"Biblical Authority"

What you cite looks to me as if you are intending to address the issue of "legalism", rather than authority of the scriptures.

It is through the scriptures that we have been given whatever authority is given to us. We do not arrive in this life with an owner's mannual attached to the umbilical chord.

It is not a matter of do this, don't do that! But more of "by what authority" do you do this or you don't do that?

The Scriptures do grant authority for a wide variety of conduct while denying authority for a narrower scope of conduct. For example: Sin. The scriptures do not give us authority to sin. We sin because of our nature. Therefore the Scriptures deny us the authority to sin. Taking away all excuses that man could use in our defense before the throne of God.

Example: Choice. The scriptures reveal and therefore grant authority for man to choose to believe in God, Jesus His son, and the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures provide all the reasons one would ever need to do so, while denying all excuses to NOT do so.

There are many "prohibitions" contained in scripture, but every Prohibition given is an example of the Authority God grants us to do the opposite of what is prohibited.

 

Biblical authority is provided by a declarative statement, an example, or implication of language. This is how all language works. It is God who chose to use this method for authority. John 12:48.

 

Going back to the Lord's Supper, Suppose a "group of Christians" wanted to to this daily?

But the deeper question is, what was the "rule" for all this between Pentecost (the usual day we say the church was "jump started") until ink first touched papyrus in the writings of what was to become the New Testament?

Most scholars think this did not occur until somewhat after A.D. 70, whereas, recent scholarship seem to indicate a much earlier date - like perhaps 20 or 30 years after Pentecost.

In this period of time, whatever it was, where was the "authority"?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

Can you demonstrate this for me, Frank?

Also, John 12:48, there is reference to Christ's Word. I also see to another word that decribes this "word" as being "spoke(n)" (Catholic NAB) which occurred, before it was ever written. Also, while Christ was in the flesh and walked among and taught the apostles, there is not one command from Christ to write a thing down!

Therefore, between the time of Pentecost and the New Testament was written, whence the "authority" that was to guide all Christians?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


- Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.

 

Your question is a good one, and your example is a good example as well. The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice for the simple reason that it is the revelation of God. God has the last say. Having said that, I believe that we should look for Biblical principles to go by, not always Biblical examples. What is the Biblical principle being taught in the Book of Acts when Peter had a vision of a sheet being let down to him three times with all kind of animals (mostly unclean), and a voice commanding him to arise and eat. If one went strictly be example would we expect to see vsions of sheets of animals coming down from Heaven? I think not! Regarding music if we go strictly by example (by the silence of any instruments), does that mean of necessity that there should be no instruments. We need to look for Biblical principles rather than examples. Or more accurately put the examples in the Bible are teaching what principles?

There are three things to consider.
Some things are Biblical. Adhere to them.
Some things are extra-Biblical.
Some things are anti-Biblical. Avoid them.

It is not anti-Biblical to worship on another day besides Sunday, or to take up an offering on any other day. It is not anti-Biblical to have instruments in the church. It is not anti-biblical to worship in a church building. Church structures nevr came into existence until about 250 A.D. If you went strictly by the Bible, you would find no example for a church building, and thus not be allowed to meet in one. It is extra-biblical, but not anti-biblical. Likewise a Bible college, and so many other things. We can find principles in the Bible that support all of these things, but no direct examples that these things existed.
DHK

 

Your question is a good one, and your example is a good example as well. The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice for the simple reason that it is the revelation of God.</font>[/QUOTE]Seeing that my other two messages has not been addressed, I will do so here with you, DHK.

How do you know that the bible is "our final authority"? Who told you? (Please, no offense at this direct question.)

Scripture itself says that it is inspired, but the problem is, what is scripture? Which books in the New Testament are divinely inspired? (All of them, of course!) How do we know that?

In other words, was there not some "outside authority" that could declare such a thing?

Finally, (with the OT now a closed or "fulfilled" covenant) where was the "final authority" between Pentecost and the first book of the New Testament was written?

(Some scholars now think this may have occurred about 30 years after Pentecost.)

Yes, which I call the "providence of God" in action as the New Testament is written, do so without a command from Jesus to do such a thing while He was in the flesh and taught the apostles.

This smacks of exactly why the Church gave testimony to the authority of scriptures! This is why the scriptures forms that most important source of reference, "etched in concrete" so to speak, an anchor that the definitions of doctrines and faith come from not just scripture but rather a symbiotic relationship between scripture and the teaching magisterium of the Church! At one time, (that time period between Pentecost and the existence of the New Testament) that all authority was with the Church. But by that same singular authority, the authority of scripture was recognized and included in the symbiotic relationship.

Well said here, DHK! I could not agree more!

Like I say, scripture is that Word of God (as taught verbally by Christ) that are "etched in concrete" or anchor points upon which the authority of the Church operates.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


- Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.

 

No offence. First, by faith. I simply beieve that God preserves his Word. But I do not believe that faith is blind, and that we ought to have a reason for our faith also.

Second by example. We have examples in Scripture of those who took the Bible as their final authority.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
--The Bereans were not satisfied simply with Paul's word. The finality of the Word of God in the Old Testament, bearing witness to the New Testament gospel that Paul was preaching, verified to the Bereans that his message was indeed from God. The Scripture was their final authority.

By Commandment:
Isa.8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--This is an Old Testament verse, but the principle remains the same. If what is spoken is not according to the Word of God, it is because there is no light in them. Thus the Word of God is our final authority. If a Hindu comes quoting the Vedas Scriptures as God's Word, it is not according to "the law and the testimony." (the Bible), because there is no light in him. The Bible is our final authority.

Directive of Christ
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Even Christ pointed to the Scriptures as authoritative, although it would be His Word which would be inscripturated at a later date in history. In this instance He speaks to the Pharisees and points them to the Old Testament, for they spoke of Him.

I believe the "outside authority" were the apostles themselves. They knew which books were inspired and which were not. I believe that Paul, who wrote many more than just 13 epistles, knew which ones were inspired, and which were not. He knew when he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and it seems apparent that the other apostles knew which epistles were inspired Scriptures as well. They passed that knowledge down to the believers of the early churches. I believe that the early churches knew what the canon of Scripture was by the beginning of the second century. They accepted each book with apostolic authority, John's works, the last to be written--between 90 to 98 A.D. Consider:

2Pet.1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
--Compared to our own experiences (he had just described his glorious experience seeing Christ transfigured along with Elijah and Moses on the Mount, and also hearing the very voice of God), the Word of God is more sure or certain. What we have today we can depend on.

2Pet.3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
--Peter says that the writings of the Apostles are just as important as the writings of the prophets, and we should be mindful of thei commandments as well. Their writings are the New Testament writings.

2Pet.3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
--Peter refers to the writings of Paul as Scripture. he refers to his epistles. The Apostles verified each others work.
We have plenty of evidence that this type of verification was handed down from the apostles to the early believers. They were not left without witnesses to what was authentic and what was not. It was not until much later, when false teachers arose who had introduced false writings, that confusion began. Origen was one of the ones responsible for this.

Two of the earlier books of the New Testament were James and Matthew, both written around 50-58 A.D.
So that first book may have been written as early as 20 years after Pentecost, or just a few years later. I would tend to say closer to the twenty mark. The last book was not written until 96-98 A.D. Up until that time the church relied on sign gifts (prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge), to make up the deciciency that the church had in New Testament knowledge until the canon of Scripture was complete at the end of the first century. Then those sign gifts ceased. The entire Bible became our final authority. Gifts were no longer needed. We have the Word.
DHK

 

Hi DHK,


what would you be specifically be focusing at that he wrote was false?

Im not familiar of Origen's writings.

 

Origen is known as the Father of Arianism.

 

Hi DHK, Thanks for the viewpoint... Me2

 

No offence. First, by faith. I simply beieve that God preserves his Word. But I do not believe that faith is blind, and that we ought to have a reason for our faith also.</font>[/QUOTE]But the Muslim would say the same thing about his Koran! And since there is much disagreement between these two books, only one of them can be "God's Word," do you agree?

Now, how can we discern which is the correct one? (There is a good reply to this, wondering if you will give it in response here.)

The Catholic Church does that to this very day! As she does not act on her Sacred Traditions alone, any more then she acts on the scriptures alone.

And interestingly, the Bereans then accepted the Oral Tradition that Paul is preaching to them when the Bereans are convinced that the jesus Paul is speaking of is the Messiah the then extant scriptures (The OT) predicts will come.

This is an example of circular reasoning, sir. In other words, "the bible says it is divinely inspired, therefore it is divinely inspired." We also have the problem of explaining exactly what the "Word of God" is. Is it solely scripture, or is there a Sacred Tradition element involved?

Also, cannot the Muslim do likewise with quotes form his Koran?

First of all, I have never denied the authority of scriptures! Neither has the Catholic Church! Else why would that sacred book be preserved as it has been? The problem is, we Catholics claim that the scriptures is not the sole authority as you guys claim, simply because there was a time when the Church existed with the authority given to it by Christ before ink touched papyrus in the writing of the New testament. in other words, the authority of the Church came before the authority of the New Testament! (The wonderful Old Testament, now the witness of the old covenant of Moses, is not fulfilled, but continued in authority in the "Word of God" in the words of Jesus Christ to his apostles - orally - not one command to write a thing down to them as we walked in the flesh with them!

I last said:

Scripture itself says that it is inspired, but the problem is, what is scripture? Which books in the New Testament are divinely inspired? (All of them, of course!) How do we know that?

In other words, was there not some "outside authority" that could declare such a thing?

The problem is, the apostles did not do the canonization of scriptures, the Church did this, much later in the 3rd century!

The apostles did the "writing," not determining what was scripture and what was not. You see, there was a lot of other stuff written in the apostolic age that was not considered scripture. Who determined that? Not the apostles, and this "other stuff" was also written in contemporary times but others, usually unknown. For example, the following were considered "contenders" for inclusion into the New Testament:


The Acts of Andrew
The Acts and Martyrdom of Andrew
The Acts of Andrew and Matthew
The Acts of Barnabas
The Epistle of Barnabas (thought to be inspired by some.)
The martyrdom of Bartholomew
The Gospel of Bartholomew
The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (thought to be inspired by some.)
The Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (thought to be inspired by some.)
The First Apocalypse of James
The Second Apocalypse of James
The Gospel of James
The Apocryphon of James
The epistle of James (Thought to be non- inspired by some.)
The Gospel of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. (Unsigned, but thought to be by John.)
The first epistle (Unsigned, but thought to be by John.)
The second epistle (Unsigned, but thought to be by John.)
The third epistle (Unsigned, but thought to be by John.)
The Revelation of John (Thought to be non- inspired by some.)
The Acts of John
The Book of John Concerning the Death of Mary
The Apocryphon of John
The Epistle to the Laodiceans
The Mystery of the Cross
The epistle of Jude (Thought to be non- inspired by some.)
The Gospel of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. (Unsigned, but thought to be by Luke.)
The Acts of the Apostles (Unsigned, but thought to be by Luke.)
The Gospel of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. (Unsigned, but thought to be by Mark.)
The Secret Gospel of Mark
The Passing of Mary
The Apocalypse of the Virgin
The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary
The Gospel of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. (Unsigned, but thought to be by Matthew.)
The Acts and Martyrdom of Matthew
The Martyrdom of Matthew
The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
The Epistle of Paul to the Romans
The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians
The Second Epistle of Paul to Corinthians
The Epistle of Paul to the Galatians
The Epistle of Paul to the Ephesians
The Epistle of Paul to the Philippians
The Epistle of Paul to the Colossians
The First Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians
The Second Epistle of Paul to Thessalonians
The First Epistle of Paul to Timothy
The Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy
The Epistle of Paul to Titus
The Epistle of Paul to Philemon l
The Epistle to the Hebrews (Thought to be by Paul, but non- inspired by some.)
The Acts of Paul
The Acts of Paul and Thecla
The Apocalypse of Paul
The Revelation of Paul
The Vision of Paul
The Prayer of the Apostle Paul
The Correspondence of Paul and Seneca
The first epistle of Peter
The second epistle of Peter (Thought to be non- inspired by some.)
The Acts of Peter
The Acts of Peter and Andrew
The Acts of Peter and Paul
The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles
The Apocalypse of Peter
The Revelation of Peter
The Gospel of Peter
The epistle of Peter to Philip
The Acts of Philip
The Gospel of Philip
The Revelation of Stephen
The Acts of Thomas
The Consummation of Thomas
The Apocalypse of Thomas
The Gospel of Thomas
The Book of Thomas the Contender
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians (thought to be inspired by some.)
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians (thought to be inspired by some.)
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians (thought to be inspired by some.)
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans (thought to be inspired by some.)
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans (thought to be inspired by some.)
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians (thought to be inspired by some.)
The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp
The Epistle of Ignatius to Mary at Neapolis
The Epistle of Ignatius to St. John the Apostle
The Second Epistle of Ignatius to St. John the Apostle
The Epistle of Ignatius to Hero, A deacon of Antioch
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Antiochians
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Tarsians
The Second epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Virgin Mary
The Reply of the Virgin Mary to Ignatius
The Epistle of Maria the Proselyte to Ignatius
An Arabic Infancy Gospel
Community Rule
Excerpts from Pistis Sophia
Fragments of Papias
Justin on the Resurrection
Justin on the sole government of God
Justin's Discourse to the Greeks-1
Justin's Hortatory Address to the Greeks
Other Fragments from the Lost Writing of Justin
The Acts of John the Theologian
The Acts of Thaddaeus
The Apocalypse of Adam
The Apocalypse of Sedrach
The Avenging of the Saviour
The Correspondence of Jesus and Abgar
The Death of Pilate
The Didache (thought to be inspired by some.)
The Epistle of Adrian in behalf of the Christians
The Epistle of Antoninus
The Epistle of Marcus Aurelius to the Senate
The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
The Epistle of the Apostles
The First Apology of Justin
The Giving Up of Pontius Pilate
The Gospel of Mary
The Gospel of Nicodemus
The Gospel of the Lord
The History of Joseph the Carpenter
The Letter of Pontius Pilate to the Roman Emperor
The Martydom of Polycarp
The Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea
The Report of Pilate to Caesar
The Report of Pilate to Tiberius
The Report of Pontius Pilate to Tiberius
The Revelation of Esdras
The Revelation of John the Theologian
The Revelation of Moses
The Revelation of Stephen
The Second Apology of Justin
The Shepherd of Hermas (thought to be inspired by some.)
The Sophia of Jesus Christ
The Teachings of Addeus the Apostle
The Three Steles of Seth

You and I both are in agreement here, but does this prove your assertions? That is the rub. We both agree that scripture is the divinely inspired "God breathed" holy scriptures. The problem is, which ones? Even Peter alluded to the inspiration of Paul's writings, but does that include Peter's own writings? Or, for that matter, all of the rest of what we find in the New Testament? Was there an ltimate "authority" here on earth to determine this?

Which ones, sir? Go back and see if the books I listed about which didn't "make it" into scripture qualify in your mind. Some local churches wanted the Didache to be included, whereas, others rejected Hebrews, James and even Revelations. No wonder we needed a Church with authority to sort this all out!

Indeed! But which ones are "authentic Paul" and which are not? (Actually, quite simple to determine, compared with some of the other writings of the apostles.) Does Peter include the other apostles in this category including his own? Actually, you could surmise this, as if Paul's writings are inspired, why not the others? But again, which books are inspired and to be included in scripture. I don't think there was any doubt that ALL of the writings of the apostles were divinely inspired by all of the local churches in those early times, the problem is, which are authentic and which are not?

I last said:

Finally, (with the OT now a closed or "fulfilled" covenant) where was the "final authority" between Pentecost and the first book of the New Testament was written?

(Some scholars now think this may have occurred about 30 years after Pentecost.)

I tend to agree here. Have you ever seen the documentary EYEWSITNESS TO JESUS (ISBN 1-56331-749-4) put out by The Learning Channel? (I have the tape!)

It is a wonderful documentary, based upon the work of one German papyrologist Carsten Thiede who determined that the gospel of Matthew was written within the eyewitness period to within 40 years of Christ's death/resurrection.

I don't know about James. Perhaps you have information on that? Incidently, most of this was to refute the notion that the New Testament was written way after the "eyewitness period" beyond A.D. 70 (The destruction of Jerusalem) to no earlier then AD 100. I contend that if that were so, why not a peep out of any NT writings about the events of the destruction of Jerusalem.

The problem is, there had to be an authority around that would sort out which book is scripture and which book is not, let alone the authority the Church had in that period we are discussing, "gifts" not witstanding. That happened in the 3rd century, long after the end of the apostolic era with the death of St. John, and that autority had to be the Church Christ founded, a church with ALL of the authority before the NT was written.

And by the way, are you sure that the "gifts" went away completely? I agree then then deminished, since God wanted to give a good "boost" for the Church, but I see "gifts" today that did not exist, even in those times of extraordinary gifts back in those early times.

But that is a good subject for another thread at another time!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Jarlaxle:
The authority for giving as one has been prospered is to be done upon the first day of the week. It is very specific. If one is assembled to worship God in spirit and in truth, He will do as the divine command as indicated. I Cor. 16:1,2, John 4:24.

 

W Putnam:
Yes, there is a direct command to write things down. The Bible says in Revelation 1:11, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. This is a declarative statement authorizing the writing by inspiration. This is the first way God authorizes an act.

Two, in Hebrews 10:7, the Bible says,¶Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Here is the second part of authority for writing by inspiration. The example.

Three, the totality of the evidence implicates God sanctioning the writing of the inspired volume. First, Jesus appealed to the authority of that which is written by inspiration. Mat. 4;4,7,11. The apostles wrote by inspiration. II Pet. 1:20,21, I Cor. 14:37, John 20:30,31, Rev. 21:5;14:15; 10:4; 3:14; 3:12, I John 1:2, II Pet. 3:1, Gal.1: 20, II Cor. 13:10. There are 91 verses of scripture that reference writing by the inspired men. There are 291 references to that which is written. There are 38 references to writing. Ther are 2 references of the word writest.

Finally, Jesus authorized all to believe that which is written. The Bible says, in John 5:46, 47, For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Luke writes in 24:44-46,And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46  And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

The rational mind concludes God authorized the writings of the Old and New Testaments.

 

As I understand it tithing is based upon one's increase, and since it was "traditional" to meet on the first day of the week, that is when the tithes for the whole week's increase could be assessed. Tithing was part of the day of meeting and not an everyday thing, which itself would be cumbersome thing. Paul simply prescribed for the churches he established what had been established within the community elsewhere. What does John 4:24 have to do with tithing? "24. God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth."

 

Yelsew:
The New Testament does not authorize Tithing. It authorizes giving as one is prospered. I Cor. 16:1,2. The word tithing is not found in the new testament with reference to the method of giving.

Second, There are five elements of worship in the new testament. Preaching, Acts 20:7. The Lord's Supper, I Cor. 11: 24-29. Prayer, I Tim. 2:8. Singing, Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16. Giving I Cor. 16:1,2. The inspired text indicates this was the true worship of the churh as found in the new testament.

There are other forms of worship mentioned which are not sanctioned by God. Note: Vain, Mat. 15: 9. Ignorant, Acts 17:23. Will, Col.2:23. In short, the new testament of Christ ordains true spiritual worship, not the other three.

 

Jarlaxle:
The text does not say which day(s) they sold their posessions.