Will the Lake of Fire Ever Go Out?

You haven't stumped anyone. You fail to answer people's questions, and tend to go off on your own rabbit trails. You still fail to answer, in spite of your mixed uo theology, how these that you have mentioned will escape being "tormented day and night forever and forever in the lake of fire" (Rev.20:10).
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]My post is in response to your post:

posted February 01, 2003 12:30 AM

I have answered your questions, with scripture that you call 'not the words of God'.

Just because you don't respect the Bible doesn't mean that I didn't answer your questions.

 

So let's see, it is figurative when it supports your theology and not when it doesn't. Ah, I see! The double standard is so clear now!

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]No, the figurative label is applied where the Bible is being figurative. Since 'worms' cannot live through fire, we must come to the conclusion that either it was translated wrong, or it is figurative.

And you failed to answer the question. Are the worms 'immortal' worms?</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with Neal, they are figurative. That answers your question, if you pay attention. BTW, so does John Wesley agree with us:

"Where their worm - That gnaweth the soul, (pride, self will, desire, malice, envy, shame, sorrow, despair,) dieth not - No more than the soul itself: and the fire (either material, or infinitely worse!) that tormenteth the body, is not quenched for ever. Isa 66:24."

The worm is not an actual worm but figurative, denoting the soul. It is the soul that will never die in Hell. The fire will never be quenched. The soul will be tormented forever.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]UH, that was ME who said they were figurative.

 

NOW the worms are being tormented?

This just keeps getting better and better!

 

What of the verb form in 2 Peter 2:9 that I told you about? Do you just ignore it? See bottom of page 7.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Do you actually think I would ignore you on purpose? I'll go check......

 

Did you ever think of it being a present passive middle participle? That means the action is presently being done to the ones it is referring to. Therfore you get "being punished". Presently occuring to the the ones being held. You really should look at what the verb form really is.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Well, considering that BEING would be the participle, and BEING is not in the text, it really doesn't matter if BEING is a participle. The word in question is 'punished' (kolazo) and in the light of the rest of the statement 'reserved', we automatically know the state of 'kolazo', is future tense.

Here is a comparison of the word 'reserved' (tereo):
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
(BTW, both of the words 'judgment' are the same as well.)
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment {to be punished:}

The word 'kolazo' is only in the Bible in ONE other place. It was translated there a little differntly that 'under punishment' or 'being punished', let's look:
Act 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

Notice it is in FUTURE tense. The complete verb being 'might punish' indicates a future punishment. This verse is not referring to judgment, but it is the only other use of the word 'kolazo'.

Let's see what Job thought of this topic:

Job 21:27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.
Job 21:28 For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?
Job 21:29 Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Job 21:31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Job 21:33 The clods of the valley shall be sweet unto him, and every man shall draw after him, as there are innumerable before him.
Job 21:34 How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?

Job had a good grasp on the Truth of Scripture. He was being attacked by people who saw his state. This man he is arguing with had just made the statement speaking of the wicked:
Job 20:26 All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle.

Job rebuked him, rather harshly, because he could see that this man was being manipulative and deceptive by mixing error with truth. Job 'knew his thoughts'. This man was trying to attest to the 'dead' being tormented.
Job set him straight.

Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

The wicked IS reserved TO the day of judgment, and SHALL BE brought forth to the DAY of wrath.

There is no way that living in torment RIGHT now in a disembodied state, could NOT be a reception of the reward. If you believe that the reward is torment in hell, then saying these people are already there RIGHT NOW, is saying that they have already received their reward. Since the judgment HAS NOT taken place, that would make it impossible.

God Bless

 

And as you have shown, it doesn't do one iota of good if the person you are posting them for has no respect for the Bible.

This verse has never been used to show soul sleep.
Forever does not mean 'through the ceasless ages of eternity'. I have already shown that IN THE BIBLE when the word 'forever' is used, it is referring to the end of something. Samuel, Jonah, the slave, the STATUTES of the Levitical sacrificial laws. ALL of those people died. Jonah was not IN the belly of the fish 'for all eternity', the slave is not serving his master now, and Samuel is not in the Temple in Jerusalem serving God right now.
There ARE applications of the words 'for ever and ever' that DO mean 'for all eternity' and they apply to God, and the redeemed Saints. NEVER are they applied to MORTAL wicked people, who WILL NOT receive immortal bodies.

SO then you admit that 2 words can have the same meaning, and also at the same time have a different meaning? Kind of like 'for ever'?

SO then if Lazarus was dead, and Jesus raised him, why don't we have a 'I went to Heaven and Jesus made me come back' testimony by Lazarus? Don't you think that would have been a prime opportunity to MAKE CLEAR this doctrine? Interestinly enough NONE of the people that were resurrected by Jesus or the Apostles ever spoke of there being ANYTHING while they were 'dead' (asleep).

Kind of like 'for ever and ever'?

Actually it is normally called understanding. The Bible doesn't support the doctrine of eternal torment. As a whole, the Bible teaches that the dead are unconscious, without thought, and silent, as they sleep awaiting the resurrection. The Bible further teaches that ONLY the righteous inherit eternal life, and the wicked do not receive immortality. That is a gift that ONLY the saved get. The choices are not 'eternal life in heaven' or 'eternal life in hell'. The choices are 'eternal life' or 'death'.

The nature of that death IS eternal. The duration is not. Death is not something that can have a duration. It is a thing that happens, and once it does it is a state. Death passes upon all men. That means they die, not 'their body dies but the 'spirit' goes to heaven or hell'. The SOUL that sins will die. I have already shown IN DEPTH that a soul ceases to be a soul when it dies. Dust with breath is a living soul. There is no mention there AT creation of God putting a 'spirit' or 'ghost' in that SOUL.

God Bless.

 

I'm sorry did you want to QUOTE me saying that or did you just want to misrepresent me again?

Pretty sure I just USED the word NEVER to say that the WICKED will NEVER receive immortality.
NEVER means NEVER. Not ever. Won't happen. As opposed to WILL happen.

Actually it is blatant misrepresentation. You like doing that don't you? Let me give you some advice: COPY AND PASTE.
Tormented does mean tormented. Day and night, means DAY and NIGHT, and for ever means for ever. ALL of these must be viewed in the light of WHO they are talking about. The wicked WILL be tormented, until they die. There will be people going into the fire, day and night, until the judgment is over. (there are quite a few people who will be going through the judgment) They will burn forever, which is until they die.
On the flip side, which I have already pointed out and you conveniently ignored, there ARE times in the Bible where for ever means eternity. When referring to GOD who immortal, omnipotent, all knowing and to the Saints who are redeemed from the earth and given immortal bodies. THEY will live for all eternity.

Just like you said. Some words have more than one meaning.

Once again you prove my point, although, I would like to rephrase my point.

Original:
Pot calling the kettle black

New One:
Ignorance should be painful.

Does the word insolent mean anything to you?

 

Umm....that is how you translate that participle of "to punish". "Being punished" is the passive participle form. Check it out. I am not making this up. I used Zodhiates Word Study Bible on CDROM to get the participle form for the verb "to punish" in this passage. That is the correct translation for that verb form, "being punished". Funny, that is what the Word of God says, and you say it doesn't say that.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]You said:
"I used Zodhiates Word Study Bible on CDROM to get the participle form for the verb "to punish" in this passage."

Then you said:
"Funny, that is what the Word of God says, and you say it doesn't say that."

It can't be both. Either you got it from the Word of God or you got if from Spiros.

What word is in the original?

'kolazomenous' (punishment)

Which indeed IS a present passive participle. BUT it is part of a complete verb.

The complete verb is:

'kolazomenous teerein' (punishment reserved)

With kolazomenous in the present passive participle and teerein in the present infinitive, it creates a 'present passive participle' that is wholly dependent on the TIME of the 'present infinitive'.

So, the word 'kolazomenous' which means 'to be punished' is dependent upon 'teerein' which means 'reserved' to denote WHEN it becomes 'present'.

Laymans terms:

Reserved is left infinite in this verse. The punishment is to be done IN the TIME that the infinite is denoting, which is the judgment, and until that time, the punishment is reserved right along with the wicked waiting for the judgment.

God Bless