Tongues

SInger --

I looked at the thread you mentioned, and I can
see why Dr. Bob answered as he did. I do not say
this to be unkind at all, Singer. You came there
knowing that it was the Baptist Only part of the
Baptist Board and basically stated so in more
than one post there, as I recall. It would have
been far better had you started a thread in a
section where you are very welcome to voice
opinions and answered the problems you saw
in it.

For some of us (and I say US, inclusive of myself),
it is just too easy to break rules when we think we
are justified in doing so. I have done the same
thing.

I simply ask you to step back, take a look at your
attitude and responses on the Baptist Board. We
are all here as guests, with no rights whatsoever.
I, for example, was barely allowed on the Baptist
section of Baptist Board, and with good reason.

 

Singer, Your post above is not based on what the Bible says. Please address my simple points one by one and refute them with scripture. If you cannot refute my points then you must be in error in regards to your belief about the gift of "speaking in tongues".

In Christ,
Brian

 

So Singer, what was inconsiderate about that?

As for "dirt," no, I don't want to play in it; but I do want to hear both sides of the story.

 

Brian,

Just a counterpoint:

It is not required by the text to see AD70 as being particulalrly significant. That is an assumption on your part. Paul's words can easily be taken to mean only that tongues bring judgement on unbelievers (not specifically Jews, and hence not specifically to have any relation to Jerusalem). Nothing in the context leads one to expect anything like you suggest. Indeed a more general application is supported by the context whch speaks of inquirers and ubelivers generally, not Jews only. The only chronological marker that is in the context is 13:10. That speaks almost certainly not to AD 70 but to the end of the age, the return of Christ.

If your idea were accurate then Paul is wrong. The imperfect (tongues) did not disappear when perfection came, but when destruction came.

In light of this consideration it seems you are making too much out of the reference to Isaiah.

 

Jesus himself in Mark 16 said one of the signs that would follow believers was the speaking in tongues. Jesus did not say this sign was given until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Good try Bri Guy but that is really far fetched.

Jesus told the Apostles to go to an upper room in Jerusalem and to tarry and there they would be filled with the Holy Ghost and power. That they would be endued with the power from on high. When God poured out his spirit upon the 120 they spoke in tongues. These tongues were known tongues but they were not known to the 120 who were speaking them. This was a supernatural event. This was a sign to the unbelievers that 120 uneducated and unlearned people could speak in languages they could not normally speak in. That these of the Galilean dialect were now speaking in languages of the people in the crowd outside the upper room. This was to show the crowd the supernatural.

Peter preached his first sermon and related this happening to a prophecy from Joel that in the last days God was going to pour out his spirit upon all flesh. When the Holy Spirit convicted the people they cried out to Peter for answer to what they were to do and he replied, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This was the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

In Acts when Peter preached to Cornelius house and the Bible said that the gentiles were filled with the Holy Ghost what was it that told the Jews they had been filled with the spirit. They spoke in tongues and prophesied. It was a sign to the Jewish believers that these Gentiles now had been filled with the Holy Ghost. They heard them speak in tongues.

Later in Acts Paul finds some disciples of John the Baptist and he asked them a question. "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you have believed." You see they had already believed on Jesus because of John. They told him they had not even heard of such a thing as the Holy Ghost.
Paul asked them how they were baptized and they said with John's baptism. Paul rebaptized them in the Name of Jesus. Then he laid hands on them and the Bible said they were filled with the Holy Ghost. How did Paul know they were filled. They spoke in tongues and prophesied. Again a sign that they had received the Holy Ghost.

When Paul taught the Corinthian church about these things it was to correct some errors in their midst. In chapter 12 Paul spoke about 9 gifts of the spirit. One of those gifts are Unknown Tongues and another is the interpretation of the tongues. These are gifts of the spirit.
This is a supernatural way God chose to speak to the church to edify them. In chapter 14 he explained how these gifts are supposed to operate.

In chapter 13 Paul did say that prophesies shall cease along with tongues and knowledge but he said this would only happen when that which is perfect came. Some try to say the perfect is the Bible but there are no scriptures to prove this but just a shoddy attempt to say Tongues ceased.

In chapter 14 Paul taught that he that speaks in tongues speaks unto God and that he speaks great mysteries. How do we speak to God? In prayer
He said that he who prophesies edifies the church but he that speaks in tongues edifies himself.
Paul said he wished all could speak in tongues. He did say that tongues do not edify the church unless there is an interpretation.

Paul did say he prayed in tongues and he prayed with understanding which means he prayed in his native language. That he sang in tongues but he also sang with understanding.

The reason Paul said tongues were a sign to unbelievers because Isaiah had prophesied tongues and that they would be spoken by gentiles but the Jews still would not believe. Who at this time was fighting against the church? Jews.

Paul himself said not to forbid speaking in tongues and prophesying yet there are those who have raised themselves up above Paul and say tongues ceased.

Not all tongues are of God. There are counterfeit tongues. There are churches who teach people to speak in what they call tongues but they are not of God. This does not negate the fact that tongues do exist today because people abuse this gift.

Other people have given experiences of what they have heard so I am also going to give what I personally heard.

I was in a meeting when a message of tongues was given by a man and then the interpretation to the message was given by a woman on the other side of the building. In the meeting sat a Hebrew scholar and after the service he went to the man and asked him how long he had been speaking Hebrew and if he was a Jew. The man told him that he did not speak Hebrew and that he was a farmer and only had a 10th grade education. The scholar told him that the language he was speaking in was pure Hebrew. He then found the lady who had given the interpretation of the tongues and asked her the same questions. How long have you spoken and understood Hebrew? The woman told him she did not know Hevbrew at all. That she was a housewife and only had a high school degree. The scholar was so convicted that he sought out ministers and came to Christ that night. He later told the preachers that when the man gave the message in tongues he knew what was being said and when the woman gave the interpretation she interpreted correctly.

The gifts of tongues and interpretation that was used that night edified the Church but it also was a sign to an unbeliever that God was in the place and brought him to Christ. A Jew of all people.

 

In 1970 I knelt down by a chair at 15 years old and asked God to give me whatever he had for me.
It was like someone poured a bucket of ice water on me. I began to shake and then suddenly I began to speak in tongues. I did not know what was happening so no one can say I was duped or hypnotized to believe I spoke in tongues. I was not praying to Satan but to God. There was no Pentecostal or Charismatic person around me. I was alone in prayer with God. This is why no one will ever convince me tongues are not of God.

 

We need to remember that Biblical tongues were actual languages. In the Book of Acts they said, "How hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" They understood the disciples in their mother tongue or language. The modern-tongue movement only started at the beginning of the twentieth century around 1900. Before that time the occasional heretical group spoke in tongues but it was basically unheard of. And the tongues that is spoken today is gibberish, not real languages.

The Mormon prophet, Brigham Young said that the pure Adamic language is "speaking in tongues."
So, words in the the Adamic Dictionary are really written like this:

pAy
lAy
aLe

Punctuation: There is none, except in some imported foreign words. In those, a hyphen ( ) may appear, but it is not always present. One thing is for sure, if it has a hyphen, it is a word borrowed from a Terrestrial (or Telestial) language.

Alphabet:

P, A, L, E, Y In Adamic, this is the order of the letters of the alphabet.

Side note: (from the Mormon Website) By coincidence the British theologian, William Paley had revealed onto him, by the Angel Moroni, this same knowledge, way back in 1794. This was 30 years before the Angel contacted Joseph Smith! Afterwards, Paley wrote a book about his experiences with the Angel, in which he discusses the multifaceted and versatile language, Adamic. The name of his book is "A View of the Evidences of the New Christianity". This work is still widely bought by Mormons. It's available from free from the Mormon Church (LDS) or maybe from Amazon.com. (Note: Not to be confused with S. William Paley who founded KSL Radio in Utah, in 1929). The Mormon prophet, Brigham Young said that the pure Adamic language is "speaking in tongues."
That's it! You can now honestly write on job applications and such, that you speak a second language. Remember, Adamic is the Official Language of Heaven. Study it now and you will stand out head and shoulder above everyone else when Judgment comes.
http://nowscape.com/mormon/Adamic.htm

There are many websites and pamphlets published by Charismatics that teach you how to speak in tongues much like Brigham Young taught the Mormons to speak in tongues. Is it of God? NO! Does it give understanding? Well Brigham Young says that it is the language of Heaven; but he was deceived. It is just nonsensical gibberish with no meaning at all.

One speaking in tongues may be filled with a spirit, but definitely not the Holy Spirit. Tongues have ceased.
DHK

 

Can you show me scriptural references that tells me that I am supposed to do these things?

You asked me if I receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and yes I did, the moment I was saved. Only people alive at the initial dispensation of the Spirit were able to believe first then receive the Spirit later. No Jew needed a "second" experience after Acts 2. No samaritan after Acts 8 and no Gentile after Acts 10.


It's already apparant that this thread is fruitless because someone stated their experience and said that is why no one will convince them it isn't from God. Not even the Holy Spirit can show you the truth. Without a willingness to test the spirit you can never know.

~Lorelei

 

This sounds all too familiar. I remember a story about a woman named Eve who was seduced into tasting the fruit. It was real alright, but it wasn't God that tempted her.

~Lorelei

 

Let us consider a few things about the phenomena of tongues. First, what happened in the Bible was called the gift of tongues, and it was a spiritual gift. What goes on today is not a gift, but rather a phenomena. The difference between the two are wide and varied.
The doctrinal issues surrounding spiritual gifts, and tongues in particular, are discussed in 1Cor.12-14, while the historical instances of speaking in tongues are recorded in only three places in Acts: in chapters 2, 10, and 19. What do these three chapters in 1Corinthians teach about tongues?

12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
--Paul addresses many problems in the church at Corinth: adultery, divisions, court suits, divorce, the resurrection, and here the abuse of spiritual gifts, especially tongues. He says that he doesn’t want you to be ignorant of them. Look what Paul says about these believers in Corinth in the first chapter:
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
In verse 5, he says that they are enriched by him in all utterance, and in all knowledge. And in verse 7, he says that they come behind in no gift! They had all the gifts of the Spirit, none were lacking. The problem was that they were being abused.
Paul reminds them of their gentile background before they were saved. They worshipped dumb idols. They were even involved in demonism. Behind every idol is a demon. Now there were some that were speaking in tongues just to look spiritual, but did not actually have the gift. To them it was an ecstatic experience that made them feel good. Scores of foreign syllables poured out which they thought praised God. In reality, the language they were speaking was no language at all, and the spirit they were speaking by was not the Holy Spirit. They were not praising God the Creator, but the god of this world. Thus Paul rebukes them in saying:

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
--If you were speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit you would not possibly be calling Jesus Christ accursed (which apparently was happening by some of those speaking in another tongue, although they may not have realized it themselves).
For all of you that speak in tongues how do you know who you are praising? How can you guarantee that you are praising God and not the devil? Satan is the greatest of all imitators. He can imitate almost any experience you may think of. How do you know that what you have is of God? Do you base your experience on “experience” alone, or do you base it on the Word of God? Is it possible that you too have been deceived like some of the early Corinthians?
More to come.
DHK

 

Singer,

Those 7 things do not have the promise of protection from Satan. You are not EVER kept from the temptation of Satan. As long as you are alive on this earth, the devil can tempt you. There is NO safety from temptation.

The Bible says to try the spirit to see if it is of God or not.

HOW can you do that, when speaking in 'tongues' and you don't know what you are saying????

Can you DO what the Bible says to do, in regards to the spirits? Can you see if it is of God?

NOPE.

The Pentecost experience was for the furthering of the Kingdom of God. Those people UNDERSTOOD, what the Apostles were preaching. It was for the EDIFICATION of the Church, not just one person.

This miracle, this gift, made it possible for all those people to hear the Gospel and be saved. It wasn't for them to have 'an unbelievable spiritual experience that felt undescribable'.

The phenomena that is occuring today is either one of two things. A manefestation of the flesh, or a manefestation of a spirit. Since we know that it is NOT God, because He gave us the test to try the spirits, and He wouldn't send a spirit that cannot be tested, we can only assume that it is an evil spirit, working deception.

God Bless

 

Bible-belted, Thanks for your nice post. It is nice to be challanged on the merits of my argument rather then the ectasy of someones experience.

Two points here: First, When Paul said Tongues were a sign to unbelievers he was talking about inbelieving Isreal. When tongues were spoken, the few times we see in the NT there were always Jewish people present. That is why Paul used the verse he used from Isaiah. The verse addressed Isreal and so did Paul, to suggest otherwise is discounting the obvious.
Second, read the passage from Isaiah 28:

11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[12] To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
[13] But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
[14] Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

When was Isreal, Broken, snared, and taken? Of course right around 70ad is when this happened. I see it as clear teaching and fulfillment of prophecy. So it was written, so it was done. Just for the record I am not yet convinced that the "perfection" spoken was the Bible so the rest of your argument doesn't count for me.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Hrhema, You said in your long post that Paul said in 1 Cor. 14 that he who speaks in tongues edyifies himself. Your right he did say that and he was saying that as a negative. He was saying that cause people were spouting off "tongues" everywhere to make themselves look important and feel good. This chapter is a rebuke not a promotion of tongues Look at 1 Cor. 12:7 below in 2 versions

1 Cor. 12: KJV

7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


1 Cor. 12: NASB

But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit (12) for the common good.

Paul had just written that spiritual gifts are ONLY to edify the "church" or "assembly". He would not say 2 chapters later that tongues can edify a individual and it is OK. Context Context Context is the whole thing here. Read 1 Cor. 14 with the rebuke in mind and see how it ALL changes.

In Love and truth,
Brian