"Biblical Authority"

Jarlaxle:
I failed to address the rest of your previous post. I am very open to the study of God's word. I have posted scriptural evidence that is truth.

You, on the other hand, have asked questions, all of which were successfuly and truthfully answered from the scriptures. You have stated things as truth without any OBJECTIVE STANDARD WHATSOEVER TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION. You have questioned my sincerety by accusing me of being scared or brainwashed, and one who perhaps would never see spiritualy. Sir, you should be ashamed and embarassed by your behavior and UNSUBSTANTIATED ACCUSATIONS.

For the record, I have studied the Bible for many years. I have changed my life based on the truth contained in the divine volume. I will continue to change as the truth directs me to do so.

However, I reject the subjectivity and mere emotional feelings of men as a guide to get to heaven, for it is Jesus who stated the eternal objective standard of truth in John 17:17; 12:48.

I accept the new testament of Christ, all of it, even the parts I may question in my mind, as my guide. It is apparent you reject it! I choose the strait and narrow way of Christ. Mat. 7:13,14.

Have a good day!

 

Frank,
Your arguments and logic (if there be any) are full of loopholes) You refer to Col.3:16 and Eph.5:18,19 in support of your argument that musical instruments should not be used in the church; whereas these verses in reality teach the very opposite. Take Col.3:16 for instance.

Col.3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
--Is it just your imagination, or does this verse specifically prohibit the use of musical instruments when “singing with grace, and

Eph.5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
--Where is the prohibition in using musical instruments in the singing of “spiritual songs and making melody in your hearts to the Lord?” I don’t see any Frank.

Quoted by Frank:

You have no authority in the word of God for this Frank. The Temple, synagogues, houses, open places. Those are the only places that you have authority to meet in if you are going to abide by the authority of the Word of God. Your position is hypocritical, and can easily demonstrated to be. If you were really concerned about authority and adherence to the Word of God, you would admit that your building “as an expedient” is an excuse and a lie for disobedience to your concept of authority to the Word of God. It is not an expedient. It is a luxury and a convenience because we live in an affluent nation. You don’t want to sacrifice, and probably don’t know what the word means.
I have been in third world nations where churches meet regularly that have no buildings to meet in. They meet out in the open: in any open space—a field, an open lot where a house hasn’t been built yet, any place that they can find. It is the people that is the church, not the building! Other congregations meet in someone’s house, often a mud hut with a grass thatched roof, something like the one described in the Bible where the paralytic was let down through the roof to be healed by Jesus. Many meet in houses. Many don’t have church buildings, or buildings specific to meeting for a church. If you were truly concerned about giving heed to the authority of the Bible, you would either meet like the early believers met—in houses and open fields, or be a missionary to a third world nation where they still meet in that fashion. My gut feeling is that you would never do that. You don’t want to sacrifice the affluence and modern day convenience that you already have. A church building is not an essential; it is not an “expedient.” Neither are pews and song books either. They are both luxuries. Your stand is hypocritical. If disallow musical instruments on the basis that they are not mentioned in the Bible; that there is no authority for them in the Bible; then of a necessity you must disallow church buildings or meeting places other than those mentioned in the Bible, or you are a hypocrite. Your stand is entirely hypocritical. You do not follow the Bible consistently.
DHK

 

Dhk:
It is unfortunate that you refuse to answer my questions, and provide scripture for your assertions. However, I expected you to behave in this manner.

You have not provided SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS MECHANICAL INSTRUMENTS. This is your scriptural defense of using them BOOK 000, CHAPTER 000, VERSE,000.

On the other hand,I have posted scrpture that supports my position. EVERY SCRIPTURE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHES US BY DECLARATIVE STATEMENT, APPROVED EXAMPLE, AND IMPLICATION ONE IS TO SING. The scriptures SPECIFICALLY STATE THE ACT OF SINGING. One, It is for people. Speaking to yuorselves, Eph. 5;19 is a reciprocal refelective pronoun, it refers to an act by people. Eph. 5:19, Col. 3;16. Two, The singing consists of WORDS. Col. 3;16. Note the phrase Let the word of Christ dwell in you. Three, these words were to TEACH, ADMONISH, INSTRUCT.Col. 3;16, Eph. 5:19. Four, the singing was to be UNDERSTOOD. I Cor. 14:15. Five, the singing, the words used to admonish with understanding, were to come from the MIND or HEART. This is the INSTRUMENT, according to the BIBLE, that to be psallo or plucked. This is DECLARED. It is APPROVED BY EXAMPLE, Mat. 26:30, Acts 16;25, Hebrews 2;12, Romans 5;19. It is IMPLIED by the totality of the harmonious evidence. Mat. 26:30, I Cor. 14:15, Acts 16:25, James 5:13, Romans 5:19, Col. 3;16, Eph. 5:19.

Dhk, If you truly believe using mechanical instruments is sanctioned by God. Please provide, as I have done for my position, BOOK, CHAPTER AND VERSE for Mechanical instruments. That is if you wish of people to take your assertions seriously.

Furthermore, Jesus said and I quote in Mat. 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them. It is obvious from the new testament God's people understood they may meet WHERE TWR THREE ARE GATHERED,just as Jesus said. Note: They met in the TEMPLE. Acts 5:12, They met in a house (s). Romans 16:3-5, They met in JAIL. Acts 16:24-26. They met at a RIVER. Acts 16: 12-14. This is consistent with the same principles of langauge applied to the issue of instruments of music. Note: the LORD DECLARED WHERE. The new testament APPROVED BY EXAMPLE MEETING PLACES. The BIBLE BY IMPLICATION teaches us the meeting place is an EXPEDIENT ( I Cor. 6:12 ) or that which is lawful to carry out a command to assemble. Hebrews 10;25, I Cor. 6:12.

Furthermore, you failed to quote my entire [post as it pertains to AUTHORITY AND PRACTICE. I am sure it was just an over-sight. So, in the interest of truth, I will post the part you, inadvertently, left out.

GOD HAS NEVER AUTHORIZED A TEACHING OR PRACTICE BY SILENCE. NEVER DID! NEVER HAS! NEVER WILL! GOD AUTHORIZES THROUGH HIS EXPRESSED WILL. Note the following: In Hebrews 7:17, The Bible says, It is evident that our Lord sprang out of the tribe of Judah of which tribe Moses spake NOTHING concerning the priesthood. In Hebrews 8:4, the Bible says, For if he were a high priest on earth, HE should NOT be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts ACCORDING TO THE LAW. it is clear God NEVER AUTHORIZES BY SILENCE, ONLY HIS EXPRESSED WILL.
Now, Dhk, please show me in the word of God by the EXPRESSED WILL the AUTHORITY FOR MECHANICAL INSTRUMENTS Will you do it?

My positions on these questions have been consistent in methodology, true to the meaning of the words in the text, and in complete harmony with the word of God in his expressed will, the new testament of Jesus Christ.

Your repetitious denials of scripture and character attacks do not prove your case. You can assert a thing all day long until eternity, but all that really is true is that" which is written."

I hope you will do the honorable thing and answer my questions by the static standard of truth, however, as of this writing, you have chosen to name call and ignore. I asked the following:

1. What SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT can you provide from the new testament for mechanical instruments? BOOK, CHAPTER AND VERSE, please.

2. Is it lawful to meet in a house, temple, river, jail, or where two or there are gathered in the name of Christ? If not, why not? BOOK, CHAPTER AND VERSE , please.

3. How does God authorize a teaching or practice? According to the Bible, is it by an expressed will of a declared statement, approved example, or implication of the scripture. Or, is it some other method? If it is some other method, please provide the evidence.

Moreover, it is apparent from your posts directed to me that,thus far, you have chosen to ignore scripture, the the implication of language, and make no attempt to answer my questions about these issues. I hope in your next post you will attempt to do so.

So far, the evidence indicates, I am consistent and in harmony with the Bible. This is contrary to your contention I am a hypocrite. I trust in the next post you will address the issues and refrain from name calling and infalmmatory assertions about character.

[ July 25, 2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]

 

Jarlaxle:
Where else will one find eternal life besides in the scriptures? And, How do you know?

 

What Scriptural evidence for meeting in a church building or any other building other than those designated than those in the Bible. If you cannot provide this evidence my case rests. The onus is on you. You have failed to provide any hard evidence thus far. The principe of teaching is not good enough, just as the principel of singing is not good enough for you to accept the use of instruments. "Make a joyful noise to the Lord all ye lands."

Is it lawful to meet in places other than these, Frank? That is the real question, for that is what you are doing. You are not limiting yourself houses, the Temple, rivers, and jails, your question is moot, if not hypocritical. You meet in a building that is entirely different from structures or places from those mentioned here. Don't play the hypocrite here.

I believe that God uses principles found in the Word of God; you stick to the letter of the law, as if you put yourself under the law and not under grace. I beleive that the building you are meeting in is perfectly ok to meet in. There is nothing wrong with it. But I also believe that musical instruments are perfectly ok to use, and that there is nothing wrong with them.

Logic dictates that unless you can find church buildings which are not in the Word of God, you are not authorized to use them, just as you would not be able to use musical instruments. I don't believe that. That would be the logical outcome of your belief that you can't see.
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord. We are not limited to our voices. Sing psalms and spiritual songs. It does not prohibit us from using instruments to accompany us. You cannot demonstrate that from Scripture. Can you give any verse of Scripture where it says "Thou shalt not use musical instruments." It isn't there Frank. In fact, if you read the book of Revelation we know there will be musical instruments in heaven:

(Rev 5:8 KJV) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

(Rev 14:2 KJV) And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

(Rev 15:2 KJV) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev.9:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

There is music in heaven, and it will include musical instruments, especially stringed instruments such as harps.
DHK

 

Jarlaxle:

How do you know Jesus except by the word. After all, he is the word. John 1:1. He is the spiritual image of truth. John 17:17.

Question: How does one know he is IN Jesus?
I deduct from your post that your idea of salvation is by your personal sincerety in Jesus. Is this the case? Is this your "formula" ? HOW does one know Jesus? Is it through his sense of smell, touch, taste, hearing , or sight. Just how do you know you are saved? I trust you can explain this to inquiring minds.

By the way, the Bible says this about the " formula " to be IN Jesus and saved. Hebrews 5:8,9, John 3:36, John 6:63, James 1:18,21, I John 4:1-4, Acts 17:30, Mat. 10:32, Romans 10:9,10, I John 4:7, I Pet. 3:21, II Tim. 2:10, Eph. 1:3, II Pet. 1:3, Jude 3. My faith and trust are IN the expressed will of God IN Christ Jesus. I accept no substitutes.

 

Dhk:
I have proven both my stated positions. I have done so with the word of God. However, you have failed to provide SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE FOLLOWING:
1. The use of mechanical instruments in new testament worship. Your argument is, I like it, and, it does not say not to do it. The scriptural support you have provided is the follwoing: BOOK 000,CHAPTER 000, VERSE 000. These arguments are UNSCRIPTURAL AND FALSE. GOD HAS NEVER AUTHORIZED BY SILENCE. Note: Hebrews 7:14, and 8:4.
Furthermore, singing is authorized by the SCRIPTURES. Note the following: Mat. 26:30, Acts 16:24,25, Romans 15:9, Hebrews 2;12, James 5:13, I Cor. 14:15, Eph. 5:19, Col. 3;16.

Your latest post at least was an attempt to use some scripture for the defense of your false position. In Revelation 14:2 the Bible says, and I quote. " and I heard ( What?) a voice from ( Where? ) heaven as the Voice of many waters, and and as the voice of great thunder and I heard the VOICE of harpers harping with their harps. In verse 3, AND THEY SUNG As it were a new song before the throne. This text is a picture into heaven where, according to the Bible, all things are new. Rev. 21:4,5. Therefore, this along with Revelation 5:8 are taken out of the context of heaven and are not new testament worship. Furthermore, the passages after each post indicate the actual literal act, not simile, was singing.
On the other hand, you have defended mechanical instruments in the new testament worship with the following: BOOK 000, CHAPTER 000, VERSE 000.

2. Jesus by DECLARATIVE STATEMENT AUTHORIZED MEETING PLACES. MAT. 18:20 INDICATES IT IS WHERE TWR THREE ARE GATHERED IN HIS NAME. The Bible teaches us that temples, jails, houses, rivers were employed as EXPEDIENTS IN WHCH TO WORSHIP. Please note: I Cor. 6:12, Acts 16: 24,25 Acts 5:12, Acts 16:12-14, Romans 16:3-5.

Dhk, in opposition to the truth, has provided the following: BOOK 000, CHAPTER 000, VERSE 000.
Once again, as is his custom, he ignores or refuses to SCRIPTURALLY answer questions.

I have provided ALL THE SCRIPTURES AVAILABLE FOR THE POSITIONS I AFFIRMED. Therefore, unless you can provide SCRIPTURE TO REBUT the evidence, you should spare us your name calling and unsubstantiated assertions. Have a good day.

 

Frank you have provided no Scripture whatsoever for meeting in church building. The early believers did no such thing until 250 A.D.
Mat.18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them," is a verse speaking of church discipline. It is not a definition of a church; it in no way defines a church, and does not support your position at all.

 

Dhk:
The context of Mat. 18:20 is reference to assembling. One who denies this is simply choosing to be blind. This reference is also to the church or the saved. The issue was "MEETING PLACE" not what actions are taking place at any given time. It is obvious from the context that an assembly a meeting is taking place. One does not exercise church discipline without the church which is the saved,or where at least two or three are gathered in his name. Your argument is absurd. It does not even support your contention from the context.
Verse 15, indicates one is to tell a brother his fault betrween you and him alone.
Verse 16 provides the next avenue to follow in resolution of tresspass. Note: Take two or three witnesses.
Verse 17, if he one and two do not effect change, then tell it to the church. The church is not one member but many. I believe that is at least two or three.

While church discipline is addressed in the context so is the number of people or where this is to take place. Jesus said it was to be in the midst of the church or where two or three are gathered in his name. Your argument about what is taking place in the context is not the subject of debate. However, what constitutes a lawful meeting is germain to this debate.

Moreover, the context of Mat. 18:15-20 teaches us that church disciple should be exercised WHEN? See verses 15 and 16 bear no fruit. WHERE is found in verse 20, " where two or there are gathered" in his name. This according to Jesus constitutes a lawful meeting. Mat. 18:20.

 

Dhk:
Your assertion I have presented no scripture for meeting places is a falsehood. The list for meeting places are the following: Acts 5:12, Temple. Acts 16;12-14, River. Houses, Romans 16:3-5. Jail, Acts 16:24,25. These are lawful meeting places by the divine edict of Christ as per Mat. 18:20. They are all expedients. I Cor. 6:12.

Now, It is not a falsehood to say YOU have not presented divine SCRIPTURE that AUTHORIZES mechanical instruments in worship.

It is not a falsehood to say you have not presented SCRIPTURE that demonstrates the places that Christians met i.e. jails, temple, houses, river or where two or three are gathered in the name of Christ,which are expressly written in scripture, is unlawful.

It is not a falsehood to say you simply have ignored the text of SCRIPTURE, that which is written, and appealed for authority that which God HAS NEVER,DOES NOT NOW, AND NEVER WILL USE AS AUTHORITY....SILENCE OF THE SCRIPTURES!

 

Your logic fails you Frank.
I have pointed out to you how that they are not expedients, and even if they are, by your logic you must confine yourself to only those "expedients" or meeting places that are mentioned in the Bible. Church buildings, including the type that you meet in, are not in the list that you gave me. You fail in your own test of authority.

Are we getting somewhere here Frank? Your authority for meeting in a church building is the silence of Scripture. This is what I have been saying all along. The Scripture is silent on church buildings. The same authority is given on musical instruments--silence (for the most part). For there is some examples if instruments in Revelation. However, if you meet in a church building based on the silence of Scripture (which you do); then to be consistent, you must allow (or at least not judge) the use of musical instruments in churches. The same authoriy--the silence of Scripture is used in both cases.
DHK

 

Dhk:
You have demonstrated you know very little about Bible authority. My logic and rational are consistent and sound. The scripures PROVE IT. An expedient is that which carries out a lawful command. Your reasoning is that all expedients must be EXPRESSED. This is logically false and irrational.

Note: The act of preaching is a command. Expedients for carrying out this command would be radio, television, tract. etc. These are not expressly stated but are expedients as per I Cor. 6:12. By your reasoning, one could only proclaim the gospel by mouth in the follwoing:
1. The temple in Jerusalem. Acts 5:12.
2. A River in Phillipi. Acts 16;12-14.
3. Houses in Rome. Romans 16;3-5.
4. A jail in Phillipi. Acts 16:24,25.
YOU VIOLATE YOUR OWN BELIEFS BY TEACHING ON THIS BOARD,AS USING THIS BOARD IS NOT EXPRESSLY STATED IN THE SCRIPTURES. AND, YOU WANT TO CALL ME A HYPOCRITE!!!!!
Yes, indeed, we are getting somewhere. However, you like the somewhere less with each passing post.

 

Dhk:
I do not meet in an unathuroized place based on silence. I may meet by command of Jesus where two or three are gathered in his name. Mat. 18 and verse 20 is a general command to all. Jesus autorizes me by his words to meet whereever Christians are located.

Furthermore, by your reasoning, one could only meet in Phillipi, Rome, Jerusalem, Corinth I Cor. 11:14-19, Galatia, I Cor. 16:1,2, and Thessalonica. These are the only places by example christians were gathered.

God does not provide an example for everything declared nor vice versa. Language does not work that way. There are things that are Implied by evidence that are not declared, or expressly exemplified. This does not mean God has not spoken. If this were the case, the Bible would have to be so big we could never read it. God did not declare I can not use steak and potatoes for the Lord's Supper. However, by declarative statement, example, and implication, this would be unlawful.
Some commands are specific others are general. To sing is specific. Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16. To worship God with music would be general.
To worship God is a general command. A specific one would be to do so on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7, Acts 2:42, I Cor. 16:1,2, I Cor. 11:24-26, Hebrews 2:12, EPH. 5:19, Col. 3;16. These scriptures specify what is to be done in worship to God. I can conclude by the scriptures one should meet on the first day of the week to act in the prescribed manner.
To assemble is a command. The place is not specified, but examples of many places are provided. I can conclude by example and declarative statement that I may meet where two or three Christians are gathered. The meeting places in the scriptures are not commanded SPECIFICALLY AS THIS WOULD REQUIRE ALL CHRISTIASN TO MEET IN THE SAME PLACE. They are expedients. These are things that carry out lawful commands. Other examples are communion trays, water fountains, electric lights, microphones.

By the way, You used the term church building. I do not. That is an unscriptural designation for a meeting place. The building is not saved. Furethermore, I do not go to church. I assemble as per Acts 2:42.

Again by your reasoning one must meet in the same place as EVERY CHRISTIAN. Now, which place are we all going to meet. Will it be in a jail in Phillipi, the temple in Jerusalem, the homes of Corinth, those in Thessalonica, or Rome. Furthermore, one must violate what you believe, as it is impossible to meet in all these places at the same time with every one. However,that is your reasoning from the scripture. Good luck in keeping it.

 

You are butchering Scripture just like a cultist would. Sorry for the harsh language, but you continue to do this on this board. Now, demonstrate to me through the context of Mat. 18, that verse 20, is speaking of a place to meet. Demonstrate that it has anything to do with a place of gathering at all. Otherwise don't use it agian.
DHK

 

Sorry, I've been away for a week, but I need an explanation.

Just what is tithing if not giving? There is no set of "bylaws" relating to membership or financial contributions. Tithing was demonstrated in the Old Testament as something one, who was active in temple worship, would do "out of one's increase". Giving in the New Testament is also demonstrated as what one contributes "out of one's increase". The day of the week is strictly arbitrary, based on when the "organization" met to worship together.

Please don't make it a matter of "legalism"!

 

Yelsew:
Tithing was required under the old covenant. It required one to give a tenth of all he had. This would include livestock, goods, precious metals etc. The Hebrew must also give the best and first fruits of his physical blessings.

Today, we are commanded to purpose in our hearts what we give. In other words, there is no flat percentage for us to give. It is as we purpose in our hearts based on our prosperity. Today, we could give 30, 40, 50 percent or some may give less than 10 percent. There is no physical priest who ensures that the giver provides his best, or his first fruits. Instead, our heart is our guide. I Cor. 16:1,2. This is unlike the old law.

Today, we are under the perfect law of libery. James 1: 25. This is a better covenant than the old. Hebrews 8:6. I hope this clarifies what the Bible teaches about giving.

 

Dhk:
You have to be kidding. I have answered this over and over again by direct quotes and references. Mat. 18:20 teaches just what it says. Jesus is is where two or three are gathered in his name. The context of the chapter you posted is as good a commentary on what constitutes a meeting as anyone could provide. Why would one not use the inspired text and the clear declarative language. I find your request not to use it inane and foolish.

DHK, EVERYTHING MUST BE DONE IN HIS NAME. Col. 3:17, I Cor. 10:30,31, Mat. 28:18-20. In his name, means by his authority. Therefore, Jesus authorized places where two or three are gathered. I posted the Biblical application of Jesus' DECLARED DIRECT STATEMENT.

Furthermore, I will continue to teach the Bible by using declared statements, approved examples and implications from the inspired text.

Again, you have followed your same pattern of rebuttal. You answer no arguments with SCRIPTURE. You IGNORE the clear meanings and implications of texts of SCRIPTURE. You attempt to prejudice people by your unsubstantiated rhetorric and name calling. In the light of this type of bombastic drivel, you actually expect me to be threatened to not use a scripture or any scripture. Please note: Proverbs 10:14,19,21;29:9,11. Proverbs 29:9 says, if a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh there is no rest.

Bear my folly. I just realized why you do not understand declarative statements from scripture, approved examples from scripture, or implications from scripture. You live in Canada and do not speak ENGLISH!! I am sorry about that as english is my mother and only tongue.

 

Avoid the question when you can't answer it.
Call names when you can't answer it.
Even use borderline racism

No matter what you do, why won't you answer the question? Let's try again.

Now, demonstrate to me through the context of Mat. 18, that verse 20, is speaking of a place to meet. Demonstrate that it has anything to do with a place of gathering at all. Otherwise don't use it agian. Notice the words "through (i.e., 'using') the context"
DHK