Conversion to Catholicism

Ray, your words seem to have much pride in them.

There's only a couple of things that I think need addressing as I think most people know to ignore attacks such as your last sentence.

Catholics affirm this scripture everytime they go to Mass and participate in the Eucharist. Mary is not a mediator between God and man, but is an intercessor just like your prayer partners are. All of the petitions of the rosary are Christ centered. Mary points to Christ.

Also, Catholics don't pray to the dead. They ask for the intercession from the living.

and the church is the pillar and foundation of Truth...

 

GrannyGumbo,

I came across Mike Gendron's website a couple of years ago, and I tried posting on the website, but their monitoring is so heavy that my posts wouldn't make it onto the web board there. When you speak of "cults," I would say that pro-gospel.org acts very much like a cult in this regard. If you would like to engage in free, open, warm-hearted dialogue and debate with Catholics, I encourage you to visit http://forums.catholic-convert.com - you're free to post there without monitoring or prohibition. Catholics are free to think for themselves, able to hear all sides, and we welcome discussion.

I also suggest http://www.catholicoutlook.com

 

RTS:

It appears you already know Christ, what could changing denominations add to that. Catholics on this board have tried to convince me for a year that we are brothers in Christ. They say that they recognize my faith and that I'm also saved
(just in an incomplete way)....whatever that means. So actually I don't see a need to change and maybe you don't really have a good reason to either. If Christ can't save you as a Baptist, becoming a Catholic won't help either.

Singer

 

FIVE REASONS WHY NO BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN SHOULD EVER BECOME A ROMAN CATHOLIC

(1) THE TRINITY OF GOD IS USURPED!

The Pope claims the place and names that belong to God alone (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, III para. 18).
God, the Father : He claims he is "The Holy Father". This is the unique name of God the Father.

John 17:11 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father , keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." — ‘Thine own name!’ It is God's name alone - it cannot belong to anyone else.

Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father , which is in heaven. "

God, the Son : Pope claims he is "The Head of the Church". This title belongs to Christ alone.

Colossians 1:18 "And [Christ] is the head of the body, the church : who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Ephesians 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church : and he is the saviour of the body."

God, the Holy Spirit : Pope claims he is "The Vicar of Christ". This is the office of the Holy Spirit alone.

John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost , whom the Father will send in my name , he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

The Pope even takes the very name of God. The New York Catechism calls the Pope, "the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God Himself on earth." THE TRINITY OF GOD IS USURPED IN ROMAN CATHOLICISM!

(2) THE INTERMEDIATION OF CHRIST USURPED!

The Bible states, "There is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:5,6).

Rome claims that in her masses she can repeat the sacrifice of the cross and change the wafer and wine into the very body and very blood of Christ. She claims that she perpetuates the sacrifice of the cross (Eucharisticum Mysterium, Intro. C, 1). Again, "In the sacrifice of the Mass our Lord is immolated" [killed as a victim] (Ibid, C, 2).

Christ cried on the cross, “ It is finished " John 19:30.

Hebrews 9:25,26 "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Hebrews 10:12 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever , sat down on the right hand of God."


Rome has elevated Mary to the place of mediation. John Paul II states that "in Mary is effected the reconciliation of God with humanity" (On Reconciliation and Penance. St. Paul Editions, p. 139).

No Christian can accept "The Cult of the Blessed Virgin" (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, VIII para. 66). It is idolatrous and an insult to our Lord Jesus Christ.

THE INTERMEDIATION OF CHRIST IS USURPED BY ROMAN CATHOLICISM!

(3) THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE USURPED!

The Church of Rome cannot establish her false claims that she alone is the preserver of God’s Word and the maintainer of the Truths of the same. Rome is far from being a believer in the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice.

Her rejection of the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice has been brought about by the many additions she has made to Holy Scripture.

The command and warning of God is crystal clear that the Bible must not be added to.

Deuteronomy 4:2 " Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Deuteronomy 12:32 "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto , nor diminish from it."

Proverbs 30:6 " Add thou not unto his words , lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

Jeremiah 23:28 "He that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully."

Revelation 22:18 "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book."

Now the Church of Rome has been found to be a liar and has had added to itself the plagues of the Apocalypse – as God stated in Proverbs 30:6 and Revelation 22:18 – because they've added to God’s Word.
Rome adds to God’s Word by adding more books to the Canonical Scriptures, known as the Apocryphal Books .

These books were never received by the Jewish Church (Romans 3:2); they were never quoted by Christ; they were rejected by the Christian Fathers; and they are self-evidently not inspired . The writer apologises for defects (2 Maccabees 15:39) and one seemingly commands suicide.

They are no part of Holy Scripture; yet, they were added into the Canon by the Church of Rome to make up Rome’s Bible.

Rome also adds to the Bible apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions . Oral tradition evolved into written tradition and the unreliability of oral tradition is exposed in John 21:22,23.

Rome also adds that the interpretation of Scripture must have the "unanimous consent of the fathers". Alas the fathers were far from being unanimous. They contradicted themselves and rarely consented.

In fact, strange to relate Gregory the Great Bishop of Rome stated that the Bishop who claimed to be the Universal Bishop is the forerunner of the Antichrist (Gregory Reqisto. Epist. 1.b. v11. Ind. Is epis 33 ed Benet Domisitos).

Jesus Christ warned against tradition and stated, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition . But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:3,6,9).

Rome stands out as a self-exposed liar and as the target of the judgments of Almighty God by her deliberate adding to the Holy Scriptures of Truth.

At the end of the 19th century Rome added on to the Scripture, the doctrine of infallibility of the Pope, having for years said that the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope was a "Protestant falsehood" (see Papal Catechism). THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE IS USURPED BY ROMAN CATHOLICISM!

(4) THE REMISSION OF SINS IS USURPED!

POPE John Paul II states "It would be foolish and presumptuous … to claim to receive forgiveness while doing without the sacrament" of penance. (On Reconciliation and Penance p.115)

POPE JOHN PAUL II IS A BIBLE-REJECTING HERETIC!

JOHN PAUL II further insists that the individual confession to a priest to receive absolution from him "constitutes the only ordinary way in which the faithful who are conscious of serious sin are reconciled to God " (Ibid, p.132).

The Bible shows us that the way to true remission of sins is clearly contrary to that of the way of Popes, earthly priests, absolutions, and penances:

Ezra 10:11 "Make confession unto the Lord God ."

Psalm 32:5 " I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD ; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin."

Matthew 11:28 "Come unto me , all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

The Lord Jesus never put any earthly priest or Pope between Himself and the sinner. THE REMISSION OF SINS IS USURPED BY ROMAN CATHOLICISM!

(5) THE ASSURANCE OF SALVATION USURPED!

The Church of Rome has put her curse on the Bible way of salvation. "If any man says that it is by the righteousness of Christ itself that men are formally justified – let him be accursed" (Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 10).

"Sins must be expiated. This must be done in this earth through the sorrows, miseries, and trials of this life and above all through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments of purifying punishments" (Indulgentiarum Doctrina, I para. 2).

Rome thereby removes all assurances a sinner may hope to receive of their eternal salvation. However, the Bible paints for us a very different picture in which "the vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives."

1 Corinthians 1:30 "Jesus Christ is made unto us … righteousness."

Romans 5:18 "By the obedience of one (Our Lord Himself) shall many be made righteous."

1 John 1:7 "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Purgatory is not found in the Bible. There is no future wrath for justified sinners.

Romans 5:9 "Being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

You can be saved now and have full assurance of faith in the certainty that you know you have eternal life. You require no priest but Christ alone (Hebrews 4:15). You require no sacrifice but Christ alone (1 John 1:7). You require no mediator but Christ alone (1 Timothy 2:5).

The Pope’s "bad news" points you to Purgatory – a non-existent place! The Lord Jesus Christ’s good news (or gospel) points you to Heaven by simple faith in Himself. Good news indeed!

Remember what Peter said in Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Be warned! Rome's Catholicism is not Christian.

THE ASSURANCE OF SALVATION IS USURPED BY ROMAN CATHOLICISM!

The above material came from this WEBSITE

CHECK OUT THESE WEBSITES FOR AN INTERESTING COMPARISON...

http://www.ewtn.com/holyland2000/gallery/gallery6.asp#

http://jesus-is-lord.com/anti4.htm

 

RTS,

I have no doubt you can see through the holes here. God bless you, brother!

 

As my black friends momma said when we were younger "Lawd have mercy!"

I almost expected that to come from Jack Chicks website. I was pretty close though! I really hope you don't take that information seriously rbrent. Its full of half-truths, it has twisted the words of the documents it quotes, and some of it is flat out lies.

 

Brother Adam wrote - “Mary is not a mediator between God and man, but is an intercessor just like your prayer partners are.

I don’t know why you folks keep spreading DIS-INFORMATION about the beliefs of Catholics.

Do you honestly think we will believe you if you repeat the lies often enough?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mary_cor.htm says of Mary:

“In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate.

In ancient times:

St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): " All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary. "

St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): " [Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her ."

St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): " As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice ." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book " The Glories of Mary ." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: " Mary our Help ," " Mary our Mediatress ," " Mary our Advocate ," etc. 1

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1

1964-NOV-21: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church , passed by the Vatican Council II, and " Solemnly promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI " states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.'
This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death "2  

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home.

Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. " (Yeah, right!)

"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source. " (Footnotes deleted) 7

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, " Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son. "4

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II " referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice. "1

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary… co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs. "1


The above quotations are blasphemous nonsense and there is not any scripture to support them.

Just more good reasons NOT to join the Catholic Church.

 

rbrent,

Please. Unless you have some secret Papal document that says "Mary is the author or creator of grace," you have nothing.

It was through a virgin that ALL GRACE (God) passed into the world. That virgin was Mary. Thus all grace has passed and continues to pass through Mary because that is how the Lord decided to enter the world and bring salvation to all: through Mary.

You post quotations and then say they say things they don't say or add trite commentary ("Yeah right!").

Out of charity, I'll leave it at that.

 

You continue to twist the intent of the words in these documents. You're reading them with "anti-Catholic protestant" glasses on. Catholics do not use words in the exact same way protestants use words, which is where much of the confusion comes from.

Mary was a vessel God used. God passed through Mary. Catholics do not teach that Mary is the author of grace. Mary cooperated with God's plan of redemption and salvation by agreeing to bear the Son of man.

Honestly, your about as qualified to teach what "Catholics really believe" as I am qualified to teach what "Methodists really believe". Your not Catholic. And either am I because neither of us are Catholics.

 

THE IMMACULATE DECEPTION

I've talked to literally hundreds and hundreds of Catholics - from priests and nuns to Knights of Columbus and deacons and lay people.

By the grace of God, I was able to open the scriptures with some of them and lead them to precious saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your protestations that someone is mis-interpreting what the Catholic Church believes is purgatory, er, excuse me, balogna!

 

Yes, Mr. Rbrent teaches the truth about Catholicism all right. But you see, it's the super secret truth that the magesterium teaches. So secret that us Catholics don't know about it.

RTS,

I was reading about someone the other day who was worried about his family when he became Catholic. Wish I could remember who. Funny thing happened after his conversion. They were all anti-Catholics. He got in to gentle, discussions, feeding them bits and pieces as they could understand. They all ended up converting. May have been Mr. Curie who wrote "Born fundamentalist, born again Catholic."

My wife's mother was very anti-catholic. When she told her she was becoming Catholic with our 5 kids at the time, my MIL said she was going to hell and taking the kids with. We did the gentle spoon feeding thing and much prayer and last year (after 3 years) she joined the Catholic Church hearself. Two years ago my wife's grandma also did. You can count on my prayers. Next year were working on her brother.

God bless.

 

Nothing really stuck huh?

(if you lead a Catholic who didn't believe in Jesus to Him, gfu! There's Baptists who aren't saved too. In fact a renowed protestant Baptist Dr. believes that most Baptists are going to hell

 

If you want educated perspectives let me offer one from G.K. Chesterton:

At the last moment of all, the convert often feels as if he were looking through a leper's window. He is looking through a little crack or crooked hole that seems to grow smaller as he stares at it; but it is an opening that looks towards the Altar. Only, when he has entered the Church, he finds that the Church is much larger inside than it is outside. He has left behind him the lop-sidedness of lepers' windows and even in a sense the narrowness of Gothic doors; and he is under vast domes as open as the Renaissance and as universal as the Republic of the world. He can say in a sense unknown to all modern men certain ancient and serene words: Romanus civis sum; I am not a slave. ("The Catholic Church and Conversion" -- Chapter III)

The Catholic Faith is incredibly rich. I have heard it described as like being set loose in a wonderous and beautiful park where all the dangerous and dead-end paths are well marked, so that you may explore and learn and revel in Our Lord and His Creation to your heart's content while knowing that no dangers will befall you.

Along with everything else you're doing, I suggest that you read lots of Chesterton. Perhaps, God willing, you will enter through the narrow door into the vast dome of the Ancient and Universal Faith.

God bless you on your journey.

 

Chesterton Rocks!!

 

Someone recently said this.

'It was through a virgin that ALL GRACE (God) passed into the world. That virgin was Mary. Thus all grace has passed and continues to pass through Mary because that is how the Lord decided to enter the world and bring salvation to all: through Mary.'

Whoever wrote this also believes that the foundation of Purgatory is made with Cracker Barrel Extra Sharp White Cheeze.

We know that when alleged truth comes from a Papal encyclical, God's truth, the Bible, is an inferior document. So when Catholics read John 1:17 it doesn't really mean that ' . . . the Law was given by Moses, and grace and truth has come by Jesus Christ.' Also, study John 3:16. Here again as noted in paragraph two, papal authority trumps the words coming from the living Jesus Christ who is seated at the right hand of the Father God. [Hebrews 1:3.

I would worry if I were at Catholic because the Bible says that the Lord is a terror to our careless ways, [II Cor. 5:11]. Moreover, the Lord ' . . . our God is a consuming fire.' [Hebrews 12:29. And while the Lord eternally radiates this reality, the popes of all ages will die as all other men and be laid in the earth that the Lord has created. In short, the One with the power and authority is 'the consuming fire' and the one with the empty words and authority is the self-proclamed Vicar of Christ.

 

rbrent from Pace, Florida,

I believe you wrote those two long posts. Our doubting Catholic friends should check your documentation and see if you are telling the truth.

Sure hope not too many get caught in the web of quasi-spiritual truth that ever unfolds its unrevealed error until you get deeply into the system of ecclesiastical church life. I am not at all into superstition.

Keep with the Book and you will safely arrive at home.

 

RAY,

I hate to tell you this but the doctrine of purgatory is not based on the decrees of a Pope. In saying this you only show your ignorance once again of Catholicism. The making this doctrine explicit comes from Councils, ratified by Popes. Don't recall off hand, but I think flourence and certainly trent says something about it. The doctrine says nothing against the verses you cite. It merely recognizes that the book of revelatoins says "nothing unclean shall enter" the heavenly kingdom and so there must be a bath or purification we have to go through between here and there. Life can of course do it. But if we die before it is complete, well then if we are not clean except by the grace of God purifying our souls we would go to hell. Surely you can acknowledge this. Don't your believe in the biblical concept of sanctificatoin. What if that sanctification is not complete at the end of life? Why do men still suffer here on earth even though they have repented and given their lives to the Lord Ray? Santificatoin, purification Ray. Nothing unclean shall enter Ray. But by the grace of God we will enter. Purgatory isn't for the unsaved. It's not a second chance as many anti-catholics misrepresent it. It is the grace of God washing our souls clean of all stain of sin committed after our baptisms that has not been purged out by his grace in this life.


Blessings

 

Hi RTS,

Welcome to the message boards! (Although since I'm Catholic, I'm not sure I'm fully qualified to serve as the Baptist Board's Welcome Wagon!)

I imagine you're not seeing anything new in the various posts, but if a topic of particular interest pops up just say so and I'll help as much as I can. (Same for you, Bro. Adam. Which of the topics you listed is of most immediate concern?)

Anyway, I won't say "welcome home" since it sounds like you've been home for 16 years. Maybe "welcome to the table" would work better?

In Christ,

Mark H.

 

Ray,

I'm sorry you felt the need to not bother to look up my name in the post that you quoted, and that you felt it necessary to belittle me with some silly "cheese" statement.