The Church as the Kingdom of God

UPDATE !!!


Singer is already a Saint.

You Catholics have to wait for a panel to vote on your sainthood...Too sad .

My authority:

Philippians 4:21
Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose

There might even be a reference to the church that calls herself "her".

Revelation 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with
the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered
with great admiration.

 

So Singer who made you the expert on Catholic theology? Have you ever heard of the term "Communion of the saints". If not perhaps you should not comment as an "expert" and just assume that you are a pert with regard to Catholic doctrine and dogma.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. THE PARTICIPANTS IN THAT SOLIDARITY ARE CALLED SAINTS by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption (I Cor., i, 2-Greek Text). The damned are thus excluded from the communion of saints. "

If we are in error Singer, the way to get us out of it is to try and understand our beliefs correctly and how we see them as in concert with scripture. Then if we truly are wrong, perhaps you will be able to reason with us rather than looking foolish.

Blessings

 

Hi Thes:

So Singer who made you the expert on Catholic theology? Have you ever
heard of the term "Communion of the saints". If not perhaps you should
not comment as an "expert" and just assume that you are a pert with
regard to Catholic doctrine and dogma.

"Who made you" seems to be a common term used by those of you
who have graduated from the "How to Debate on Message Forums"
course offered by the Vatican. Actually I haven't studied Catholicism;
there is no need to delve deeply into the Exclusive Sects to gain an
understanding of the gospel message. For myself, I bypassed all the
rigamarole of organized religion and appealed to the creator when I
sought peace for my soul. (That must irritate theose who feel they have
a Franchise on God and it does decrease from Catholic Coffers).
That "Five Easy Steps to God" system has not failed thousands upon
thousands of seekers since before Ignatius founded the Catholic Church.
I've corrected your insert below to include a more flattering aroma
of Popemania !

From the Catholic Encyclopedia: ( In Conjunction with Ripley's)

"The communion of saints (Imaginary Term) is the spiritual solidarity
(Otherwise known as "Brainwashedness) which binds together the
faithful on earth, (Faithful Catholics that is ) ,the souls in purgatory
(Imaginary Term), and the saints in heaven (Catholics Only)
in the organic unity (Like Stirring your Compost Pile) of the same
mystical body (Body means Catholic Church of course) under Christ
its head, (Christ is not the head of Protestantism) and in a constant
interchange of supernatural offices.
( Yet....? If not Read On) !! .

THE PARTICIPANTS IN THAT SOLIDARITY (Similar to Russian Roulette)
ARE CALLED SAINTS by reason of their destination (By a Panel of Hardline
Catholics) and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption
(Quite possibly partaking in too much Wine) (I Cor., i, 2-Greek Text).
P.S......(You wont find this in the English Bible) The damned (Non-Catholics)
are thus excluded from the communion of saints. " (Same
Imaginary Group as in Para. 1)

If we are in error Singer, the way to get us out of it is to try and
understand our beliefs correctly and how we see them as in concert
with scripture. Then if we truly are wrong, perhaps you will be able to
reason with us rather than looking foolish.

Yes, I've noticed how conceding your group is to Instruction Do-dee-dooo

 

You know what I have noticed on theese boards. Very few people will acknowledge anyone elses opinions about scripture. I prefer not to go with peoples opinions. It's infallible interpruters that I like and your not one (even I think you will admit). Seems to me the problem is authority.

 

Yes, I've noticed how conceding your group is to Instruction

Those in the Truth do not concede the Truth.

Since the practices of the Catholic Faith have a history which goes back 2000 years, the burden is not on us. It is on you to prove them wrong. The only problem is that by trying to do so, you immediately place yourself in contradiction to the words of our Lord in Scripture as well as the teachings of the apostles handed down over the centuries.

I notice in your posts that a continuous theme you bring up is how "organized religion" devastated your life and drove you to find a way of worship which is not associated with any sort of hierarchial structure or organization. To me, this is lamentable, although understandable considering what you went through.

The whole of the Scriptures speaks to a kingdom which is organized and has hierarchy. Bad leadership does not invalidate the truth of the kingdom. It does make the kingdom's members miserable, as we have seen in the current scandals involving the Roman rite. Certainly no one in Catholicism is comfortable watching this and assorted other problems take place. But the answer is not to jettison the Truth for a place of error, but to "stay and pray", trusting in the Lord for change in His providence and timing.

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


Brother Ed

 

Those in the Truth do not concede the Truth.

Jesus is the Truth....not something you can be "in" as in a church.

Since the practices of the Catholic Faith have a history which
goes back 2000 years, the burden is not on us. It is on you to prove
them wrong. The only problem is that by trying to do so, you immediately
place yourself in contradiction to the words of our Lord in Scripture
as well as the teachings of the apostles handed down over the centuries.

No, CC it's the opposite. You have superimposed something into scripture
that was not there in the first place. You don't need proven wrong...you
never were right. Practices don't save us no matter how far back they go.


The whole of the Scriptures speaks to a kingdom which is
organized and has hierarchy.

Yes, the "Kingdom of God" which was spoken about in ways that do not
relate to an organization.

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
of God is within you.


Relating to an hierarchy or organization would be saying "Lo Here".

 

Singer,

So Singer, your scriptural interprutations (as well as historical ones, for I have never seen anyone say Ignatius started the Catholic Church, Constantine is the most likely answer among non-catholics) are a bit unique many times. So where you conflict with others can I take it to the bank that it is you that is always rigtht? If not it seems to me that you make the holy spirit a liar when you err (which is often I am afraid).

""Who made you" seems to be a common term used by those of you
who have graduated from the "How to Debate on Message Forums"
course offered by the Vatican. "

God bless you Singer.


PS. Singer, I actually love it when you distort Catholic truth. I have seen more than one new Convert say what oppened them up to the Catholic faith was the way the other side distorted the truths of the Catholic faith. So keep it up.

[ May 09, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

Dear Thes:

The supposed unity and common beliefs of the Catholic Church
members seems to be falling apart; for I quote here from a present
day writer and promoter of Catholicism:

The term "catholic" was first used by Ignatius in
110 A.D. to describe a "universal church". Over the years
it became the proper noun Catholic to refer to the
religion that believed in various doctrines. For 1000
years, the Catholic Church was the only "orthodox"
church until the split with the Eastern Orthodox church
occurred in 1054 A.D. due to geographical, cultural, and
religious reasons.

So you see.....the universal church (generic) existed before Ignatius
took the old greek word "katholicos" or "catholic" which was and
still is an adjective, added a capital "C" which changed it into a
Proper Noun as the name of a Church...........then made claims that
it was the FIRST church started by Jesus himself; of which deception
still reigns today.

This is only if we can believe the writer of that paragraph. However
it is quite possible that not all Catholics think alike; much to their dismay.

As for me always being ''right''; I contend that ''Firstness" and "Rightness"
does not give us merit with God. He respects no one.

We are rather meant to accept that we are all sinners who need God's grace
and Christ's propitiation for our inabilities to please Him.

He looked to the cross and left us with a glorious inheritance:

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and
this life is in his Son.

5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the
Son of God hath not life.

5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the
name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,
and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


It doesn't get any easier than that, Thes.

I have seen more than one new Convert say what oppened them
up to the Catholic faith was the way the other side distorted the truths
of the Catholic faith. So keep it up

Isn't it ironic that those leaving the Catholic faith use the same reasoning !!

 

The supposed unity and common beliefs of the Catholic Church
members seems to be falling apart; for I quote here from a present
day writer and promoter of Catholicism:



Your funny. Because he used the term Catholic to describe the Christian Church, that means he created the Catholic Church. Perhaps you can attribute all of it's beliefs to him, then you might want to prove that noone else before him held those beliefs. Then you might have something, but just applying a word to something, pretty weak. I have no problem with what the writer wrote but once again you distort it because truth really means nothing to you.

"As for me always being ''right''; I contend that ''Firstness" and "Rightness"
does not give us merit with God. He respects no one."

Nice duck of the real issue. Now the Eunuch had phillip bring him the whole untainted truth. Peter brought the whole untainted truth to Cornelius. Paul brought it to the jailor and lydia etc. etc. . They did not just hand them a book and say go to it. Yet it is okay for Singer to have errors and distort the truth.

I agree with those verses you posted. They give me much comfort. If one believes lies, any lies, and perpetuates them, does he have the Son? 0

"Isn't it ironic that those leaving the Catholic faith use the same reasoning !! "

What reasoning might that be Singer. You tell them a lie about the Catholic faith that weakens their faith and then you win them over to your view of what scripture says. Yes, that is exactly what I was talking about Singer. Lies. Your good at them. You are a deciever. You think it is okay to lie if you win someone over to what you think is true. A lie is a lie Singer and you have been caught in many verifiable ones on this board about the Catholic Church, yet you brush them off as if they do not matter.
There is little point dialoguing with you. I will keep you in my prayer.

 

In my experience, in general, those who leave the Catholic faith were uncatechized: did
not 1. know the faith nor 2. understand the faith.

That might be an easy ticket to heaven then.....(Just at some point in life; join the Catholic Church for even a short time) and receive the H.S. through baptism, eat flesh and blood
and assure that someone will be there to pay and pray you out of Purgatory.

But yet it seems that there is no requirement in my KJV bible to "know or understand'' the Catholic faith. All of those claims seem to have erupted with the onset of Catholicism....not
from the bible.

 

You tell them a lie about the Catholic faith that weakens their faith and then you
win them over to your view of what scripture says. Yes, that is exactly what I was
talking about Singer. Lies. Your good at them. You are a deciever. You think it is okay
to lie if you win someone over to what you think is true. A lie is a lie Singer and you
have been caught in many verifiable ones on this board about the
Catholic Church, yet you brush them off as if they do not matter.

What were the lies?

That:

Mary had other children
Bread and wine are symbols
We do not eat Jesus' actual flesh and blood
Catholicism is a denomination
Water baptism does not endow one with the HS
There IS salvation outside of the Catholic Faith
Priests cannot forgive sins
Purgatory is a lie
Mary is not the Mother of God
Protestants are not Incomplete Christians
We are Saved by Grace Through Faith.
Singer is Saved ...Hallelujah.!!
Baptism by Desire is a hoax.
The Pope is not Holy
Jesus did not start the Catholic Church
The Vaticans publications are not infallible
Peter is not the Rock of my Salvation
Peter was not the first Pope.
The "Body of Christ" is not the Catholic Church
The "Kingdom of God" is not the Catholic Church
The word "Church" in the bible does not refer to the Catholic Church
The reason of creation was NOT for the purpose of establishing the RCC.

 

Hello CtholicConvert

I see you’ve been busy. You probably don't even remember our debate, never the less, I find myself with some time to address the points that you brought up. As usual, sorry for the long delay.

You said- " Keith, you have a problem. Our Lord promised that the Church would not be prevailed against by the gates of hell. That promise means that the doctrines and teachings which were given to the apostles must have been the truth. The same truth which the apostles passed on to the very next generation.

Now from the earliest writings of the Early Fathers of the Church, we specifically do not see anything resembling Adventist teachings. What we do see is that the Early Church taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist and baptismal regeneration. So immediately, the Adventist position simply cannot be true because it did not exist back then. The claims that Ellen White simply restored what the evil papists corrupted is not true either."

The gates of hell will not prevail against the church of Christ. This is the truth. You start off with a good foundation, that the church is built upon the doctrines, and teachings of the apostles. This is the truth. Then however, you seem to speak of the supposed church Fathers as having an equal standing with the writings of the scriptures themselves, this is wrong. I have many of the writings of the supposed church Fathers, and I am not impressed at all with them. I will judge the truth by the scriptures alone, for they are sufficient.

2 Tim 3:15-17 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

As far as your position regarding Adventist teachings, this point is also moot. Adventist believe what the bible teaches, not what the supposed church Fathers taught. If you don't see what we teach, it is because you don't read your bible, not because what we believe is not true. The new testament is the writings of the apostles, which predate your supposed church Fathers. I guess your just not looking back far enough.

You said-"No, the Church at Rome (there is no such thing as the Church of Rome) is the place where the bishop of Rome, who is the head over the Body of Christ here on earth, is located. The Church is Catholic, i.e., universal, and until 1054 and the schism of the Orthodox, was composed of patriarchates in 5 major cities. Rome, Byzantium, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria."

I call the Catholic church the church of Rome, because it was the power of the emperors of Rome that established her. A power which she then usurped to hold sway over the kings of the earth. Though the church is supposed to be separate from the world, the church of Rome always has relations with the kings of the earth. Observe the following from the emperor Justinian as proof of the above.

TITLE 1.
CONCERNING THE MOST EXALTED TRINITY AND THE
CATHOLIC FAITH AND PROVIDING THAT NNE
SHALL DARE TO PUBLICLY OPPOSE THEM.

1. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to the people of the City of Constantinople.

We desire that all peoples subject to Our benign Empire shall live under the same religion that the Divine Peter, the Apostle, gave to the Romans, and which the said religion declares was introduced by himself, and which it is well known that the Pontiff Damascus, and Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, embraced; that is to say, in accordance with the rules of apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine, we should believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single Deity, endowed with equal majesty, and united in the Holy Trinity.

(1) We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, We order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven.

Your church was established by the kings of the earth, not the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ's church is established by the power of the Holy Spirit, not the power of the state. The following sheds more light on the subject.

When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror. The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome. Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art. When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind. May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from their beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

Again, the church of Rome was established by the kings of the earth, not the Lord Jesus Christ. It was those who called themselves Christians, but who had abandoned the power of the Holy Spirit, in favor of the power of the state, that established the church of Rome.

You said-" There is no such thing as "blatant disregard" for the Scriptures within the Catholic Faith. There is a considerable body of people who think that their minds are smarter and their understanding more precise than that which was given directly to the apostles. We know, for instance, that St. Peter choose and taught one of the first martyrs of the 2nd century -- St. Ignatius. In his writings, it becomes quite clear that what Peter taught Ignatius is the Catholic Faith, and not Protestantism, nor especially the Adventist ideas.

The Protestants broke away because they were rebels and would not submit to the authority which Christ placed upon the earth."

There is blatant disregard for the scriptures by the church of Rome. Again you proceed to the writings of the supposed church Fathers for authority. This is an authority that I do not accept. I have the writings of Ignatius, whom I believe to be nothing more than an apostle Paul wannabe.
It is only right though, that you would accept his authority, for he was one of the first to begin establishing a non biblical exaltation of the Bishops. A false teaching that surely lead to the establishment of the church of Rome, who promotes this same teaching to the extreme, resulting in the establishment of the Pontiff of Rome.
Here are some quotes from Ignatius.

"Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the
house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."

I refuse to look upon any man, as I would the Lord Himself. Though some of the Apostles may have exhorted some to follow their example, they never told anyone to look upon them, as you were looking upon the Lord Himself.

"Now it becomes you also not to despise the age of your bishop, but to yield him all reverence,"

Again, attributing to a man, that which should reserved for God alone.

"It is becoming, therefore, that ye also should be obedient to your bishop, and contradict him in nothing; for it is a fearful thing to contradict any such person. For no one does [by such conduct] deceive him that is visible, but does [in reality] seek to mock Him that is invisible, who, however, cannot be mocked by any one."

The above alludes to the fact, that disagreeing with a Bishop, is the same as disagreeing with God. Nonsense. If this were true, then the Bishops would be so many God's themselves.

"It is fitting, then, not only to be called Christians, but to be so in reality. For it is not the being called so, but the being really so, that renders a man blessed. To those who indeed talk of the bishop, but do all things without him, will He who is the true and first Bishop, and the only High Priest by
nature, declare, "Why call ye Me Lord, and do not the things which I say?" For such persons seem to me not possessed of a good conscience,
but to be simply dissemblers and hypocrites."

According to the above, those who do not do what the Bishop tells them, are disobeying the Lord Himself. More nonsense.

"As therefore the Lord does nothing without the Father, for says He, "I can of mine own self do nothing," so do ye, neither presbyter, nor deacon, nor layman, do anything without the bishop. Nor let anything appear commendable to you which is destitute of his approval. For every such thing is sinful, and opposed [to the will of] God."

Now, you can do nothing without the Bishops permission. To do so is a sin against God. Total nonsense.

"Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for "he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God." Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died
for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop."

More of the same.

And do ye reverence them as Christ Jesus, of whose place they are the keepers, even as the bishop is the representative of the Father of all things, and the presbyters are the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles
of Christ. Apart from these there is no elect Church, no congregation of holy ones, no assembly of saints.

Again, telling us to reverence the Bishop, as Jesus Christ Himself. Then telling us that if the Bishop or presbyters are not present, then there is no "elect Church, or congregation of holy ones, or assembly of saints." This is an obvious reference to their superiority. Since their can be no holy congregation apart from them. If the above quotes from Ignatius, do not sound like the exaltation of the Bishopric to you, it is simply because you do not wish to believe it so.

Matt 18:20 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. AMEN


Matt 23:1-12 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Ignatius was surely one of the men that the apostle Paul spoke of when he said the following.

Acts 20:28-30 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

You said-"First of all, the Holy Spirit is a HE...the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity of God."

Agreed.

You said-" The promise that we shall all receive as believers the Holy Spirit is NOT the same as the promise of being infallibly led into all truth. The empirical evidence this is true is the vast number of conflicting assemblies who claim the Holy Spirit yet cannot even agree on doctrine. This is not found in the Catholic Faith. In the Catholic Faith there is unity of doctrine. What the Latin West believes is believed also by the Eastern Church and even by the Orthodox."

You are correct. However, the Catholic church is the original of these, because she does not agree with the scriptures.

Isa 8:20 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The scriptures themselves are the test for everyone who claims to have the Holy Spirit, including the church of Rome. Since she fails this test, I know she is not lead by the Holy Spirit of God.

You said-"Sorry. Hate to burst yer bubble, but if'n you read the writings of the time you are claiming, i.e., the apostolic times and the writings of the disciples who immediately followed them, you will find that their writings are entirely in agreement with the Catholic Faith."

That’s a big fat negative. As usual you add the writings of the disciples following the apostles to your proof of the above. I can only assume that you must do this because you need their writings, apart from the scriptures, to establish your argument, and church. I say again, the scriptures are sufficient for the establishment of Christ's church, as they testify themselves.

2 Tim 3:15-17 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

As this post is already getting very long, I will have to address the rest of your claims in another message. Regarding the covenants, and the establishment of the church as Spiritual Israel, I have much to say. I have written a book on that very subject, which I am sure would conflict with your beliefs. More in the next message.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Hello again CatholicConvert.
Back to our debate.

You said-"But beyond that, there is NUMEROUS verses which teach those things. For instance, the teaching of Christ on the Covenantal Kingdom in Matthew 21 which points directly to the establishment of the Church on earth to replace the nation of the Jews.

Or the performance of YOM KIPPUR in Heaven by the Lord in Hebrews 9 and 10. YOM KIPPUR is a corporate sacrifice made by a high priest only, and is for the covenantal nation, not the individual sins. Therefore, if Christ is in Heaven, offering YOM KIPPUR right now, then the Church simply cannot fail, for the Blood of Christ is the perfect and perpetual sacrifice for the nation which He established on earth.

You need to study typology and understand how these things tie together."

You are right, the church simply cannot fail. The church of Rome however, is not the church which cannot fail. It is not Christ's church, but the church of this world. The church of Rome does not accept the High Priestly ministry of Christ in heaven, but rather has established her own Priesthood. This is another subject altogether though. It will have to be addressed in another message. Now concerning the covenants and the establishment of the church.

The old and new covenants are different parts of the everlasting covenant. The old covenant is how God revealed the everlasting covenant to the world before Christ came and established it. The new covenant is how the everlasting covenant is revealed to the world in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, who himself has established the everlasting covenant through the offering of his life.

There was nothing wrong with the old covenant. Apart from the fact that it was meant to be replaced by the new covenant of Christ and him crucified. The old covenant was as good as it could get, prior to the first advent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and was set forth by God himself. Many claim that the problem with the old covenant was that it was based on mans obedience to the law. They often quote, " Exod 24:3 3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do." This was not the old covenant. This was the response that the children of Israel gave to God. God's everlasting covenant is built upon His promises, certainly not ours. It is faith in these promises that makes one a recipient of the blessings promised by God through His everlasting covenant. If God thought that the children of Israel were capable of fulfilling their promise to do all that the Lord had spoken, He would not have bothered setting up the sanctuary and it's services, where all Israel could obtain forgiveness for their sins. That is to say, their inability to do all the words that the Lord had spoken.

The Lord deeply impressed His law upon the minds of Israel. His moral law in particular. After all had been spoken to them, all Israel said with one voice, "All the words which the LORD hath said we will do." As the rest of the scriptures clearly point out, the children of Israel miserably failed in the covenant which they made with the Lord. God knew that they could not uphold their word to Him. The plan of salvation was the same then as it is today. God purposed that they should here and be deeply impressed with His holy law, and then be faced with the reality that in and of themselves they had no power to keep it. This is why the Lord impressed His law upon their minds before he set up and gave the ceremonial laws in respect to the sanctuary and its meditorial services. After realizing their true condition, the children of Israel were to understand that apart from the Lamb of God, and His shed blood on our behalf, there is no salvation, or power to live a righteous life.

The everlasting covenant has always been the same, it is based upon belief in God's promises. Above all, it is based upon belief in His promise for deliverance through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gen 17:1-9 "1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

This promised covenant was established by the Lord Jesus Christ, who was himself of the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a
merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

It is Christ who established the everlasting covenant promised by God through Abraham and his seed. It was Christ who made Abraham a father of many nations, ( Gen 17:4 ), when He established the promises of the old covenant, and by so doing brought about the new. This opened up the blessing that were given to Israel to all mankind. Israel has not lost it's status as the chosen people of God, this special blessing has been opened up to all of humanity through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one that all of the old covenant Jewish sacrifices and offerings pointed to. Now all who accept Him as their personal Savior are heirs of the kingdom and the very seed of Abraham. This was God's plan from the beginning. The old and new covenants, are two different phases of the everlasting covenant that was promised from the beginning. {Gen 18:18, Gen 22:17-18, Gen 26:4 }

ROM 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not
all Israel, which are of Israel:
ROM 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
ROM 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the
children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Christ came from the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All the children of Israel are of the seed of these fathers of Israel. However, as Paul points out, this does not automatically make them Israelites. It is the children of the promise that are counted for the seed, not the children of the flesh. Isaac was the child of promise. His birth was a miracle from God. This miracle was not for the sake of Abraham and Sarah, but for the blessing of all nations. For this reason, Abraham and Sarah must have had a child of their own. Not for their own sake, but because God had chosen Abraham and his descendants for this very purpose. Through them and their descendants (namely Christ) God intended to save the entire world. This is why those of the flesh are not counted for the seed, but only those of the promise. That is to say, those who have accepted the promise, in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. These are they that compose Israel, spiritual Israel.

Isaac was the child that God had promised to Abraham and Sarah. It is God's promise that we are talking about. Abraham believed God and this was counted to him as righteousness. "ROM 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Isaac was the miracle child of promise to Abraham and Sarah. Christ is the miracle child of promise to the entire world for the salvation of all. All who accept Christ as such are the children of the promise. They have believed God's promise through His Son, and it is counted unto them as righteousness. This is the everlasting covenant, which both the old and new covenants were meant to lead all to.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Shall we continue.
I have a bible. I will agree with what it teaches. It will be my guide.

"And you forgive me, but bluntly said....no it is not.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

You don't want any parts of this, yet Jesus Himself said that it is eternal life to eat His Flesh and dring His Blood."


CHAP. 2 THE FLESH AND BLOOD


John 6:53-58 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The next spiritual truth that we will examine is the Eucharist. The church of Rome contends that Christ was speaking of changing the bread and wine of the above verses, into the literal body, and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. She also contends that true believers must partake of this literal body and blood. Of course, the only ones that can perform this transubstantiation, are the priests of the church of Rome. In this way again, the church of Rome has sought to set herself up in a position of power and authority over all.

If indeed, bread and wine must be transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ, and only the priest's of Rome can perform this miracle, then all are dependent upon Rome for salvation. So now, Peter was handed special authority over the church of Christ, whom the Popes now represent. In this manner, a mere man has been put in between humanity and God. Now also, the priests in subjection to this man, have been given by him, the power to perform this miracle by which the true believer may partake of Christ unto salvation. Both of these claims to authority come to the church of Rome by the literalization of spiritual truths in the holy scriptures. They also both put mere men between humanity and God, a thing which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ came specifically to abolish. We will discuss this issue in more depth in following chapters.

Let us examine the spiritual truth of the above verses which is ignored by the church of Rome. After saying in verse fifty six, "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him", Christ goes on in the very next verse to explain what he had just said. " 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me " Are we to suppose from the above verses, that Christ was continually changing bread and wine into the literal body and blood of his Father, and eating him, so as to live by his Father? Of course not. We know that the Father lived within the Son through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which he gave to his son ( Jn. 1:32 ). This is why Christ came to earth, and became one of us. So that He could dwell within the believer through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God. This does not happen by ingesting the literal body and blood of Christ, but by faith in the son of God, and submission to his will. Observe the following scriptures.

John 17:17-23 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The Father was in Christ, and Christ was in him. This was not accomplished by Christ eating the literal flesh and blood of the Father. Likewise, Christ does not live in the believer by the ingestion of his literal flesh and blood. Christ was our example in all things, as the Father was in Christ, and Christ in Him, so are we to be in Christ, that the Father and Son might be in us. Verse seventeen points out how this takes place. True believers are sanctified through God's truth, His word is truth. It is by the ingestion, or taking in of God's word, that believers receive the Holy Spirit of God. This is a spiritual experience, not a literal one. However, it will have literal effects in your life, by conforming the believer into the likeness of the Father and Son, which is salvation.

Matt 4:4 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

We all eat food to live, but those who take in the word of God, and live by it, will live forever. This is how God dwells within the believer, not by eating and drinking some wine and bread that some claim to have changed into the body and blood of Christ. It requires no change of heart, or mind, to eat some bread, and drink some wine. On the other hand, it requires submission to God, to believe, and act upon his word. This can be accomplished only by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God, and it unquestionably changes the heart, and actions of the believer into the likeness of their Lord's. This spiritual truth is lost sight of, in the literal interpretation of Christ's words regarding the subject at hand.

John 14:15-21 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Those who love God will endeavor to keep his commandments. Only those who have made this choice, that is to allow Christ to rule in their lives, will receive the Spirit of truth. Without this Holy Spirit, it is impossible to serve God, or keep his commandments. The world cannot receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit comes by way of acceptance of, and submission to the word of God. This is why only true believers can enter into the experience that Christ is referring to when he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. By literalizing this truth, and making the act the mere ingestion of bread and wine, the church of Rome has set up a system, and a people who have only a form of godliness, denying the power thereof.

1 Cor 11:24-27 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

As Paul points out in the above verses, partaking of the bread and wine, is a reminder of the Lord's death on our behalf, till he comes again. This is exactly where all true believers begin, and maintain their walk with God, at the foot of the cross. It is by entering into Christ's death, the full submission and surrender of self, that Christ is enabled to live within us. Accepting Christ's death for us, not only in our place, but as our own death, that we make walk in newness of life, by the power of the Holy Spirit of God. This is what it means to eat the flesh, and drink the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To be in him at his death, that he might be in us in newness of life, his life, not our own. For Christ was obedient to the Father, even to the point of death, that we might die with him, in order to receive power to be obedient to the Father also. You in Christ, and Christ in you, the hope of glory. We will end this chapter with the following verses.

Rom 6:3-7 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Gal 3:27 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Col 1:26-27 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Continued
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

"You don't want any parts of this. St. Peter insists that baptism is for the remission of sins (i.e. takes away original sin).

You see, you don't want anything to do with the Bible when it contradicts your choosen ideas. The apostles were taught and did teach this very clearly. All you have to do to validate what I am saying is read the writings of the Early Fathers to see that they believed as I am positing -- the Real Presence and Baptismal Regeneration.

If the apostles were teaching something else, then you show me the EVIDENCE that these ideas existed in the second century. There is ample evidence of the Catholic Faith in the second century, as early as 113 AD. Where are the writings from the apostles disciples that show the Adventist position? They don't exist. They don't exist because it was not taught.

And now you have a real problem because the so called "Whore of Revelation" did not come into being, according to your teaching, for another 200 years.

Now what do you do? How shall you twist the facts to protect yourself now>?"

You will have to explain this original sin thing to me in more detail before I will attempt to answer it.

Again I will not validate anything with your early church Fathers. You are the one who needs their writings to support what you believe. I do not. As I have already pointed out, and as the scriptures themselves testify, the scriptures alone are sufficient.
The apostasy that lead to the establishment of the Whore of Revelation took place slowly over many years. The fact that you can show that some of your early church Fathers began leaving the true faith, and establishing another shortly after the time of the apostles, does not prove the existence of the fully established church of Rome. One thing is for sure, the Whore of the book of Revelation, is an apostate church that has relations with the kings of the earth. No other religion in this world has had, or is currently more involved with the kings of the earth, than the church of Rome.


11 THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL


John 16:5-15 5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The power of the gospel message, and therefore, of the church, is the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. It is the Holy Spirit that leads and guides the church into all truth, and it is the Holy Spirit that glorifies Christ in and through his followers. People and institutions can accomplish nothing for the glory of God, apart from the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a result of conversion. Conversion comes only by way of conviction. Conviction comes by the reasoning power of the Holy Spirit, enlightening the mind to a knowledge of the word of God.

Isa 1:18 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Ezek 33:11 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Every one must choose for themselves to accept, or reject the gospel message. The Lord Jesus Christ preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. He never used any other power than that of the Holy Spirit. This is because the gospel of the kingdom of God, is exactly that, a thing that is completely separate from the things, and powers of this world. It is a message that calls those who here it out of this world, to be citizens of the kingdom to come. Those who accept the message, must also accept the method of spreading it that God has ordained, which has nothing to do with the things of this world.

Mark 1:14-15 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matt 24:14 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 16:15-16 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

God's people are instructed to preach this gospel of the kingdom in all the world. It is not until this is done, that the end will come, and Jesus will return. This gospel of the kingdom of God has been being preached in the world for nearly two thousand years now. Yet it still has not been preached in all the world. If the gospel continued to go forward in the power of the Holy Spirit, as rapidly as it did during the days of Jesus and the apostles, surely the end would have come already. The fact that this thing has not yet been accomplished, is a sure sign that something has gone wrong with the gospel message, or those who have been giving it. The question is, what has gone wrong? What did Christ and his apostles do, that has been changed or tampered with, that has hindered the spreading of the gospel message?

John 5:30-37 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 8:28-29 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 15:4-10 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus said that he could do nothing of his own self, but only the will of his Father. Christ did only those things which were pleasing to his Father, and these things he did through the power of the Holy Spirit. In like manner, Christ tells us that we can do nothing of our own selves, but only as we abide in him, that he might abide in us. This to, is accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit. In order for Christ's followers to bear much fruit in the preaching of the gospel, they must use nothing of themselves, or the powers of this world, but only the power of God and his kingdom. The things of this world cannot be successfully employed in the service of the kingdom of God, which is not of this world.

John 18:36 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Even when Christ was going to be crucified, he would not use the methods or powers of this world to deliver himself from the cross. This is only right, since he came into this world for the very purpose of being crucified, which thing in and of itself, is not of this world. Christ completely sacrificed himself, and his own will, to that of his Father in heaven. The true follower of Christ will do the same. As soon as an individual, or corporate body of Christians, seeks to preserve or uplift itself, it has lost its power and connection with Christ. The only way to follow Christ is by way of the cross. The sacrifice self to the will of God, is the salvation of humanity. This is what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did. This is what his true followers must also do, completely separate from the powers of this world, if they wish to finish the gospel commission.

The Devil is the father of all in this world who have not accepted their own death in Christ. Satan is the one who wished to exalt himself to the position of God. This is the mind set of this world, that is, self exaltation. Those who choose to follow Christ, have chosen the exaltation of God, through his Son Jesus Christ, over the exaltation of self. These two mind sets are completely opposed to each other, and cannot coexist together. Self exaltation, or preservation if you will, will always compromise selflessness. For this reason, the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit alone, is the power of the gospel unto salvation. For the Holy Spirit is indeed God, and completely separate from the things, and mind set of this world.

So we see, that the kingdom of God, and the kingdoms of this world must always remain separate. If those who say they are Christ's, begin to depend in any way upon the powers of this world for spreading the gospel, they will only compromise the message, and make it of none effect. This very thing is in fact what has retarded the work of God in the earth. It has hindered the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to the extent, that after two thousand years, the work is still far from done. This of course was a plan begun, and executed by the devil himself. Completed through those who claimed to be Christians, but were only wolves in sheep clothing. When a Christian becomes like the world around them, they are no longer a witness for Christ. Just so, when the church becomes like the world around it, it cannot fulfill it's calling. The individual Christian, and the corporate body of the church, must remain separate from the world if they are to fulfill their commission.

John 17:14-23 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Though the Lord Jesus Christ was in this world as a man, yet he was not of this world. So it is with His followers, and the true church. Christ's kingdom in this world, and the kingdoms of this world are, and must ever be, completely separate entities. If, or when they become combined, then the church is no longer Christ's.

This very thing is what the church of Rome has established in the world. This very thing is what the church of Rome is, in this world. She is the mother of all the churches that have become a part of this world. For she was the first "Christian" institution to accept the favor of this world on her behalf, in order to establish her power in this world. Or should it be said that she is the result of the first apostate Christians who sought after the powers of this world, over the power of the Holy Spirit for their establishment.

In any case, she is, and ever has been, hopelessly entangled with the politics and powers of this world. Preferring relationship with, and desiring the cooperation of the kings and governments of this world, over a relationship with and dependence upon the power of the Holy Spirit of God. As such, and in the name of Christ, she separates humanity from their God. Preventing the gospel message from going forth in the power of the Holy Spirit. She began a relationship between the church, and the state, that will last until Christ returns and ends all powers other than his own.
Once the Christian church, through the church of Rome, became entangled with the kings and governments of this world, she lost her power to save through the spreading of the gospel. By choosing the power of the state, over the power of the Holy Spirit, the church of Rome became the enemy of all who would truly follow Christ. The mind set of this world is self exaltation. When the church put itself in the place of power in this world, all those seeking power in this world flocked to her. This they did in order to have power, for their own exaltation, a mind set completely opposed to that of the true gospel message. This is why the church of Christ must remain completely separate from the powers of this world in order to fulfill her commission. By maintaining a complete separation from this world, and depending only upon the power of the Holy Spirit, the church is able to confirm the mystery of godliness.(1Tim 3:16) However, when she becomes involved with the powers of this world, she is entangled with the mystery of iniquity.
(2Tim 2:3-14)

Rev 17:1-6 1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

The church of Rome is verily, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. For she is that institution which first, while claiming to be Christian, sought after, and acquired the power of the state. By committing fornication with the kings of the earth, she used the power of the state to enforce her dogmas, and persecute those who would not pay her homage. The blood of countless millions of the saints will testify to this fact in the judgment. Nor has she abandoned her quest for political power in this world. For she is every day advancing her political ties on a global scale. By doing so, she is bringing the world toward it's final crisis, a moment of decision described in the book of Revelation chapter thirteen.

When the church of Rome became a religio-political entity, she delivered a decisive blow to the spreading of the gospel message in the world. Having become the established church, through the power of the state, she compromised her ability to spread the gospel. As the established church, she persecuted those who did not bow to her authority. This included of course, the true followers of Christ, who were still giving the gospel message to the world. In this way, the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was impeded for well over a thousand years. Once this monster, or beast if you will, was created, it took nothing short of an act of God to reverse the damage which had been done.

The Protestant reformation was the movement brought about by God himself, to reverse that which the church of Rome had established. Certain individuals who had access to the scriptures began to notice how far from their teachings the church of Rome had deviated. These individuals, not understanding the true nature of this beast, tried at first to reform the institution. The result, of course, was the command from the church to put them to death. Eventually many of these reformers gathered great followings, and demanded their freedom, breaking away from the church of Rome. However, these churches still did not understand the concept of separation of church and state. Most of them followed the example of Rome, and became the established church of the countries they were the majority in. In turn, they also persecuted those who differed from their established beliefs, including of course, Roman Catholics.

These reformations continued for many centuries. Protestants breaking away from the church of Rome, and from other Protestants. It was not until the establishment of the government of the new world, that the quest of the Protestant reformation for freedom of worship, reached it's maturity. By establishing, and maintaining a separation of church and state, the government of the United States of America ensured religious freedom to all it's citizens. Though the governments and kingdoms of this world are altogether a separate thing from the kingdom of God here on earth, the establishment of this law, made the United States the most Christ like form of government in this world. This is rightly so, since the effect of this law is to keep the government of this world completely separate from religion. Christianity therefore, in this country, must rely on the power of the Holy Spirit for the spreading of the gospel, for it cannot use the power of the state to do so. For this reason, this nation has been greatly blessed by God, above the other nations of the earth.

As always, history repeats itself. Although the U.S. has been blessed by God because of it's separation of church and state, the wall between the two is quickly eroding. An ever growing number of Protestant churches, having lost the power of the Holy Spirit, through the rejection of the truths in God's word, are seeking to replace that power with the power of the state. Of course the church of Rome, who's political power and influence is ever growing in the U.S., is ever ready to help in the establishment of a religio-political form of government to further her ends. Many Protestants are joining hands with the church of Rome for this very purpose. Even the president of the U.S. is taking steps in this direction.

As previously stated, the church of Rome is the mother of the, "Christian", religio-political allegiance. Who's purpose it is, to separate humanity from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In this instants, by entangling Christianity with the politics of this world, crippling the gospel message, and destroying it's power to save. Nevertheless, God's message will go forward. The greater the power of this beast becomes, the more pointed the testimony of the gospel will become. As the enemy unfolds his strategy, the power of the Holy Spirit will reveal his workings through the true church of Christ.

Rev 18: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Keith,

For those of us with limited time, could you provide an "executive summary" of those three posts?

Thanks,

Mark

 

More along the same lines.

Jer 3:8-9 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

Ezek 16:14-15 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Ezek 16:28-29 28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.
29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Hosea 4:15 15 Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

During the old covenant, the Lord referred to the nation of Israel as a harlot when she had illicit relationships with her surrounding nations, and their gods. So also, in the new covenant, those who called themselves Christians, but had illicit relationships with the kings of the earth, and their gods are playing the harlot. The Church of Rome is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, because she was the first " Christian " institution to apostatize and have relations with the kings of the earth, mixing pagan practices and worship with Christianity. This policy she also continues today, thus she is ever present at the UN and has ambassadors from virtually every nation tending to her.

Rev 17:1-2 1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17:5 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

63. Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism - the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal religion was created. 64. Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." - Milman. 65. The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( THE GREAT EMPIRES OF PROPHECY A. T. Jones )

Constantine brought Sun worshipers, and Christians together, forming a new religion of the two. Although he claimed to become a Christian, he did so for the above purpose, and never claimed to abandon the worship of the sun. The result being the formation of the Church of Rome, and the exaltation of the day of the Sun as the Christian Sabbath.

"In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday. Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title, Dies Solis, familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians." - Schaff.

"The same tenacious adherence to the ancient god of light has left its trace, even to our own time, on one of the most sacred and universal of Christian institutions. The retention of the old pagan name of "Dies Solis,' or 'Sunday,' for the weekly Christian festival, is in great measure owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, pagan and Christian alike, as the 'venerable day of the sun.'... It was his mode of harmonizing the discordant religions of the empire under one common institution." - Stanley.

Accordingly, now "his coins bore on the one side the letters of the name of Christ, on the other the figure of the sun-god, and the inscription, 'Sol
invictus' (the unconquerable sun), as if he could not bear to relinquish the
patronage of the bright luminary which represented to him, as to Augustus
and to Julian, his own guardian deity." - Stanley.

The Church of Rome is a political organization. She is that apostate form of Christianity which first forsook the power of the Holy Spirit, in favor of the power of the state, for the furtherance of her goals. These things she accomplished by having adulterous relations with the kings of the earth. She is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, and as such, of course she has children. Those Protestant denominations which broke away from her, but also leaned on the power of the state to enforce their dogmas, were acting the part of her daughters. It was not until the establishment of the USA, that many Protestant denominations fully broke away from the Romish idea of combining church and state.

"In order to avoid wars and persecutions over religion, the founders of the United States tried a bold experiment. They allowed FREEDOM OF RELIGION by separating church from state, so that one could be a full member of civil society without having to belong to a particular church. Colonies that had established churches gradually ended that practice so that churches were no longer built by the state, nor were their ministers paid by the state. Churches began to rely on the voluntary contributions of their members, which resulted in more vigorous churches." (Groliers)

Any Christian denomination that wants to use the power of the state to enforce or further it's goals, is a daughter of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots. She is the originator of this mind set. Rome, in it's pagan, and papal form, is the fourth metal, and beast of the book of Daniel chapters four, and seven. As the scriptures point out, she will be with us until Christ returns, destroying the kingdoms of this earth and setting up His literal and everlasting kingdom in this world.

Dan 2:33-35 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Rome is rising again, and many Protestant churches are returning to their Mother. These things must happen before Christ returns. The second beast of Revelation will be formed when the worlds religions, headed by the Church of Rome, once again unite with the state on a worldwide basis and use the state to enforce their dogma. This dogma will be the forced worship spoken of in the book of Rev. Chap. thirteen. There is much to say regarding this matter, perhaps more later. I leave you with the following quote.

When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror. The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome. Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art. When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind. May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from theri beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

The end

You said-"I'm your brother? I thought that I simply could not be, seeing that I belong to the religion of the Whore of the Revelation. Well, this is news to me.

I believe it is the word of God, and that God himself wants me to understand it.

I have been studying it for 25 years. Line upon line, precept upon precept, slowly but surely it led me backwards to the Faith which was given to the apostles and exists in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

That’s why he gave it to me, and anyone else who treasures it in their heart.

If you come to understand the covenant of God, you will "see" the Faith Catholic. That is what happened to me. The covenant of God is the key to understanding the Catholic Faith.

Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed "

Yes Ed you are my brother. Everyone is my brother or sister. If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't be wasting all this time trying to share what I believe to be the truth with you. I can do nothing else.

What a coincidence, I have been studying it for the same, 25 years. Line upon Line, precept upon precept. It seems that we have had very different results though.

As I stated before brother, I have written a book on this very subject. It seems though, that my study of the scriptures has lead me to a very different understanding of God's covenant, and the establishment of his church here on earth. Perhaps you could refer me to a book or place that expresses your understanding of these things, and I will check it out. If you are at all interested in my book, I would be glad to send you a copy via e-mail.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith