of Grace or works?

I agree and he went on to say "being born of water and spirit." He is specifically referring to Baptism, why do you leave off part of the text? The part that says "being born of water and spirit?" That is what Jesus said was being born again, baptism.

I agree, now show me the bible's definition of what it means to believe? That is too general of a statement to make, Jesus said one must believe but he did not say that was "all" a person had to do.

"Thy house" can mean bring your children to Christ through baptism, it can be a support for infant baptism. Again what does it mean to "believe," what does the bible say it means?

Okay, now reconcile that with all the texts that Jesus says that we have to be baptized, we have to eat his flesh, we have to follow his commands etc...

I find it strange that a sola scriptoria believer would disregard all the many, many, texts in order to fit this single text in to a theology. It is clear that the text is being made to fit a theology, instead of the theology being based on the text. This text is not specific in saying anything but a general confession and belief that Jesus Christ is lord and that we all need him in order to have eternal life, something I do not disagree with but it is not a specific instruction on what one has to do in order to be saved.

This text does not translate " all you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and you'll be saved." Certainly not, especially after, you Finnish reading the rest of Romans and the gospels in which it clearly states that we have a lot more that just saying a pray that is not even biblical and "believing", which the bible does not define what "believing" is in order to be saved. We are not saved by works, we are saved by grace and reciting the sinner’s prayer that is not biblical in nature does not save anyone.

And where is the scripture explaining what "call on the lord" initials? Again, how does this fit in with feed the poor, clothe the naked, and let your light shine among men so they will see your works and glorify God in heaven?

"Amen, Amen, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man you have no life in you... my flesh is true food indeed and my blood is true drink...who ever eats my body and drinks my blood has life in him and I will raise him on the last day."

Okay...are we suppose to ignore this (??) which could not be any more specific and believe a general non specific text that is open for interpretation?

What does it mean to "hear his word?" What is his word? Could it mean that he who hears his word and believes that he is God's son are the ones that keep his commands and believe him when he said that we have to eat his flesh in order to have life?

I ask again where in any of the text that you provided does it say "all" you have to do is say the sinner's prayer and you are saved?

 

Verse 3 says you must be born again.
Verse 5 says you must be born of water and of the Spirit. Nowhere in this passage is the word baptism used; in fact it is not used in the entire chapter. To suggest that "water" here refers to baptism is to do injustice to this passage of Scripture. H2O does not always refer to baptism.

Apparently you just want to deny Scripture. Believe means to believe. Only believe. Believe plus nothing. No works. Faith alone. Study Eph.2:8,9.

And just as likely "thy house" can mean a family full of grandmas and grandpas, uncles and aunts, with no one under fifty. Don't read into Scripture that which is not there.

What has that got to do with Romans 10:9, confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believing in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead? The answer--Nothing!

[QUOTE}I find it strange that a sola scritoria believer would disregard all the many, many, texts in order to fit this single text in to a theology. It is clear that the text is being made to fit a theology, instead of the theology being based on the text. This text is not specific in saying anything but a general confession and belief that Jesus Christ is lord and that we all need him in order to have eternal life, something I do not disagree with but it is not a specific instruction on what one has to do in order to be saved.</font>[/QUOTE]Check the context of the entire chapter. The text is not taken out of its context. What is taken out of context is Roman Catholic theology which has no Biblical context or foundation at all.

There is nothing more to do than to believe on His name. You read the rest of the Bible for yourself.

 

But are you not also adding to it by saying you can not believe anything in addition?

I would say that you believe things in addition, but simply will not acknowledge it.

Do you not sometimes form an opinion as to whether someone else is or is not saved based upon their behavior? Isn't this requirement of a change in behaviors an addition to belief alone?

If a drunk believes but continues to drink heavily, is he saved?

 

Defender, in discussing John 3:3 you said that DHK left out the "context" verse. But-- you did the same thing. As I see it there are 4 verses stuck together that need to be read together.

3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I don't have time to go into great detail but read the four verses together. This is a discussion of physical birth and spiritual birth. The physical womb is introduced and Jesus uses the word "water" to represent it and then assures us of what he means in the next verse by the word "flesh". The word Spirit, which is capitalized, represents a new birth, one that is strickly in the spiritual realm. One physical birth to enter the world and a spiritual birth to enter Heaven. Anyway, that is the context that 3:3 must be seen in. Old N. and Jesus were having a conversation and you want to think that Jesus would speak in tricky language. He saved the tricky stuff for parables. In one on one conversation he spoke more plainly. Had he meant Baptism, most assuredly he would have said Baptism. Let the words of Jesus be as they are, in light of the situation he was in when he said them.

Ron, Jesus decides who is saved not me or DHK. Fruit follows salvation. Christians start out as babies, that is clear in scripture. The "drunk" as you say will stop drinking as he grows in Christ, that is basically a certainty. If he never grows he was never "born again" as growth is not an option physically or spiritually. Rate of growth is very different and an individual thing.

Anyway, Hope you are well over there in Michigan!!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

Hi, Brian. You just made my point. You are saying it's faith plus growth. Faith plus something else.

It seems that "faith alone" is an abstract concept - not really the reality.

Things in Michigan are great. I just can't seem to get up north as much as I would like.

Ron

 

Ron writes:
""Hi, Brian. You just made my point.""

Oh man, I hate when I do that

Actually, I see what you are saying but I think you are missing a critical point. If the salvation is real, i.e the person really does repent and trust the death and ressurection of Christ, as payment for his sins, then it (salvation, that is) happens at that moment. The works will result, with growth, and prove to the world the person is saved. God sees the heart not the works. Ron, you seem to be saying that the salvation isn't assured until the person "proves" it to God by doing works. this is in conflict with the teaching in the book of James. I hope I made that difference clear enough.

Have a great day!!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

I believe that when a person talks about the "sinner's prayer," he is referring to a SINNER that prays for forgiveness and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's not hard my friend. The Bible says, "Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Believe what God's word says about yourself, Romans 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

So what's the big deal about sin, Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death;... Wages means payment, so therefore the payment for your sin is death. There is good news my friend, God paid that payment for you with His Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. That's right, we can live through him, Jesus Christ. How? Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. This is all we have to do, believe that Jesus paid our sin debt on the cross of Calvary.

This is one way I like to see it. Jesus took all of my sins, paid for them, and then shoved the paid in full receipt down the devils throat.

The debt has already been paid for you. All you have to do is believe it. Take God at His word.

 

And who says I don't? How can you say that I don't just because I so happen to be a Catholic?

But that's not what I am asking, what I am asking is what are we supposed to do with all the left over scriptures that does not equal up to what you are saying?

It is simple and I can not understand why my question keeps being ignored, where does Jesus say " all you have to do is believe?"

 

Posted by Defenderofthefaith:

Being born again speaks of a new birth, being saved by trusting God's Spirit to enter your life and make you a new creature. It has nothing to do with baptism. It is a spiritual birth. Look at John 1:

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--verse 13: which were born of God. There is no mention of baptism here. How is one born of God? Look at verse 12: "As many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." Believe on the name of Christ. Receive Christ as your Saviour. And then you will be born again.

The concept of the trinity is taught throughout the Bible; therefore we believe it. The concept of baptism in John 3 is not taught at all; therefore we do not believe it. Nowhere is taught in Scripture that water has the magical power to wash away sins. What makes you think that either Jesus or Nicodemus would be thinking about baptism at this point in their conversation. They were both Jews. Baptism was never in the conversation to begin with, never mentioned at all. You are the one trying to force the concept of baptism into this conversation. The chapter has 36 verses. Where is baptism mentioned? Three times Jesus says you must be born again; not once does he say you must be baptized. The two are not the same. 1Pet.1:23 says that one is born again by the Word of God. Here it is says that we are born again by the Spirit of God. God uses His Spirit and His Word, and only those two agencies in the new birth. Baptism has no part in the new birth.
DHK

 

Hi Defender,

If possible please respond to my previous posts that were directed to you. Thanks so much!

In Christ,
Brian

 

And who says I don't? How can you say that I don't just because I so happen to be a Catholic?

But that's not what I am asking, what I am asking is what are we supposed to do with all the left over scriptures that does not equal up to what you are saying?

It is simple and I can not understand why my question keeps being ignored, where does Jesus say " all you have to do is believe?"</font>[/QUOTE]Please tell me what verses you are talking about? If the word all is going to stop you from believeing, then all I can do is pray for ya.

 

Brian,

As soon as I get some extra time, I promises I will answer you.

 

Agreed, and what I asked was what does it mean to be born again? What does the bible say being born again means?

And the answer is, no he can not.

So there is your connection. No, he can not be born again in a literal sense but only through the waters of baptism in which the water is a symbol of being made clean and the spirit is what is infused in our souls upon receiving the sacrament. So unless he is born of both water and spirit, he can not see the kingdom.

Yeah so…What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit, so how does this disprove baptism?

No, that is not correct. Jesus said being born of water and spirit meaning together not separate.

~These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.~
You can read the whole article.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp

Parables is when he was explaining what the apostles and the followers did not understand not what was tricky.

And speaking of tricky…why did those believers leave Jesus if Jesus was talking figurative and not literal in John 6? By your own accord you say that when Jesus spoke tricky he spoke in a parable. John 6 I not a parable. Don’t you think if he didn’t mean flesh IS flesh, he would have said to the crowd that he was only talking tricky, and asked them to come back? Do you really think he would have let 5000 go back to their former way of life because he was talking tricky?

Besides, Nicodemus didn’t understand, the text even says that he didn’t… “Do not be amazed that I told you, 'You must be born from above.' The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Nicodemus answered and said to him, "How can this happen?" Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this? Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

Sure as long as you do the same in John 6… okay???

 

Great work DHK!! Thank you once again for your insight.

In Christ,
Brian