"Biblical Authority"

Frank,
Where do you get suh a definition of worship? It seems very legalistic, and I don't find as such in the Bible or in dictionary meanings of the word.

Worship: reverence, honour, homage, given God. (Webster’s Dictionary)

The principal New Testament word (59 times) is proskuneo, "kiss (the hand or the ground) toward," hence, often in the oriental fashion bowing prostrate upon the ground; accordingly, Septuagint uses it for the Hithpael of shachah (hishtachawah), "prostrate oneself." It is to render homage to men, angels, demons, the Devil, the "beast," idols, or to God. It is rendered 16 times to Jesus as a beneficent superior; at least 24 times to God or to Jesus as God. The root idea of bodily prostration is much less prominent than in the Old Testament. It is always translated "worship." (A.T. Robertson)

Rev.4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--This is a good Biblical example of worship.
DHK

 

Jarlaxle:
I assume your last question was serious. I believe it is possible for me to sell my possessions on Monday and give them on Sunday. I get paid the last working day of the month, yet I give on the first day of each week of the month.
Furthermore, one may offer benevolence to others on any day of the week. However, the assembly is to give on the first day. This is as per I Cor. 16:1,2 and Acts 2:42. Individual Chistians are to assemble on the first day of the week and give as they have been prospered. I Cor. 16:1,2. This is exactly what is taught in the passage posted. Note: Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
The churches (the saved) Acts 2:47 are give ( when?) The first day of the week.

 

Dhk:
The Bible sets forth by command and example what is to be done in the assembly. The approved actions in the assembly of the church by the authority of Jesus Christ are the following:
1.Preaching. Acts 20:7.
2.Partaking of the Lord's Supper. I Cor. 11:24-29.
3.Singing. Hebrew 2:12, Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16.
4.Praying. I Tim.2:8, Acts 2:42.
5.Giving. I Cor. 16:1,2.

These actions are reverential acts of adoration of God in the way in which he has prescribed when assembled in accordance with the divine sanction of the new testament of Christ on the first day of the week. Note the context and content of the conversation with the woman in John 4. Context must be the deciding element in word meanings.

By the way, one must do things in a lawful manner. Note I John 3:4. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
So, yes, I worship in spirit and in truth which are lawful acts as directed by the new testament of Christ.


If you would like to discuss vain, ignorant, or will worship, I would be more than happy to do so. In fact, if you would like, I will make you a list of unauthorized practices, and the groups who illegally perform them.

[ July 21, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]

 

Dhk:
Rev. 4: 10,11 is not a good example of Biblical worship of the assembled in the gospel age.
1. You are not in Heaven. vs. 10.
2. You are not an elder. vs. 10.
3. You cannot surround his throne. vs. 10.
4. You have not received a crown as of yet. II Tim. 4:6-8. vs. 10.
5. You cannot fall down before him as he sits on his throne. vs. 10

I am sure things in heaven wiil be quite different than what we have here. Rev. 21:4. However, I am more concerend about getting there first. I love the passages though.

 

And my reverential asnwer is "So What!"
Giving is a duty of every Christian. It is by no means an act of worship--ascribing honor, homage, reverence to the Almighty God. Obedience to your petty "laws" is nothing but legalism. While they are good in themselves, Jesus said about them, "These ought ye have done, and not to leave the other undone." Legalism often leaves out the spirit in which one worships.

Tell me: Do you have auhority from the New Testament to use instruments in your worship? Is the practice Biblical or not?
DHK

 

In a sentence where I said "...while he walked with the disciples here on earth," I intended to exclude where Christ spoke to John in his writing of the Book of Revelation.

I mispelled "he" and typed "we," which may have added to the confusion. Indeed, I had intended to indicate "while Christ was with them in the flesh here on earth."

Of course, we are speaking of a reference back to the Old Testament, which existed before Christ established His church here on earth. There was little disagreement as to the divine inspiration of the OT (other then the disagreement over the deuterocanonicals that exists in the Sepytuagint which was favored by the early Christians.)

Of course by Christ quoting from the Septuagint we also claim that this version is divinely inspired as well! I have no problem with the acceptance of the Old Testament as divinely inspired. That grand old book came that way from the testimony of the prophets, I believe!

It is the New Testament that is the problem: The Church came before it came into existence!

Including the books I listed in a previous message that is not included in the New Testament? How do you know which book "Jesus authorized" outside of His use of the Old Testament? None of the New Testament texts were written during His earthly sojourn here on earth!

No problemento, sir!

All of this is true.....for the Old Testament! The only "scriptures" around when Luke wrote that was the Old Testament, and I don't think Luke had any idea the the Church, in the 3rd century, would include his works as divinely inspired "God breathed" scripture as well!

My rational mind has no problem with the Old Testament, sir. The problem comes with the New Testament. Now, I personally believe that God's providence whould have it that the New Testament would be written as we have it now, but it took His Church to compile it, canonize it and declare it, by her own authority, to be authoritive!

There is no other Church who can dare do such a thing but the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

Dhk:
The laws of God are not petty. They are for the good of man. The Bible says in James 1:22-25,But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23  For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24  For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25  But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. I follow the divine instructions the perfect law of liberty. Also known as the Law of Christ. Gal. 6:2. The Law of Faith. Romans 3; 27. The Royal Law. James 2:8. God's law is one of Love. Romans 13:10.

The WORD OF GOD says what is to be done in the assembly, not man. Mat. 15;9,10. Jesus pronounced woe on the pharisees for their attitude of what was right in their eyes and not Gods. Mat. 23:13-16 says,¶But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16  Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Verse 23 says,Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Verse 25 says,Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Verse 27 says, Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
The Bible teaches that these men had the wrong attitude about their teaching, relationship to God, with others, and oh yes,their worship to God. I believe their givng was at the house of worship called the temple, or after the babylonian imprisonment,the synagogue.

 

Frank,
In your entire lengthy post you failed to answer my question.

DHK

 

Dhk:

The Bible has revealed what is acceptable in worshipping God. The scriptures are there for all to read. Just because you do not like them, does not change them.

Giving is as much an act of reverential adoration for God as any other item of worship. This principle is seen in the attitude toward God in II Samuel 24:24 where David says he will not offer any sacrifice to God that cost him nothing. Sacrifices were a part of the worship of God. Eventhough, all men are commanded to give many do not. Therefore, they do not love respect and stand in awe of the great blessings God provides. David well understood that his love and devotion to God was reflected in the manner by which he gave. The same can be said of the widow in Mark 12:42-44. She was willing to give all she had to God. She had the greatest respect, adoration and love for God over the others who gave out of their abundance. The New Testamewnt of Christ provides the perfect and acceptable way to worship God, Some men do. John 4:24. Some men do not. Col. 2;23, Acts 17: 23.
I will address the question of mechanical instruments in my next response.

 

Dhk:
The new testament of Jesus Christ authorizes singing in worship to Christ. This authority is found in the following:
Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19, Acts 16:25, Hebrews 2;12, Romans 15:9, I Cor. 14:15, Mat. 26:30, James 5:13.

Mechanical instruments were first used by the Catholic church in the 600's. A practice that caused a revolt that temporarily stopped the practice.( 700's) Here is a brief history of the UNAUTHORIZED PRACTICE.

CLARKE "I am an old man, and I here declare that I never knew them to be productive of any good in the worship of God, and have reason to believe that they are productive of much evil. Music as a science I esteem and admire, but instrumental music in the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music, and I here register my protest against all such corruption of the worship of the author of Christianity.

'I have no objections to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen.' I say the same." (Adam Clark, Methodist)

CALVIN "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (I Cor. 14:16) What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound?" (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33
AUGUSTINE "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)
ROBERTSON "The word (psalleto) originally meant to play on a stringed instrument (Sir. 9:4), but it comes to be used also for singing with the voice and heart (Eph. 5:19; 1 Cor. 14:15), making melody with the heart also to the Lord" (A. T. Robertson, Baptist Greek scholar, Baptist Studies in the Nestle James, comment on James 5:13)

We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)
BARNES "Psallo … is used, in the New Testament, only in Rom. 15:9 and 1 Cor. 14:15, where it is translated sing; in James 5:13, where it is rendered sing psalms, and in the place before us. The idea here is that of singing in the heart, or praising God from the heart" (Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian, Notes on The Testament, comment on Eph. 5:19).
KNOX "a kist (chest) of whistles." (John Knox, Presbyterian, in reference to the organ)
WESLEY 'I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685) LUTHER "The organ in the worship Is the insignia of Baal… The Roman Catholic borrowed it from the Jews." (Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong's Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762).

Christians, faithful to the new testamant teachings of Jesus Christ, sing and do not use mechanical instrunets of music. Mechanical instruments are unauthorized by Jesus Christ in his new testament. One must go outside the pages of inspiration to find endorsememnt for the practice of playing mechanical instruments in the worship of God.

 

Good Points Bill!

 

Just a yes or know would have done. I didn't want to get into a detailed discussion in this thread about music. However, according to your logic then, it is only right to assume that you only have authority from the Scripture to meet in the Temple in Jerusalem, or in synagogues, or in houses, or out in the open. By example that is where the believers met. We have no authority to meet in church buildings, just like we have no authority to use musical instruments. If you cannot use musical instruments, you certainly cannot use modern day church buildings. A church building was unknown to early believers until 250 years after the death of Christ. Where do you meet?
DHK

 

W Putnam:
You simply ignored the hundreds of references to writing in the new testament which answers the question about God authorizing the writing of the new testament question. In your response, you question the veracity of the writings. This also is simple to answer.
The writings of the new testament of Christ manifested the following:

1. Confirmation by the mirculous power. Mark 16:20.

2. The writer himself was to confirm his wriitngs by the same standard. II Cor. 12:12.

3. The writings were to reflect all Jesus taught the apostles. John 14;26;15:26;16:13. Mat. 28:18-20, II Pet. 1;20,21, Acts 8;18, I Cor. 14:37, Acts 20:27.

4. These scriptures were for the purpose of completing man unto all good works. II Tim. 3;16,17.

5. The written text of scripture was a record of permanence for the faith once delivered unto all the saints. Jude 3, I Cor. 13;8-10, Eph.4:12-14, Rev. 22:18,19.

6. Faith was purposed through the written record of the miraculous. John 20;30,31.

7. Jesus ALWAYS APPEALS TO THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR AUTHORITY OF TEACHING OR PRACTICE. Mat. 4:4,7,11.

8. The testimony of two or three witnesses esatablished the truth. II Cor. 13:1,2.

9. All the Bible contains is truth and all the truth. John 17:17. It is verifiable by the harmonious fulfillment of prophecies over hundreds and even thousands of years by some 40 writers with various educational levels and backgrounds. There is no other book that can compare to the complete and final will and testament of Jesus Christ.
Again, the rational mind concludes the new testament of Christ makes us complete unto all good work in the spirtual aspects of this life. II Pet. 1:3.

10. No penman claimed that his physical writings were his, but were the very commandments of God. I Cor. 14:37.

Again, the rational mind concludes the new testament of Christ makes us complete unto all good work in the spiritual aspects of this life. II Pet. 1:3.

 

Let me repost what I said on the first page. Our authority is indeed the word of God. What does the Word of God teach? What principles does it teach about music? What principles does it teach about meeting together to worship the Lord? What principles does it teach about "worshp" itself? The Bible is not a legalistic "to do," or "not to do," list. It gives us principles whereby to live the Christian life.
DHK

 

Dhk:
I will entertain your folly about buildings. Please take notes.
The Bible says in Romans 16:3-5,Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4  Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
5  Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. The church the assembly, the saved, met in Aquilla and Priscilla's HOUSE IN ROME.
The Bible says in Acts 5:12-14,¶And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13  And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14  And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
The christians in Jerusalem met on the PORCH OF THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM.
Jesus said in John 4:21, Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
God authorizes meeting inhouses, temples porches, mountains. In fact, God authorizes meeting in any place where two are two gathered in his name,even jail. Mat. 18:20. Acts 16:25. In other words, the meeting facility is an expedient.

 

Dhk:
The Bible is a to do book. James 1:22. One who does not do will not get into heaven. Rev. 22:14.
The church at Corinth was admonished to "now perform the doing of it." II Cor. 8:11. A refernce to their verbal, and mental ascent to loving the less fortunate brethren in Jersualem. see verse 10.

 

Dhk:
The Bible does not authorize mechanical instruments. Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19 etc. The Bible does not authorize an offering by the assembly except for the first day of the week. I Cor. 16:1,2. The buildings issue was addressed by the scriptures. Romans 16:3-5, Acts 5;12.
The scriptures contradict the very positions you are espousing. I understand better as to why you do not think the Bible is a to do book. You simply are not going to follow the perfect law of liberty. James 1:22-25.

 

Solomon's porch was part of the Temple. I mentioned houses and synagogues. The word church simply means an assembly and does not refer to a building of any kind. Just as there is no authority for musical instruments in the "church building," there is no authority for the "church building" itself. There were no church buildings Frank. You are a hypocrite Frank if you allow church buildings and not allow musical instruments.
DHK

 

Gee, did I do all that? I'm not sure I saw so many references to what you think confims the authenticity of the New Testament insofar as it's divine inspiration.

I do no such thing!

I hold the "vderacity of the writings" of both the Old and New Testaments! But not by the circular reasoning I see others attempt to do. My belief in the Bible and it's divine origins comes from the fiat of the Catholic Church who complied, canonized and declared it divinely inspired!

What is the "word" they propagated, Frank? Why the spoken "sword," the "good news" of the gospel they received orally from the Savior who instilled it into their hearts and minds!

And I see nothing here that says that the "written word" by book, chapter and verse, is divinely inspired.

Again, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with the exclusive and sole authority of scripture, it's divinely inspired make-up and why any Catholic would consider scriptures to be divinely inspired.

Look, if you want me to read all of this, I would insist your quote them verbatum. When even I refer to scripture, you will see me most often actually quote from the pertinant verses I reference.

I would therefore insist you cull through your "reading assignment" above and indicate to me how is is that scripture is to be the sole source for faith, doctrine and morals, including how it is that specific books by title are indeed, divinely inspired as it's own fiat to say such a thing.

That's wonderful! Now please take me by the hand and show me how this proves the divinely inspired nature of their contents, let alone their being the exclusive source for faith, doctrine and morals.

You believe that and I also believe that!

My Moslem friend would also declare similarly to the Koran.

Oh stop it please! I agree! I agree! but I agree for different grounds then you do, Frank! Who told you that this was true? Did you read it in the Bible?

I was told it was true by an "agency" (Read "CHURCH")that husbanded the Bible in the new covenant of Christ, who is the prime basis of my belief by using the Bible as a historical account before doing the "spiril logic" that then bootstraps the bible to the divinely inspired "God breathed" wonderful book that it is!

And I have already told you that I agree - for the Old Testament that is, which was the only book available for Christ to quote from!

The truth about what, Frank?

Do I hear a word from them that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, etc. are divinely inspired "good breathed" written Word of God?

By the way, Peter comes close, by the way, when I equated Pauls writings to scripture. The problem is, which writings of Paul? Does he include his own writings, or that of the other apostles?

And how do you know that?

That quote says nothing of the kind!

From Pentecost to about 30 years later, there was no New Testament. Therefore, the only WORD around was the ORAL WORD as given to the apostles from the mouth of Christ! They were the only authority for that given period of time. And even after the last book of the New Testament was written by John, it was not until the 3rd century that the bible was finally canonized into one book by 3 councils of the Church, The councils of Hippo, Chalcedon, and Rome.

Guess which Church convened them, Frank.

Is that New Testament that complete that we needed no further clarification from any "agency" as to doctrine, faith and morals?

Why then must the Church define the Trinity in the face of heresies that deny the divinity of Christ? Why define the Eucharist when for the first 1500 years, there was no question as to what the Eucharist was.......until it was challenged by the so called "Protestant Reformation" to be specifically defined for us today by the Council of Trent?

Who claimed this for their own writings, Frank?

Peter came close by equating Paul's writings with scripture, but I see nothing from any of them that they would say the claim you make here.

And this logical mind sees nothing of the kind!

It is not confirmed in scripture; nothing from Christ that tells His apostles to "write a thing" against going out and preach (while he was with them here on earth in the flesh...)

Nothing, nada, zippo, Frank. The Bible does not confirm that itself is the sole source for doctrine, faith and morals.

Not one whit! Sorry!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Brother Adam, I take that as a great compliment, coming from a Baptist! (Pride, get thee behind me!) I am nothing but for the support of others much better then I am in this work!

I have been defending my faith for a long time, Brother Adam, since becoming a convert in 1953.

Were you born then?

Here is my testimony:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/p/wputnam3/My%20Story.htm

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


- Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.