Circumcision vs. Baptism

Jarlaxle:
I want to apologize for any and all of my short, terse, or offensive comments. If I have made assumptions concerning your position or misrepresented you, again, I apologize. I regret my inability to adequately answer in a manner that helps you! I appreciate your interest in the truth. I wish you the best in Christ.
Yours in Christ,
Frank

 

This is the question you want answered? I must have missed it first time around.

Preaching, keeping the commands of God, are works of merit, works that man does. They cannot obtain salvation for us, only God's grace can do that.
DHK

 

DHK:
Where in the Bible is it taught that preaching and keeping the commands of God are works of merit?
Jesus said keeping his commandments expressed Love. John 14:15. So, is it the case we earn Jesus' love by doing works of merit? If not, why not?
The Bible teaches in I Cor. 1:18-21 that God chose preaching to save. How then is it man's work of merit? Jesus was a preacher. What was he trying to merit? Mark 1:38.
If preaching is to produce faith, Romans 10:17, and God chose it to save, I Cor. 1:18-21, and men are not to preach themselves, II Cor.4:5, but Christ crucifed II Cor. 2:2, and Paul said God put him in the ministry, I Tim. 1:12, and God ordained him to preach unto the Gentiles II Tim. 1:11, How is it the case preaching is man's meritorious work?

Preaching is the work of God that man must do to save through the power of God. II Cor. 5:7. Even, Jesus said as a young lad said, "I must be about my father's business." Luke 2:49. Remember, Jesus was a preacher. Whose work was he doing? Mark 1:38. Jesus said,in John 9:4, Jesus said I must work the works( Of whom?)him that sent me. Who sent Christ? Whose work was the preacher Jesus working?

ANSWER:The Bible teaches Jesus was sent by God to do God's work. John 9:4. Jesus was preaching and teaching in the synagogues many times. Luke 4:14-21. What was Jesus trying to merit? Jesus said he was doing God's work.

The Bible plainly teaches that keeping God's commandments, which includes preaching, is the work of God, not the meritorious efforts of man. You try so hard to stay out of the right hand ditch,( no works, all God ), you end up in the left hand ditch( keeping God's commandments are works of merit).

 

Perhaps I was too hasty in answering your question Frank. What on earth do you mean by "merit?" I see now you have asked a very ambiguous question. Do the works merit salvation? NO! Do the works merit reward in Heaven for the believer? Yes. Works are commands of God for the believer to keep.

What was the purpose of Jesus works? I guarantee you it is not for the same purpose that we do works.

John 10:31-33
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
--Jesus works demonstrated that He was God; do yours??

Eph.2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
--Salvaton is not of works. However the saved person is created for good works and should walk in them.

[QUOTEThe Bible teaches in I Cor. 1:18-21 that God chose preaching to save. How then is it man's work of merit? Jesus was a preacher. What was he trying to merit? Mark 1:38.[/QUOTE]
Man merits reward in Heaven if he saved; otherwise his works merit him filthy rags (Isa.64:6). Jesus works demonstrated that He was God.

Meritorious in the sense of gaining reward in heaven.

Preaching is the method that God gave to man to spread the gospel. However, it is still man that does the work. God doesn't come and do the preaching. Man does it. Therefore it is a work of man.

Are you Jesus?

Never does it say that preaching in and of itself is a work of God. It is simply God's method. It is for man to do, man's work of preaching the gospel, that God gave him.
DHK

[ February 01, 2003, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

DHK:
Let me get this straight works do not merit salvation. However, they merit reward in heaven. Jesus said belief was a work John 6:28,29. Is it essential to being saved and getting to heaven? The context teaches both. In John 6:27-29, Jesus said, " Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28  ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Verse 27 teaches work is esential to getting into heaven.
Verse 28 Identifies God's work that WE must do.
Verse 29. Identifies belief as our work.
CONCLUSION: We must work the works of God. We will be saved and recive life everlasting in so doing.
IMPLICATION OF THE TEXT: One who is saved and gets into heaven must work the works of God. One who is not saved will be excluded from salvation and eternalor everlasting life because he did not work the works of God.

You said Jesus did not do the works we do for the same purpose as we do them.
Jesus said he came to seek and save the lost. Luke 19:10. He also preached this message. Luke 4:16-21, Mark 1:38.
Jesus commanded us to do the SAME THING. (Preach).
Jesus commanded us to do the SAME THIG FOR THE SAME PURPOSE. Mark 16:15,16.( Salvation).
You said,Jesus works demonstrated he was God. Do yours? No, Jesus has already proven he God and to prove he had the power to forgive sins. SEE Mark 2:6-11.
The inspired apostles did greater works than Jesus, ARE THEY GREATER than Jesus? John 14:12. This line of questioning proves nothing.

You said, works merit reward in heaven, not salvation. The inspired Paul proclaimed in Phil 2:12,Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

You said, preaching is man's work God does not come down from heaven to do it.

God does not come down from heaven to grant repentance unto life or remit sins. Yet, the Bible teaches God does these things. John 20:23, Acts 11:18. Are you affriming that men remit sins and grant repentance unto life?

The same could be said for preaching. Although God does not do it, and he obviously could not, He is SPIRIT, not flesh. It is still the work of God. He uses man as the instrument to do HIS WORK. II Cor. 5:7. Servants are rewarded when they faithfully do the work of their master. If they fail to do the work of their master, they will not be rewarded. Mat. 25:20-46.

 

Frank,

Sorry I have been away from the forum for a few days. Thank you for your apology, and I return your apology with my own as well. If my bluntness comes across as pious, I can only beg that my character flaw in that respect might be overlooked.

You stated in an earlier post that I have not answered some of your questions. Please list them and I will answer them. It is hard for me to decipher sometimes which questions you are actually asking and which are redundant / sarcastic.

It seems you are saying that 1 Peter 3:21 is telling us that the dunking is the pledge itself, but I can not fathom how this can be the case when he clearly says it is not the dunk but it is the pledge. If your interpretation were true, then Peter would have said something to the effect of, “This washing of filth from your flesh is your pledge to God…” But that is not what he says, he says it is not the dunk, it is the pledge.

Paul asks with respect to circumcision, “If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?” And I ask you now, if those who are not baptized keep the new law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were baptized?

 

Jarlaxle:
There is a difference between the old law and the new. The old law was a legalistic system. The New testament is a system of faith.( Gal. 3:24). In view of this fact, anyone who is obdeient to the system of faith would be saved. Romans 1:16,17. Since circumcision was for the Jews under a legal system, it would make no difference ( Gal. 5:3-6) to the salvation of those being discussed by Paul in Romans. However, the system of faith requires baptism for unto the remission of sins. So, no any person can be saved whether they are circumcised or not, as we are under the law to Christ, not Moses or Abraham, who requires faithful obedience. I Cor. 9:21, Mark 16:16.
Furthermore, I Pet. 3:21 does not teach the act of baptism seperate and a part from the power of God saves anyone. The text itself declares BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST. The power to save is God's through Christ's death burial and resurrection 6:3-6. The Bible teaches in these passages that those who have become Christians did so by baptism. Gal. 3:26-29, Eph.5:26. This is consistent and harmonious with every example of conversion in the Bible. It is consistent with every reference as to the purpose of baptism. Acts 2:38;22:16;8:39,40.
Please answer these five serious questions?
1. Were the children of Israel saved in Numbers 21:8,9 by looking upon the brazen serpent seperate and without the power of God?
2. Were the children of Israel saved by the baptism of Moses in I Cor. 10:1,2 seperate and without the power of God?
3. Were the children of Israel saved by the blood of the lamb seperate and without the power of God. Exodus 12:21-24.
4. According to first Peter 3:21, are we saved by baptism seperate and without the power of God?
5. According to I Pet. 3:21 are we saved by baptism by the power of God through the resurrection of Christ?

 

You have proved my point Frank. Look at your last statement: Servants are rewarded when they faithfully do the work of their master. It is man that it is doing the work, not God. We all are in God's service, there is no doubt about that, unless you are here just out of curiosity's sake. It is your work because you do it. It is not God that is doing the work; you are. In the case of redemption and regeneration, God indeed regenerates the heart, but does not have to make a special trip down from Heaven, become flesh, and physically do the work, as He did when Jesus preached the Gospel. Compare apples with apples. You asked if Jesus preaching the gospel was a work. Yes it was, for Jesus was totally human as well as totally God on this earth. And as a man he preached the gospel. God does not have to become a man to regenerate the heart. Your example doesn't even make sense.
DHK

 

Frank,

I used to use this very same analogy when trying to prove that baptism was not a work that saves. However, I see now that this example is different because it is for physical healing whereas forgiveness of sins is for spiritual healing. And therefore can not be compared. Nevertheless, no, looking at the serpent did not save their souls. I think you are talking about being physically saved however, and I would say that God healed them for believing that God would heal them. And, all that believed looked up to the serpent because they believed.

I would say that they were not saved. What good does it do a man to be baptized into another man (i.e. Moses), regardless of whether we are talking about physical or spiritual baptism? Can Moses forgive save a man?

Nope; Hebrews 10:4.

Nope. I do not know why you asked this question since I have stated repeatedly that the pledge saves by the power of Jesus.

Again, I don’t know why you ask other than you will try and confuse the issue. I have stated this exactly.

I agree with you that we must do the work we do with the correct motivation, however we are saved at the point of belief else our salvation is given via obligation as opposed to a free gift regardless of the motivation.

I have another question for you Frank:

What aspect is there about circumcision that puts it into the works category, whereby baptism does not have a similar characteristic?

 

Jarlaxle:
The examples posted demonstrate the principle by which God saves us. God operates ans communicates tous in the physical realm. God uses our senses, elements or instrumentation to teach spiritual lessons.
Jesus chose bread to represent his body and the fruit of the vine as his blood. Although the elements themselves have no power to save, they are essential in being deemed faithful and saved before Christ. Are you affriming that taking the Lord's Supper is not essential? I Cor. 11:24-29. Again, the principle is the same. God chooses instruments to save. It is the only way God can operate in the physical realm in which we live and teach us what we must do to be saved.
Are you affirming the blood of Christ is not essential for us to be saved since it is an instrument? Blood is physical just as bread, fruit of the vine, serpents, lambs blood, moses baptism, water baptism.
Jarlaxle, to demonstrate this truth that God uses INSTRUMENTS TO SAVE, I want to give you the commentary of Jesus on this issue. Jesus said in John 3;14,15, and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus said in John 12:32, And I if I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself.
Jesus equates the figure of the brazen serpent on the pole and men "looking " to him on the cross for SALVATION.
The rulers of John 12 42-44 believed but would not confess Christ. These men are not saved are they?
Jesus said confession is a requirement. Mat.10:32. The devils of James 2:19 do not by their belief cease to be devils do they?
Jarlaxle, BIBLICAL BELIEF SAVES,not just mental ascent. The failure to display and obedient, working faith has always been rebuked by Christ. In fact, the faith that pleases God in every dispensation of time is an obedient active one, no exceptions. If baptism is not an act of an obedient faith, what is it?
Jesus said BELIEF ITSELF IS A WORK. John 6:28,29. My friend you are fighting Jesus on this one. Hebrews 11. Luke 6:46, Mat. 7:21,22. BELIEVE is an action verb. It is Pisteou in the greek. It is a verb, not a noun. Faith is the noun. According to the Bible, what actions save us? If you use only passages that mention belief, I promise you by the same Bible produced by the same Holy Spirit, I will provide scriptures that teach repentance, confession, baptism, blood, faithfulness save to get the total picture of salvation in proper view. I guarantee it!!
I am confussed a little by your statements. On the one hand, you said we must be baptized to become children of God. You said baptism was essential to salvation. Then, in your most recent post, you state that at the point of belief men are saved. Please, calrify. Which one is it? Is it baptism only, or belief only or, is it both?
In regards to circumcision,I answered your question. The rite of circumcision was for Jews. It was not promised to Gentiles. Baptism is for all men by faith. The old law was a temporary imperfect system to bring us to perfection... Christ! Gal 3:22-24. The new law is one by faith in Christ. Circumcision did not save. I Pet. 3;21 teaches baptsim does save. Baptism is the circumcison not of hands but by the heart of faith in Christ.
The Bible says in Col. 2:11,12,In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
The Old law was a shadow of the good things to come. Hebrews 10:1,2. The Bible says in Gal. 5: 6,For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but FAITH which WORKETH by LOVE. Baptism is a work. It is God's work and operation. It is in the Bible. Col. 2:12, John 6:28,29,Mark 16:16, Acts 8:18; 8: 30-40;16:30-33. However, you can search the Bible today , tomorrow, and for a thousand years and you will not find anything only saves us! You will not find at the point of belief only one is saved. An ole preacher once said," there ain't no scripture fer it!" That is just the way it is.
I wish you the best.

 

DHK:
It makes perfect sense to anyone who undestands the relationship between a master and a servant. The servant does his master's work. The servant is not the one who owns. ( Redeemded as you like to say). It is the master. Paul said we are labourers together with God we are his husbandry we are his building. I Cor. 3:9. In verse 10 Paul is GIVEN the work as a wise master builder. In short, we do the work of God, It is his work to save, not ours. We are simply the instruments he use to work his works. The Bible says so! John 6:28,29. It will read that way on the day of judgment , too!
Of course, it does not make any sense to you. You do not understand John 6:28,29 any better than a lot of other passages in the Bible.

 

Frank,
Certainly preaching is God's work, but God isn't going to do it for you. It is a work that God has given to you to do. If you are not saved even the work of preaching is "as filthy rags" to God. To a saved person it is simply reward. It does nothing toward meriting salvation. Preaching is a work man does to reach other men. It is a command of God carried out by man, thus man's work.
So also is prayer; so also is baptism.
DHK