grave error in his writing that "I AM" was "the title that God used with Moses at the burning bush".

    As I already clearly pointed out in my posting above, the blessed Title which "YeHVaH Elohiym" (Exodus 9:30) gave to Moshe was NOT "I AM" but "I WILL BE (Hebrew: EHEYEH)".

    That the CORRECT TRANSLATION of the blessed Word "EHEYEH" is "I WILL BE" is CONFIRMED by ALL Trinitarian translators when they translate THE VERY SAME HEBREW WORD; "EHEYEH" in Exodus 3:12 as "I WILL BE" (Exodus 3:12).

    Perhaps BOB RYAN, DOUBTING THOMAS, BAPTIST PASTORS and the Webmaster of this web site can explain why trinitarian translators CORRECTLY translate the blessed Hebrew Word "EHEYEH as "I WILL BE" in Exodus 3:12 and DELIBERATELY CORRUPT the meaning of the same blessed Hebrew Word; "EHEYEH"; by "MAKING THE LIE" (Rev 21:27); 'I AM', TWO VERSES LATER, in Exodus 3:14.???

    Lest anyone think that I am misquoting trinitarian translations I am now setting out here current translations of the KJV and NASB versions of verses Exodus 3:12 and Exodus 3:14 so that the DELIBERATE trinitarian corruptions of the blessed Hebrew word "EHEYEH" in Exodus 3:14 is plain for all to see.

    KJV Translations:

    "And he said, Certainly I will be (Hebrew: EHEYEH) with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain" (Exodus 3:12 KJV).

    "And God said unto Moses, I AM (Hebrew: EHEYEH) THAT I AM (Hebrew: EHEYEH): and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM (Hebrew: EHEYEH) hath sent me unto you" (Exodus 3:14 KJV).

    NASB Translations:

    "And He said, "Certainly I will be (Hebrew: EHEYEH) with you, and this shall be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall worship God at this mountain." (Exodus 3:12 NASB version}

    "God said to Moses, "I AM (Hebrew: EHEYEH WHO I AM (Hebrew: EHEYEH)"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM (Hebrew: EHEYEH) has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14 NASB version).

    The trinitarian corruption, in Exodus 3:14 of the blessed Hebrew Word "EHEYEH" has "DECEIVED" (Matthew 24:5) MILLIONS as warned by Yeshuwa' HaMeshiyach (Yeshua the Messiah), the only begotten Son of the living and The Only True Elohiym, YeHVaH Elohiym The Father" (Matthew 16:16. Yochanon 20:31).

    Hosannah in The Highest. Blessed is He who comes in the Name of YeHVaH; blessed is The King of Yisrael; blessed is The Son of YeHVaH. Hosannah in The Highest. Amane

    Patrick Geaney
    Unworthy servant and disciple of "Adoni Yeshuwa' HaMeshiyach" (Psalm 110:1)
     
    #17 Geaney, Apr 1, 2005
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well - first of all lets actually "look" at someone with a background in OT languages giving a review of Exodus 3

    Given that the Septuagint has Hebrew scholars making it "I AM" and the Greek NT ALSO has Christ claiming the SAME -- for Himself -- the point is clear.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Apr 1, 2005
  19. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    "When Abraham was made the promise of his seed (Jesus) being blessed, Abraham believed YAHWEH and saw that day of the coming Messiah, the Christ, Abraham's seed."

    There is no such name as "YAHWEH." It is an invented word to take the place of the unknown name which is why when Jews come upon YHWH in the text it is pronounced, "The Lord."
     
    #19 billwald, Apr 1, 2005
  20. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Bob,

    I would rather be in Grave error with the Jesus that rose from the Grave ... than with someone that disagrees with Jesus ...

    Just MHO

    Wayne
     
    #20 El_Guero, Apr 1, 2005
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