Circumcision vs. Baptism

Jarlaxle:
Water Baptism is a faithful act of obedience that puts the old man of sin to death. It allows us to be free from the guilt of sin. It also allows us to be a new creature. II Cor. 5:17. It symbolizes our death to sin and the walk of a new way of life. Romans 6:3-5. Repentance, baptism and forgiveness are conjoined for the alien sinner. Acts 2:38. The act of baptism is essential for God, through the death,burial and resurrection of Christ, in forgiving us and making us his to walk in newness of life.
I Pet. 3:21, by synechdoche, teaches all the terms be met for salvation to be granted. This would be the case if I used I John 4:2,as a proof for one to confess Christ. The rest of the conditions are implied. Moreover, I could use Acts 11:18 as a proof text for repentance being essential to salvation. The rest of the conditions are implied. The same could be said for belief, John 8:24. It is real simple to me as to the implications of I Pet. 3:21. I have posted them several times.

 

Brain:
His question has been answered. See the last two posts.

No, mechanical instruments are not used in the assembly in worship to God. The Bible authorizes us to sing as per Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16, Hebrews 2:12, Acts 16:25, Romans 15:9,I Cor. 14:15, Mat. 26:30,James 5:13.
God's law of silence also prohibits the use of mechanical instruments in worship. See Hebrews 7:14, Hebrews 8:4. Men must act in accordance to that which is written and authorized. Mat. 4,4,7,10, Lev.10:1,2.

The practice of using mechanical instruments of music in worship began in 670 A. D. by the church at Rome. However, it caused such a distrubance it was removed unitl the year 770 A.D.
Consider the voice of the following:
1. CLARKE "I am an old man, and I here declare that I never knew them to be productive of any good in the worship of God, and have reason to believe that they are productive of much evil. Music as a science I esteem and admire, but instrumental music in the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music, and I here register my protest against all such corruption of the worship of the author of Christianity.

'I have no objections to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen.' I say the same." (Adam Clark, Methodist)
2.CALVIN "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (I Cor. 14:16) What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound?" (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33
3. AUGUSTINE "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)
4.ROBERTSON "The word (psalleto) originally meant to play on a stringed instrument (Sir. 9:4), but it comes to be used also for singing with the voice and heart (Eph. 5:19; 1 Cor. 14:15), making melody with the heart also to the Lord" (A. T. Robertson, Baptist Greek scholar, Baptist Studies in the Nestle James, comment on James 5:13)
5.We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)
6.BARNES "Psallo … is used, in the New Testament, only in Rom. 15:9 and 1 Cor. 14:15, where it is translated sing; in James 5:13, where it is rendered sing psalms, and in the place before us. The idea here is that of singing in the heart, or praising God from the heart" (Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian, Notes on The Testament, comment on Eph. 5:19).
KNOX "a kist (chest) of whistles." (John Knox, Presbyterian, in reference to the organ)
7.WESLEY 'I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685) LUTHER "The organ in the worship Is the insignia of Baal… The Roman Catholic borrowed it from the Jews." (Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong's Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762).
The Bible, history, and scholarship reject mechanical instruments as being authorized by God in worship to him.

As for the television program, it is on a local station T.V. 33 in Lagrange, Ga. It is on the local charter cable system and may be viewed in some 13 counties in west Georgia and eastern Alabama. It is a weekly program aired on Sunday afternoons at 4:30. Lagrange is a samll town of 20,000 located in Troup County. The population of Troup county is some 80,000. In order to view the program, you would have to access charter cable out of LaGrange. I do not know if one could view it via the internet. I will be at the station on Friday and will ask if it is possible to view the program via the net. I will pass on any info about that possibility on Friday or Saturday.

 

Brain:
Is it possible for you to prove using the scriptures my interpretation is biased. If it is so obvious, it should be easy for you to do so. I posted every scripture spoken or written by Peter as it pertains to the subject of I Pet. 3:21. If I omitted any,please post them. It will only harmonize with what has already been posted.

God's book never changes, needs revision or update. This cannot be said for the books men write. So, I do not know what you are attempting to illustrate by the comparison of someone writng 25 books and then a 26th one. We have all the books of God. Therefore, one can know the truth, all of it, on any subject revealed to the sons of men. Deut. 29:29, John 8:32;16:13. I thought you at least believed this.
I am beginning to think you do not believe in attainable, objective, eternal truth. Do you believe in real objective truth or are you a pragmatist as it pertains to the truth. What is your standard?

 

Jarlaxle:
I am, with this post, concluding my remarks on the subject of I Pet. 3:21. It has not been my intent to misrepresent you in anyway. If I have done so, I extend my apology to you. I perhaps failed to see the importance of your question of I Pet. 3:21. However, the Bible and I Pet. teaches us that through water baptism one receives a clean conscience with God. God grants this through the power of the resurrected one. Baptism is essential in having a clear conscience with God. Again, I do not seperate the washing from baptism or the blood of Christ. Therefore, the washing of water baptism by the word does provide a clear conscience with God through Christ. Again, the washing of water or baptism is an act of submission to the will of God and puts one in contact with the blood of Christ which washes away sin. Baptism is the method or operation God chose to do this. Col. 2:12. I hope this is as clear as the word clear could ever be clear. One cannot disconnect the parts from the whole and be saved. I Pet. 3 teaches us this.

Furthermore, I find my reasoning and answer to the question appropriate. You prefer multiple choice answers. I prefer to answer biblical questions in a discusiion format laying out the answer point by point and scripture by scripture and then making my conclusions. I make every attempt to get all the important info. before making my conclusions or implications. You do not seem to like this approach. However, it is the most reliaible way to undertand truth. I choose to use the totality of the evidence on the question. If I have not done so, please post any other scripture essential in understanding the passage in question. I assure you I will study it.

If you want to make blanket statements and generalities about your perceptions of others I would suggest you make them to those whom have given you reason to make those perceptions. Frankly, I think you may get better results in resolving these issues by a more direct approach. Mat. 5,18.

Moreover, you have a strange way of expressing your love to others. Of course, this is my personal perception. However, I do not question your sincerity in making this declaration. I love the souls of all men, especially my brethren.

Irregardless of my perception, I wish for you all the best God has to offer in your walk with God.

Frank

 

Frank,

Are you telling me that I can not “perform” this answer of good conscience to God without having dunked myself in physical water? If so, tell me, when do I have to do the pledge? On the way down, while I am under the water, or on the way up?

 

Jarlaxle:
i believe the question you asked was answered. I noticed you did not answer the questions I asked. Why?
One does not "perform" baptism individually. It requires another person for baptism. SEE Mat. 28:18-20. Perhaps, you should clarify what you mean by perform. Baptism is a work of God but we must do it. John 6:28,29. In all matters of faith complete obedience is necessary to be forgiven. Hebrews 5:8,9. One who has not been overwhelmed, immersed has not been cleansed. One is cleansed and has the clear conscience when he is baptized into Christ,not before. The Eunoch was joyous after he was baptized, not before. Acts 8:39,40. The children of Israel were after they passed through the clouds and the sea. I Cor.10:1,2. One contacts the blood when he is baptized and he is cleansed. He arises to walk in newness of life. It seems to me Romans 6:3-5 is the best commentary on this that I know.
Are men cleansed before they are washed?
I say this kindly, for someone who has been a " member all his life" you seem to have a lot of questions about that which you profess. Are you next going to ask what happens if they have a heart attack while under the water?

 

That's a contradiction in your reasoning Frank. It either a work of God OR if we must do it, then it a work of man. In can't be both. Since God is not doing the baptizing here it is clearly a work of man. Salvation is a work of God's grace. You have made it a religion of works. "We must do it." Those are your exact words. If needful for salvation your religion is a works based religion. Christianity is not. It is all of grace. Works follow salvation--all of the time!
DHK

 

Brian:
You missed the point entirely. There are NO SCRIPTURES FOR MECHANICAL INSTRUMENTS. SILENCE. This is the same reason God did not allow Christ to be a high priest on earth. WHY? SILENCE. HEBREWS 7:14;8:4, Lev.10:1,2. CONCLUSION: God authorizes acts of obedience by WHAT IS WRITTEN, NOT THAT WHICH HE HAS NOT REVEALED( SILENCE).
Now,in accordance with God's law authorizing practice, i.e. that which is written, post the scripture authorizing mechanical instruments. If you find one in the New Testament of Christ that authorizes M.I inour worship, you will be the first person in the history of mankind to find it.
There are many other examples where men are punished because they appeal to silence. Uzzah, was struck dead as he put his ahands on the cart to steady it. The Israelites transgressed God;s law by moving the ark on a cart. Saul returned with king Agag when he was told to destroy all the people. The list goes on and on.
Brian, The point of those scriptures is that God NEVER uses what he has not said ( silence) to authorize practice by man. It is as Jesus said in Mat. 4:4,7,10.... IT IS WRITTEN. Therefore, mechanical instruments are prohibited by both the specific command to sing and God's law of silence. I hope this helps.
The problem is the failure to understand how God authorizes. God authorizes by what he has written. II Tim. 3:16,17. He does not authorize by silence.
This is a basic tenant of the faith. I am surprised you are so confussed by this.

 

DHK:
The Bible says in John 6:28,29, that belief is the work of God that we must do. Your argument is with God. The disciples asked, What must WE do to work the works of God? Jesus answered, this is the work of God that YOU believe on him whom he hath sent.
QUESTION: Is preaching a work of God or man? Mark 16:15,16.
Question:Is following the commands of the New Testament a work of God or man? John 14:15. Which One? Is baptizing one in the name of the father , and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit a work of God or man? Mat. 28:19.
You contradict the word of God outright by your statement and it is obvious you cannot answer the question and still be true to your" logical claim." Which one is it? Bible or your Logic?

 

Frank, please repeat the question I did not answer. I apologize for overlooking it.

What do you mean by saying, "belief is the work of God that we must do."? If you are saying that we do it, then it is no longer God's work but our own. It can not be both. I personally think when it refers to belief as "God's work" that means that God has done all the work essential to persuade us to believe in God; i.e. put us exactly where and when we live Acts 17:26-27.

Let me clarify my last question above: It seems you are telling me that I can not carry out, do, perform (use whatever adjective you deem best) this act of asking God for a clear conscience without having been dunked (by somebody else). IF that is indeed what you are saying with regards to 1 Peter 3:21, then please tell me when it is I am supposed to do, perform, accomplish (again, fill in your adjective) the act of asking God for a clear conscience. Am I supposed to ask God before I get dunked, while I am under the water, while I am coming up out of the water, etc...?

 

You misunderstand Scripture here. It turns out you would therefore have the argument with God, not I. Jesus would never contradict Himself, nor His Word: "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works.
Jesus was using a play on words. Of course, there is no works you can do to enter heaven, to gain salvation. That is precisely why he used the word "work." He was saying simply "believe." That is not a work, but it is the only thing one must do to gain eternal life. Believe! Salvation is not of works. Argue it with God.

[QUOTE QUESTION: Is preaching a work of God or man? Mark 16:15,16.[/QUOTE]
Yes, works follow salvation.

They are works of man, commands of Christ. They are things that YOU do. God doesn't do them. You do. They are WORKS, and they follow salvation, are not a part of salvation.

It is the Bible Frank. And you do not believe that salvation is all of grace. You do not believe that when Jesus cried out in John 19:30, "It is finished," that he meant it. You believe that you have to add to the work that Jesus provided on the cross. Unbelief is a serious sin.
DHK

 

Brian:
I talked with the technical man at T. V. 33 in LaGrange. He informed me that one could not at this time view their programing via the net. If you wish to view their programing it would require a cable link with charter communcations or the good old fashion Antenna.

 

DHK:
I do not misunderstand the immediate context nor remote context of John 6:28,29. Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said.
The Bible does not teach anything ALONE SAVES US. That is in book 000, chapter 000 ,and verse 000.
Well are preaching, keeping the commands of God works of merit?

 

#1. Circumcision is "never" given as "the sign of the OC". And the term "OC" is very specific.

#2. As you point out - Circumcision is only applicable to males - HOWEVER as Paul points out in Romans 2 - the "spiritual" act of Circumsion - is done for BOTH males and females and applies to the heart - and is the work of the Holy Spirit. (AND is still applicable today).

#3. Peter points out that "Baptism now saves you - NOT the application of magic water touching the flesh (as in a magical sacrament) - BUT the APPEAL to GOD for a CLEAN conscience". 1Peter 3:21

That statement of Peter's is not going to go over well with the "magic sacrament" crowd - but it is instructive nonetheless.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The flaw with that is basic to the Gospel. The sinful nature results in the "depravity" that we see described in Romans 8 and Romans 3 in the lost sinful state of mankind. There is "no lost-believing" according to Romans 8. "They DO not submit to God's Will neither indeed CAN they".

When one is exposed to truth - and is DRAWN by the supernatural Power of God (John 12:32) they must CHOOSE faith and then they must CHOOSE belief in Christ - they must then CHOOSE to repent and then they must CHOOSE to CONTINUE to learn of "truth" until they see the value and obligation of Baptism - and then they must CHOOSE to sumbit to that command of God.

As in the case of Acts 10:45 it is the work of the Holy Spirit transforming the heart BEFORE baptism. The EXTREME case of Acts 10 shows NOT ONLY heart transformation - and new birth - it ALSO shows the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit poured out upon the "unbaptized" saints.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So you don't believe the Bible when it says in Eph.2:8,9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
DHK

 

Jarlaxle:
The submission to the will of God in the like figure of baptism is the appeal to have the clear or clean conscience before God. Are you going to answer the three questions I asked you or continue to avoid them?
Finally, it is apparent there is a communciation problem in this portion of the thread. I have used related scriptures to the topic to interpret the passage in question. I have explained the grammatical construct of the passage and the meaning of the words in question. I have answered your multiple choice question at least twice. I have followed I Pet. 3:15 in givng an answer for the hope that is within me. If you are not satisfied with the answer, or do not like the answer, so be it. I have discharged my duties in this matter.
I am puzzled how an a " Lifetime member of the church" and a self proclaimed " expert" does not understand one of the first principles of doctrine. Hebrews 5: 12-14. One would think with credentials like these, one would understand the very basic doctrine of baptism. I continue to learn something new each passing day.
Have a good day.

 

DHK:
Yes, I believe Eph. 2:8,9. Now,m answer the questions, please!

 

Jarlaxle:
I am going to use an illustration of John 6:28,29.
If one works for the local county board of education, whose work is he doing? His own or that which is authorized by the local board.
Although I am the one working for the board, I must by law do the authorized work or I am out of there. Christians follow the same principle in their workmanship. We work but it is the work that is authorized by God. It is,in essence, his work but we must do it or we are fired, in a manner of speaking. I am not very good with illustrations most of the time, that is why I just try to use the scriptures. It seems to me that is exactly what Jesus told the apostles by implication in John 6:28,29. Jesus also said in John 15:4, without me you can do nothing. I make every attempt to be a servant of God realizing without his grace I am nothing. Therefore, I work. Eph. 2:10. I do his bidding or work. Is it not the case that a servant works for his master and does his work. In other words, that which the master commands to be done, the servant must do or again he is not faithful in his duty toward his master. The work of God we do does not merit our salvation. Our work is motivated because of the grace of God and the ultimate reward for being faithful,not by our flawlessness or earning eternal bliss. I hope this helps.
If you disagree, so be it. I wish you the best.