Did God create evil?

Good try trust in the lord,

one allegorical statement that mentions stars that could even mean humans or maybe even specifically

the legalistic jewish bunch.
(representing carnal law)

(anyway even if they were remotely demons..could they have been created evil?..with no choice in the matter.)

and satan and his demons are still residing in heaven.
even though we read rev 12:7 stating they were cast down to earth.

what is actually "cast out" is their demonic position of power in the overcomers life.
whenever they recognize "Jesus is their Lord" and Satan no longer retain power over the overcomers life. (also see 1 John 2:13-14)

rev 12:10-12

or else why are we forward looking to a "new heaven"....

Me2

 

"If God didn't create evil then he wouldn't know everything about it, and then He wouldn't be God!"

This doesn't work. For it implies that at one point God was not God, that is before evil was created. It also implies that if there is something currently that God has not created he is not currently God who is all knowing. It lessens who God is. God does not have to create something to know all about it for he sees all of history (including the future) as if it is today. Therefore, he knows what evil is without having created it.

Blessings

 

Yes - Rev 12 is a good example. So also is Ezek 28:15 as already noted.

So also is 2Peter 2:4 talking about God not sparing "angels WHEN they SINNED".

In Christ,

Bob

 

I meant if God wasn't the one to create evil, not if he hadn't!!!

 

Hi bob,

Got a serious problem with 2 pet 2:4
as well as jude 14-16

both of these ideas within the scriptures were lifted from the writings of the book of enoch.

which concerned angels having committed sexual acts with human beings and creating an avalanch of evil consequences upon the earth. and afterwards being punished for such. and also a futuristic end time battle.

And one wonders why the book of enoch wasnt in our bible....

why would God allow these ideas to remain within scripture ?
Unless the statements are to be taken allegorically…

Has anybody run across this same problem of not understanding why God allowed
these ideas to remain ?

Me2

 

ME2 - you assume too much.

It would be like "assuming" that all the Gospel writers were stealing from a single source - that they themselves had no inspirational value other than copying from another source.

There is in fact no scripture (not Jude and not 2Peter 2) that speaks of Angels having sex.

Furthermore in Matt 21 - Christ makes it clear that from a biological point of view - as beings - they were not "CREATED" with that ability. No families, no marriage, no baby angels.

The manufacturer (God) is stating that He did not MAKE them with that feature.

And no text argues that they DO have the ability to form families, marry, have children, pro-create etc.

When Jude quotes from the book of Enoch he does not reference that teaching - and we do not have copies of the version that he quoted from in the first century. Nor do we have a promise from God about non-scriptural books that HE would PRESERVE their text with integrity over the centuries.

For all we know - the book of Enoch is ITSELf copying from an authentic tradition about the teachings of Enoch prior to that time. (They may not have even used writing in Enoch's day due to the characteristics of humanity at that time). That means that the traditions from Enoch were correct but that added mythology inserted into the Pseudopigraphal book of Enoch (that recorded some of that tradition while adding new elements of its own) was not.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In SIX days "the LORD created the Heavens and the Earth and all that is in them" Exodus 20:8-11. So that means mankind, air, plants and animals were created along with water.

But God used the WATER to destroy plants and animals on land. They became oil under pressure and time. Man discovered the oild and made gasoline to run cars. God did not "create Cars" but the elements were there so that a chain of events and the free will choices of intelligent created beings resulted in the choice to create cars that run on gasoline.

Lucifer CHOSE to sin.

In Christ,

Bob

 

seriously Bob,

who created who ?

everything is of God. He is RESPONSIBLE for every decision made. every action committed.
Everything...every breath. every thought

Satan was created to Be Mans ultimate Fall-Guy.
Every evil action, thought, idea of man in the end will be concluded.
"the devil made me do it".

the spirit of man was always intended to be a byproduct of the knowledge of Gods Good and evil.
the difference being. will man take of the things of God or will man rely on God to Give.

like adam. did he take of the fruit of the tree or did God give hime the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil. either way. he was destined to get it.

just like the mosaic law. man couldnt follow it. he was cursed. yet he took it and still tried to follow it. Christ gives us our new spirit and low and behold. the very attitude of the spirit is the law. some believers dont even know of the letter of the law but they still follow its precepts. its the natural inclination of their new spirit.
to receive the law written on their hearts. what do they do. they rest. and let the spirit be in control of their will.

how do they defeat the devil. they rest. they stop taking from God and receive of God freely. in this case. a new education of who and what evil is and its ultimate goal within God love for his creation.
its not following rules. its learning why about the conditions that exist.

independent yet interdependent. we have a "feeling" of free will but within our new family yet when viewing the LIMITED amount of choices available. we find out we do not have unlimited free will.

God controls all. Knows all

and yes, he invented cars. and gas and satan
oh yea...He invented everything..
even your very thoughts right now.
good and evil. its God who sets the parameters.

Trust in the Lord, dont you think if Satan sinned before adam. that Gods creation would be already cursed ? and God call that "Good".?

sin and evil didnt exist in this physical or spiritual worlds before ADAMS choice.

[ May 03, 2003, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

Evil is not a chemical in the air.

Lucifer "chose to sin" but no THING and no ONE "made him do it".

By "definition" of CHOICE between two courses of action IF one is WRONG - it is WRONG.

Your idea that you only CHOOSE a wrong course of action "pride in HIMSELF in this case" - IF someone makes you do it - is false.

Lucifer had power and perfection - he COULD CHOOSE right and wrong - just as Adam "could".

But God did not "create pride in self". Every sin is simply an abuse of a PURE value/element that God created. Lucifer WAS GIVEN the ability to have pride in God, pride in seeing the cause of Good exaulted and promoted. God - given pride.

God's Word states that pride in God IS approved.

But to "abuse" that gift - is a "choice" that anyone can make.

No one is required to "make them" choose error.

God did not "create evil".

He created gifts and priviledges, beauty and power. But with priviledge comes responsibility to CHOOSE right action and the POSSIBILITY in a free will system - to choose wrong.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I meant if God wasn't the one to create evil, not if he hadn't!!! </font>[/QUOTE]Your sentence is rather unclear as it comes across as saying that there was a time when God did not know evil. But I would have to say that evil is not created. The verse above that some as quoted as "God created evil" is translated in most versions as something like "God is the cause calamity". Evil is not material and so it is not really created but allowed. His creation is capable of it. It is not his will when it happens and so we cannot hold him responsible for it, though it frustrates satan by bringing about God's will.

Another point to make is that God does not have to create or do to know. An example is Nineveh. God said in three days it would be destroyed. Yet it was not. Contradiction? Nope. God spoke based on the path that the people were headed down. He knows all paths and as long as they were headed down the path of destrution it was true that they would be destroyed. But as we know they repented by his grace. Praise God. The point is that God can know things without actually ever doing them, therefore he could have known evil had he never allowed it.


Blessings.

[ May 04, 2003, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

"Me2: everything is of God. He is RESPONSIBLE for every decision made. every action committed.
Everything...every breath. every thought"

What was that 60's song. "I'm a puppet". God is responsible for it only in that he created all the peieces and allows it to happen. For it says:


James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

Can't believe I'm on the same side as Bob Ryan on this thread. Unbelievable.

God bless.

 

Thessalonian,

Thats funny..and are you also following all of E.G White "Prophecies" and doctrines?

like the one of "satan being the scapegoat that takes all sin into the wilderness". and not jesus. hhmmm..


we do have satan as our scapregoats "for sure"..like a bunch of little kids looking for an excuse for what they do. thats Gods way of allowing us to ignorantly think.

An adult viewpoint is that God loves us so much that HE would actually die for us and cover all sin with His own blood...the real alternative grownup viewpoint.

whatever floats your boat.

and God doesnt have to take responsibility for anything..anothers childish misnomer.

God's Love for his creation expresses itself in taking reponsibilty". even though it doesnt appear to be his..or his fault.

much like a parent giving birth to a handicapped child. its not guilt that a parent "reaches down to his child"..its Love.

God set the parameters of Life. not you or I.
and if all wrongs are righted in the end of life. whats to say it wasnt intended to be that method all along. (ie, God is All in All).

think about the worldwide flood. the entire earth was designed to collapse upon itself to create the catastrophy. planned before it creation. even before the "fall" of man.
Was it adams fault that gazillions of stars start burning into cinders. or black holes start to swallowing up entire galaxies.
or did he create flesh eating diseases or plagues.

evil was to be a designed part of this creation and an event was to be the first "domino" to fall.

Remember God set the senerio up.

So Adam "became responsible". thats mans ego getting just a little to big for itself.

why cant you just let God Love his universe and be able to take a little credit for its outcome. Faith states that the outcome of within God's Plans are that all evil is covered. sin is totally eradicated and all that is Good remains.

Why not Try resting in that and just watch his plans unfold.

or you should check out all of E.G. White's beliefs, so you dont miss anything she recommends to believe.

Me2

 

Answer his scripture reference, Me2; not your personal belief about the subject.

 

we could go round and round on this subject.

what did God create ? what did satan create ?
what has man created ?

Gods in total control. every aspect.
will you question God methods..I say Go for it. But I'll also add..you'll look like a fool everytime...Its his way or the Highway.....

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

Deu 6:14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which [are] round about you;
Deu 6:15 (For the LORD thy God [is] a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
Deu 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted [him] in Massah.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue [that] shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This [is] the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness [is] of me, saith the LORD.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

bottom line is that He's God. His Game. His rules.
He will win everytime. even, if he creates a fall Guy to blame every evil act on. He even controls satans every activity..go figure.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

He set up adam. He allows mankind to use the excuse that its mans fault..one man representing all.

I dont like it but I didnt have a choice being born under the curse.
but its the only Game in town...

oh, by the way whats your opinion of the thread "Did God create Evil" Don?.

Me2

 

"Thats funny..and are you also following all of E.G White "Prophecies" and doctrines?
"

Now why on earth would I agree with Ellen G.. She is a false prophetus though she may have accidently got one or two things right like Bob. Bob found an acorn that's all. Everybody does it once in a while. You may even some day. Now if God is not responsible for our temptation how can he be responsible for the evil we do. Something your post did not deal with in any sort of a direct fashion. I have no problem with my position. Why is it so neccessary for you to convert me to yours? Are you some prophet that I must follow to attain eternal life? Your viewpoint has no historical precedent. It is not of Apostolic tradition carried on by the Catholic Church so I can reject it with no problem in my conscience. You however must continue to be "blown about by every wind of doctine" that your mind conjures up.

God bless.

[ May 04, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

ME2 - having failed to make your point from scripture you resort to ad hominem

Why obfuscate and bluster when you can simply answer the points given. Thess did not appeal to any statement by Ellen White - nor did I.

NOR does the doctrine regarding the scapegoat in Lev 16 do anything to make your case about God "creating Evil".

Why not just address the points raised?

Are you out of answers so soon?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

God is infinite...
Everything exists within God.
Nothing exists unless God wills it to Be.

God does not change.
From eternity past to eternity future.
like His knowledge of Good and Evil.

Both have always existed within the mind of God. As God chooses when necessary, His thoughts become materialized.
For his Glory.

just as you choose to manifest your thoughts of Good and evil into a material form.