Tongues

I've read the stories of Christians here who were saved, and then received the Holy Ghost (i.e., spoke in tongues), as much as a year or more after they were saved.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Why would an already saved Christian need tongues?

 

Singer said:

Singer has offered no scripture to support these.

Singer said:

Singer meant the answer to be no.

I proved this wrong according to the scripture.

Singer said:

I proved this wrong according to the scripture.

Singer said:

I proved this wrong according to the scripture.

Singer said:

I proved this wrong according to the scripture.

Singer said:

I proved this wrong according to the scripture.

It's no wonder Singer refuses to give scriptural support for what they experience.

Singer, do you have anything to say about the evidence here?

~Lorelei

 

Hi Carol and Singer too, I noticed you both have posted but not addressed my questions. I wanted you to know that I asked the questions with true concern. As I re-read my post above I can see how it could be offensive if taken the wrong way. I meant it with sincerity and not sarcasm.

In Christian Love,
Brian.

P.S. I don't see tongues as an issue that defines a "child of God" as even Peter and Paul had at least one disagreement. I do contend however that one who speaks in tongues in almost, if not all cases, did so before ever seeing what God's word says about it. The tongues HAVE to be real languages, have to edify the church, have to be interpreted to even minimally qualify as the NT gift of "tongues".

 

I have shown you in the Word. I showed you from the Bible. Please address each reference and tell me how it is wrong.

You have offered no scripture, in fact you have ranted that you are not required to.

So are you saying that what they wrote in the Bible is not God's Word?

It isn't quenching the spirit to expect it to obey it's own teachings.

What is the Bible good for if we can't use it as a guide to see what is and is not from God?

~Lorelei

 

Lorelei wrote,

Just one! How about John 6:62-65. I've got more though since I know that you will refuse the Word anyhow.


Also you wrote,

It was sure unknown to me. I am an English speaking person. I know some Spanish and I think I can recognize French but that's about it.

I am not waiting. It appears that you aren't either. The church waited/tarried in Jeusalem until they received it. The baptism of the Spirit and the born-again experience are 2 different things. The apostles and others were "saved" before Pentecost.

Not quite so. There were many nationalites present on Pentecost. The Medes heard their language not the language of the Cretes. The Egyptians heard their tongue not the Romans.

Since we both speak English then I'd first say that you need to get an English Bible. Otherwise I think we can make out what one another is saying. You seem to be confused. When someone speaks in tongues and it is interpreted it is the Spirit of God doing the speaking to the church not the individual trying to say something to the church.

 

One is not eligible for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost unless the one has first been born-again and sanctified. The the Spirit can move in and indwell in the temple of the Lord. He does this to empower the christian for service. When He fully comes He speaks in another tongue to testify that He now dwells in that temple. No man can tame His own tongue but the Spirit can and that is why that He uses the tongue as proof that He now indwells.

John the Baptist was the first New Testament minister to introduce us to the Holy Ghost as a baptism. He said, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Matthew 3:11). In reference to the Holy Ghost, the Prophet Ezekiel wrote many hundreds of years before: "... I will put my spirit within you..." (Ezekiel 36:27). Christ, in speaking of the Holy Ghost, told His followers, "... for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:17).

The Apostle Paul made mention of our bodies being the temple of the Holy Ghost, and Him being in us (I Corinthians 6:19). Christ told His disciples that He would go away one day, and that He would pray to the Father that He would send them another Comforter (John 14:16).

In John 14:26, He told who this Comforter is: the Holy Ghost. His mission is to comfort, reprove, teach, guide, and empower. He was come to dwell in the sanctified believers. He was to come after Christ ascended back to heaven (Acts 1:2-5). Acts 2:1-4, gives the spiritual account of the initial outpouring of the Holy Ghost upon the believers, which numbered at that time about 120. Cloven tongues like as of fire appeared on each of them, and they spoke with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. God used cloven tongues to show that the Holy Ghost's full baptism would always be accompanied by the speaking in other tongues.

A curious crowd of onlookers began to mock and accuse them of being drunken, but Peter stood up and began to preach to them under the anointing of the Spirit, and 3,000 were converted and added to the Church. Peter emphasized the prophecy of Joel by stating that, "... the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).

The Holy Ghost baptism is a gift which God gives to the sanctified believer to guide him, comfort him, instruct him, and empower him. If you are a believer, and your heart has been made clean by the sanctifying blood of Christ, you are eligible for this gift of God. You must desire to receive this gift. Ask and believe that God will give the Holy Ghost baptism to you.

When He comes in, He will testify for Himself by using your speech apparatus, speaking through you. He will give you holy boldness and a special joy that no one can adequately describe. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is for you if you are eligible to receive it. Don't sell yourself short on any blessing that God has for you. "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" (Matthew 7:7).

 

BTW, If women are to keep silence then why do they have so much to say here and why are they allowed. Reall, Just wondering.

 

Victory Leader, Nice to have you on the board. I posed some quetions in an above post that you nor any other tongues speaker have answered. Please address those questions for me so I see where you are coming from. Also, I explained how spiritual gifts work and no one has challanged me so I must be right If you haven't read my posts I forgive you. Please read them so we can converse further. Thanks.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Please show me more then because this verse has nothing to do with quivering.

The word quiver is not here and the word quicken means to give life, not to shake uncontrollably. So tell me how this verse is even relevant, or share with me others that you have that are.

So you do admit then that tongues are real earthly languages?

The only reason the apostles believed first and then received the Spirit was because the Spirit couldn't be sent yet.

I have already stated in this thread that no one received a Holy Spirit baptism after belief once their nationality received the promised Spirit for the first time. No where after Pentecost did a Jew believe first and later receive the Spirit, it just didn't happen.

Not quite so. There were many nationalites present on Pentecost. The Medes heard their language not the language of the Cretes. The Egyptians heard their tongue not the Romans. </font>[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Like I said they all understood in their own languages. This sounds like you are making my point for me.

I am not confused about what tongues are. What I am confused about is how you try to justify tongues by using Acts 2 as an example and then try to justify speaking in an unknown tongue around me. Wouldn't I hear it in my own English language anyway, that wouldn't sound like a unknown tongue to me, now would it?

Do you speak in tongues around other people who speak your language, and if so, then why don't they hear you speaking in their own language?

You other post had many points that need to be corrected, but if we don't focus on them one at a time the truth will be lost in all the spin. So please address the issues that are presented then we can move on.

~Lorelei

 

Singer,
Is there a difference in the tongues that are spoken today, and the tongues that were spoken in Apostolic times? If so can you point out the differences?
DHK

 

Hi Singer, just hoping you will address mine and DHK's questions. Looking forward to your responses.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Did Peter say this on the day of Pentecost?

This is a yes or no question.


~Lorelei

 

Singer, why don't you address the questions that were previously asked of you?

BTW, there is NO Biblical evidence supporting a view of subsequent "baptism of the Spirit". This is clearly eisegesis on the part of Pentecostals.

 

But on the day of Pentecost everyone understood clearly and in their own languages. So sorry, this has nothing to do with what you call speaking in tongues.

~Lorelei

PS. Am I one of the people you were referring to? </font>[/QUOTE]

 

(Singer)

There was a big difference. The tongues of the Apostolic times were real languages. The tongues of today are gibberish, a bunch of syllables run together that don’t make another language at all. By all professional linguistic examinations they have never determined the modern day tongue phenomena to be actual languages. They were actual languages in the New Testament—unknown to the speaker but known to the hearer. This is evidenced by Acts 2, where there was as many as 13 different language groups mentioned all saying: “how here we every man in our own tongue or language?”

Tongues of Apostolic times served a definite purpose:
1. They were used for the purpose of revelation. When interpretation was given it was one of the ways that God revealed his word to the church for the Bible was not complete yet. (1Cor.13:8-13).
2. It was used for a sign to the unbelieving Jew (1Cor.14:21,22). Other than these two purposes, tongues had no purpose. If you have a completed Bible you don’t need tongues. If you don’t have unsaved Jews present in your church, you don’t need tongues.

The Book of Acts is a transitional book of history. The only baptism of the Spirit that happens now happens when one is saved. There is no other. Tongues in not a sign that accompanies salvation. It does not accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You will have to demonstrate that by Scripture.

1 Cor l4:2 is not the gift that requires interpretation that is described. It is the edification (or a person's spirit that is praying) as verse l4 says: "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful". Likewise, I did not know (understand) what I was praying during that event, but my spirit prayed to God and I was edified. My dictionary says edify means to build up spiritually. The bible does not WARN us against this practice, it encourages it. The result of the spirit praying is spiritual improvement or establishment.

What does 1Cor.14:2 say:
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

First, keep in mind that the gift of tongues is given to the church. It was always to be used publicly and for the edification of the church. It is not a prayer language, was never intended for prayer. It was intended for the edification of the church. This chapter Paul is contrasting the benefits of prophecy over the disadvantages of speaking in tongues.
This is a rebuke as Briguy says. Paul says you are not edifying the church so stop doing it. You are only making yourself a nuisance, and being selfish with your gift. No one understands you he says, so what is the benefit in you speaking in tongues. You are speaking mysteries. That is a useless thing to do, and it is wrong, as he further explains in the chapter. If you do not have an interpreter, shut up and keep quiet!! It is not a prayer language. It is a gift used to edify the church, and if you can’t use it to that end, then don’t.

See above. It is not personal. It is public. In fact look at all the gifts of the Spirit listed in 1Cor.12. Are any of them private gifts. Do we use any of them privately. Every gift was used for the benefit of others. The gift of healing for example, was not a selfish gift given to heal ones own self. It was given for the healing for others. The gift of helps was to help others. Not: “Go ahead, help yourself!”

This was spoken to the believers in Corinth. The sign gifts have ceased. They ceased when the New Testament canon was complete at the end of the first century with the completion of the Book of Revelation. They are not for today. This is the teaching of 1Cor.13:8-13.


[QUOTEAgain the dictionary describes the word withal as
1. thereby
2. therefore
3. a staff to support himself

I read 1Cor 12:7 to say that the manifestation of the Spirit (tongues in this case) is given to me to profit me (every man) withal (to support myself). That same promise if to every man as it says. It is not pertaining to a group of church goers in this case.[/QUOTE]
Again, your interpretation of this verse is selfish. You are thinking only of yourself. Paul is pointing out that the gifts of the spirit were for all the church. You are interpreting it to mean it is for you. But keep in mind he is writing to the church of Corinth.

Don’t add to the Scriptures. It does not say that God is glorified in this. He is not glorified when man does wrong. Your spirit seemingly is edified for your own selfish and carnal purposes, but that does not glorify God, and Paul never said it did. He rebuked them for doing so.

Nope, there is nothing wrong with that. So pray in your spirit, just not in tongues.

So pray and sing, as we do in our church, so that every one can understand you. Not in tongues, but in English, or the vernacular language of the day. Be sure to do “in the spirit,” that is, not carnally, but when you are filled with the spirit, as every believer ought to be—yielded to the Spirit of God. This has nothing to do with the baptism of the Spirit.

Hardly a rebuke?? What was he thankful for? He was thankful because he had been given the gift and had used it biblically whereas they had not used it Biblically. It was a rebuke. Look at the whole passage in context:

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
--I thank my God that I speak more than ye all. The reason was that they were carnal, not spiritual (see 1Cor.3:1)
--Paul says he would rather speak in five words with understanding—just FIVE words. “Hi my name is Paul.” There is your hypothetical five words of understanding. He would rather give an introductory five words that they could understand then 10,000 words in tongues that they could not understand. Please don’t tell me it wasn’t a rebuke.

Do you deliberately misread the intent and purpose of Paul writing these verses? This is one of the strongest rebukes that Paul gives. It goes along with verse 27.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
--The most that could speak in tongues in the church is two, or at the most three, and then it had to be orderly—on at a time. This is not the normal practice in Charismatic churches today. The next condition set forth and reemphasized in both of these verses is that there had to be an interpreter. Both 27 and 28 state this. Verse 27: “and let one interpret.”
Verse 28: “If there be no interpreter let him keep silence in the church.” It can’t be any plainer. This was not permission to pray in an unknown tongue, for the gift was given to the church, never to be used selfishly. Even the context of this passage bears this out. “two or at the most three,” (in the church), not in private.

In the first century.

Something the Charismatics have yet to learn.

First it is not the unpardonable sin; it is deception.
Secondly, it is not a private gift, or a prayer language.
Thirdly, it is a gift to be used to edify the church and was given to the church.
Fourth. It was given only to the churches of the first century. It is not for today. What you have is a counterfeit. Tongues have ceased (1Cor.13:8).
Fifth, tongues of today cannot be attributed to the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit never goes contrary to His Word.
DHK