Tongues

"For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." (I Cor 13:9-12)
YOUR argument falls apart when it meets this passage, my friend. Paul says that 'then' he will know FULLY. What does that mean? He will understand God's truth as presented in the Bible to the maximum level possible for anyone who isn't God. Your dispute on this point isn't just with me, it's also with Paul and the Holy Spirit.
Now, at what point does this happen? Since the passage quoted above is part of a continuous unit, 'then' must refer to 'when the perfect comes.'
So Paul said that when the perfect comes, HE, PERSONALLY, will understand fully. You contend that this refers to the completion of the Bible on earth. The problem is that when that happened, PAUL WAS WITH THE LORD! If you can reconcile that one, you're good!
But I'm not done yet! In the other half of verse 12, Paul refers to 'then,' the point 'when the perfect comes,' as when WE no longer see as in a mirror dimly, but face to face. 'We' in that context refers to 'all believers.' So when the perfect comes, all believers will understand perfectly. Not all who are currently in existence, but ALL. Again, that can only refer to the 'New Heaven and new earth' of Rev 21:1. Prior to the final judgment there will still be mortal believers who will not know fully. With the completion of the judgment and the passing away of the current sin-contaminated universe, all believers will know fully.
DHK, your post is an interesting exercise in religious philosophy, but it does not contain one direct reference to Scripture, and doesn't answer any of my specific arguments about the passage in question. As the charismatics start with tongues and work from there, you seem to be starting with your philosophy and working from there. Maybe it's old fashioned of me, but I'll keep starting with what the Bible actually says and work from THERE.

 

DHK

You have skillfuly used the word of God against itself to justify the areas you beleive not to be true. Prophecy and knowledge for example. You stated that if these gifts were present today they would be adding to God's word. If you are speaking of the word John received on Patmos that know man may add to it or take away you are correct. However we still receive knowledge from God. He still speaks to his people thru dreams and vision. If he dosen't then everybody that says God called them into any ministry is lieing. When a person says God told or moved me to go to a certain place they would be in error. Since we know this not to be true God still reveals himself to his people. Do you know of anybody that ever said God placed in their heart/mind to do something. Perhaps you have been tainted by misuse of these gifts, or only see the hocus pocus part of it that some have used for material gain. I do not know your experiences. I have on ocassion received a word of knowledge to do something because something was going to happen. did not add a single word to the word only fulfilled it. A person was saved; that is the only reason we have any gift. To point a person to God thru Christ.

Are you aware that when you say singer or anybody else that says they beleive and have had these expereinces are not receiving them from God. Therefore it is not false teaching you are accussing them of but operationg under the influence of demonic spirits. This being true usng the word of God which has power you are in essence trying to cast out a demon from someone, but you would not do that because you claim those gifts are no longer needed today and have ceased.

It is not good to say since God has not given you the ability to do something he won't give it to anyone else.

Some of the things you say are common teachings of Jehovah Witnesses. I know this because I go to the streets and dispute their false teachings.

Some things can only be spiritually discerned

 

DHK
I am not accusing you of being a JW or of spreading their doctrine. Only using an illustration as you did about mormons.

God Bless

 

Wow, good discussion going here. Has anyone noticed that Walguy is the only one who is disecting the Scripture to validate his argument? Since he claims to have the gift of Knowledge (I believe he does) this makes sense. DHK, Frank, Time have quoted scripture but have not dug deeply in to it. There is a difference and I think that is showing.

DHK, you have not dealt directly with the deep scriptual arguments, even the first question about K,P having one ending time and T another. Also please address the last scripture argument that Walguy made. As for me I look at things more practical. The "gifts" were given to the church to complete the "body". Paul speaks of all the different body parts in 1 Cor. 12. He says the gifts are given so that the "body (local assembly) can be fully equiped. I se no reason or scripture to point to a time when God would not equip the assembly to do his work. It makes sense that 1 Cor. 12 would still be for us today. Also, I believe the service gifts still exist because scripture is clear to me that the "perfect" is the eternal state. I do not believe "perfect" can be the Bible because this earth and mankind is still under a curse, which creates a view of God that is through a glass darkly or mirror dimly. Anyway, If I accept the perfect has not yet come then I accept that there are "gifts" still in exsistance. Even you DHK have a problem with "helps" how about "governments" (administration). It is hard to look at some of the listed gifts and make them into something that others would see as miraculous. If they were not obviously supernatural in their use and how they were seen it negates your claim that they were all the gifts were "sign" gifts.

Enough for now. Great discussion, Lets keep it going.

Singer and Carol, What are your feelings about the deeper scriptual things that Walguy pointed out?

In Christ,
Brian

 

Yes, I believe that these verses in Rev.22:18,19 apply not just to the Book of Revelation, but to the entire Word of God, as the Book of Revelation completed the canon of Scripture.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

If you still receive knowledge from God you set yourself up as another Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell, or perhaps even Mohammed, all of whom received revelation from God. They all claimed that they received knowledge from God outside of the Bible--dreams and visions.

I was a pastor and then a missionary. God called me by His Spirit to preach His Word. He called me into the ministry. He called me to a specific mission field. He led me to various places--even overseas. I have lived a life of faith and of the leading of the Holy Spirit probably more than most people that I have encountered in my Christian life. God did not lead me through dreams and visions. He led me primarily through the Word of God, prayer, and giving me a settled peace as to what was the will of God for my life.

A person is saved entirely apart from any gift of the Spirit. He is saved through the gospel (1Cor.15:1-4. He is saved by hearing the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. One cannot be saved apart from the Word of God, and the gospel message contained therein. It does not take any spiritual gift to be saved.

What singer had was an experience, but it definitely was not of God for the following reasons:
1. God does not give gifts for selfish reasons. The gifts were given to the local church for the edification of the local church. Name one gift that was given for the selfish use of the individual.

2. Look at 1Cor.14:21,22. Study it. Tongues were given as a sign to the unbelieving Jews. Were there any unbelieving Jews present when Singer spoke in tongues? No. Case closed.

God does not contradict Himself. The gifts have ceased. He doesn't give them to anyone.

I dare say some of the things you believe you also have in common with the Jehovah's witnesses also. That's what makes a cult, a cult. It is truth mixed with error.
DHK

 

So far so good.

“That” which is perfect is the Word of God. Paul never saw the completion of the Word of God. As you state, he was with the Lord when that event happened, and he states the case in the future, as one who is looking forward to this event. Unfortunately it never happened in his lifetime.

I am sorry, as I mentioned before, a belief such as the above borders on heresy. Only God has perfect knowledge. Only God is omniscient. You have yet to address that. No where in the text does it even suggest that anyone will have perfect knowledge. Paul says:

“now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
To know yourself better or more maturely. The contrast is with the child. He became a man. He became more mature. A man does not become perfect. He never attains perfection or perfect knowledge. But in his Christian growth he does become more mature.
This is applicable to tongues. I once was a child, he says, and spake as a child. This alludes to the gift of tongues, one of the least of all the gifts (12:28), an immature gift (ch.14). Now he became a man and put away childish things (tongues), and uses the gift of prophecy much more. As time went on Paul had much more of the Scripture to rely on. While in prison he writes to Timothy and tells him to bring the Scriptures, but especially the parchments.
2Tim.4:13 The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
“parchments” especially the parchments--containing perhaps some of his inspired
Epistles themselves. (Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown).

They will know fully what? There are some presumptions or assumptions here on your part.

Actually I have given plenty of Scripture that seems to go ignored. What else goes ignored is the plain fact that there is a deliberate tampering of changing the definitions of “prophecy” and “knowledge” as used by first century Christians. That is dishonest exegesis.

As for Scripture:
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--God does not speak through visions, dreams, prophecy, revelatory knowledge, etc., as he did in the Old Testament. He speaks to us through His Son Who is revealed to us through the Word of God. Any other way may be considered unscriptural. This is precisely why we do not consider Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, Charles Taze Russell prophets today. God speaks through His Word. His Son is revealed through His Word—not prophecy, not the gift of revelation, not visions, and dreams—but the Word of God.

James 1:22-25
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
--James calls the Word of God the “perfect” law of liberty. It is perfect.
He compares it (as does Paul) to a mirror. If you just listen to it, and don’t obey it, you are as one who looks into a mirror and then can’t remember if you shaved or combed your hair. You’re a spiritual disaster.
If you look into the mirror of God’s Word and obey what is there, you shall be blessed, and grow in grace and mature as a Christian ought to. Paul uses the same illustration.

Psalm 19:7 also calls the Word of God perfect.
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Look at Peter’s testimony concerning God’s Word:

2Peter 1:16-19
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

--Charismatics love their experiences like tongues, baptism of the spirit, etc. Their experiences pale to the experience that Peter had. He describes it here. He was on the Mount, when he saw Jesus glorified or transfigured before him. He also saw Moses and Elijah transfigured before him. It was the most glorious experience any mortal being could ever experience: standing before the glorified Christ, and Moses and Elijah as well. He also hears the very voice of God booming out of Heaven: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” What an awesome experience!!

Then note carefully what he says. We have also a more sure word of prophecy. He is referring to the New Testament Scriptures here. He is saying that better than the greatest experiences that you may ever enjoy is the settled reliability of the Word of God. Look to it. It is a more sure Word. It is more certain than experience. Ground yourself in the Word of God.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--The context is revelation. These are the three sign gifts: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. They will all end.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
--We have now only part of the total revelation of God. For this reason these three sign gifts are given. They are given up until the revelation of God will be completed.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
--When that which is perfect (O.E. word means completed, i.e. the Word of God) is come), then that which is in part (the temporary sign gifts) will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
--When I was an immature Christian I did immature things and sought after the more immature gifts such as tongues (12:28). Now I have become a man, more mature, and have put away such immature gifts.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
--I see through a glass darkly, because the Word of God is not complete. The Old Testament reveals only in part that which I should know about myself and my destiny. But when the Bible is perfected or completed I shall know more fully or completely. Just as a man looks face to face in a mirror, I will be able to look into the completed Word of God, and the Spirit of God will reveal to me as never before my faults, my frailty, and even my destiny. Why? I will see Jesus more clearly as ever before in the Word of God. That is where he will be revealed to me (Heb.12:1). See also John 1:1,14,18; and Rev.19:13

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
--Note carefully that the spiritual gifts were compared to faith, hope and charity. Faith hope and charity are not gifts. The others are, but faith and hope and love are not gifts. The gifts were given for a temporary period of time which is now past. Faith and hope will end at the coming of Christ. Only love will endure forever. To say that these temporary gifts (the spiritual gifts) are greater than faith and hope is to do injustice to the context of this passage.
DHK

 

DHK,

Am Im mistaking you stating that the bible is the "word" of God and not the actual person (jesus)?

I see the bible as a book about God and man.
inspired by the holy spirit. but still a book.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

am I misunderstanding your post?

Me2

 

Wait a minute Me2, I thought you believed in universal salvation. You just posted a scripture that has Jesus contradicting your belief.

But coming from "just a book", I guess what is written in it isn't really that important anyhow.

 

tuor,

My beliefs are multilayered.

Jesus christ is assemblying a body to represent him throughout eternity.

the selection of the father of Christs body are within and throughout mankind in all nationalities throughout all times.

just being chosen gets you into heaven. even if you become rebellious against God.
but this life is about the process of sanctification which prepares the believer to become a member of Gods ambassadors of reconciliation.

Christ Died for all. but "christians" live by faith believing God has shown them their very futuristic death, judged them, and saved them before their actual physical death. We "Live in our future" today. Even though all will die and be judged and initially found Guilty. I understand that all are under the curse and all are to be found guilty. all are to be covered by the sacrifice of the creator.

but Christ has defeated death. there is no scarey permanent seperation between God and Man. Ever.

We as christian are understanding that God has a plan for man after our death. we are being prepared to receive and forgive and express mercy towards all after death.

do you actually think that we will be floating on clouds in heaven when we die.
sorry dude. we'll be expressing Gods love to Gods creation. recreating its new nature in an environment without sin and evil.

today..we are being trained. experiencing the character of God toward OURSELVES and OUR BROTHERS.
In Christ..some will understand that this life is to be experienced by abiding in the holy spirit under a repentant heart before Christ. If we step out of that abiding environment. we live by choosing our own fate through our own flesh.

as I am asking DHK.. The word is a person. We abide in the Holy Spirit.. If we have the Holy Spirit..We Have the Son. We have the Holy Spirit, We Have the Father.

The three are one Take away one and it goesnt work. and we have to be abiding under the Ministry of the holy Spirit to be able to understand Who we are As Christians and Our Fathers Plans For us and His Creation.

Reading a Book without abiding in the Spirit Means nothing.. We communicate Spirit to Spirit.
We experience understanding. We read in a book and get hints from others lives what happened to us. God Willing.

We neefd to start a thread on this subject..Reading a book as opposed to learning by the spirit,..
The bible doesnt teach Love. and flesh doesnt understand it left to its own wisdom or understanding.

Me2

 

Here is one of the lists of spiritual gifts listed in 1Cor.12:
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Which of these spiritual gifts do you have that fulfill the list that you just gave? The topic is spiritual gifts. These gifts have ceased.

It doesn't take a supernatural spiritual gift to Pray for our daily bread.
DHK

 

Singer,
We all need edification. That may come from others, such as a local church. Paul was discussing that in 1Cor.14. We also edify ourselves as we spend time in prayer and in the Word. No one denies that.

The issue here has always been the existence and the proper use of spiritual gifts. There is no spiritual gift that is given for self-edification--not one: not the gift of helps, nor the gift of miracles, interpretation, administration, teaching, etc. ALL the gifts were given to the CHURCH, to edify the church, never to edify just the person who had the gift. That would be as selfish use of the gift. A good example of that would be "helps." Would God give the gift of helps to someone just to "Help themself? Or, would God give the gift of miracles to someone just to perform miracles on himself? Would God give the gift of tongues just to edify Himself? Absolutely not! It was for the edification of the entire church. That is why an interpreter was required, otherwise they were not to speak in tongues, but were required to keep silence in the church.

Absolutely. I received the Holy Spirit when I believed, and seek for his filling day by day, as I submit to Him.

Eph.5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
DHK

 

Lots of interesting replies since I was here yesterday.
Still not one word about how the different verbs and verb voices and groupings of terms (all three gifts in v. 8 but only knowledge and prophecy in v.9) can be reconciled with either the 'modern tongues' view or the 'all the gifts ended at the same time when the Bible was finished' view.
Looks to me like I'm still winning.

Btw, I think it's unfortunate that one participant in this discussion keeps throwing the word 'heresy' at someone whose specific arguments he can't answer. I forgive you, though.

 

Hi DHK, You spent a lot of time on your posts and made some good points. You did use scripture to support your argument and I for one like that.

In terms of actually addressing the arguments that Walguy and I have made you have addressed in part but have avoided the more difficult questions. Since your posts were so long to respond fully would be too much time for me. Is there on point you made that you feel was very strong that I can respond to? I would like to do it that way. While you think please respond directly to Walguy's question of "verb" uses and my question on "helps" and "governments" (you know, showing themselves as miraculous in their use).

I hope this is an OK way for us to continue. If nothing else it will make for better reading for others.


In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

The different voices and tenses view is a weak argument in my view. It really doesn't prove much. Perhaps it was a change in literary style. It wasn't given much consideration in most of the commentaries that I have read either. The fact of the matter is that Scripture must agree with Scripture. There must be a harmonization of Scripture. What was Paul trying to say in this context. These three gifts: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge were going to cease or end. To define one of the gifts properly, as it was in the first century, and not to define the others in the same way is dishonest exegesis. Why change the meaning of prophecy and knowledge??

The Mormons believe that we all will be Gods. Hey, even Benny Hinn believes something like that. The fact of the matter is that the only One who will have perfect knowledge is God. He alone is omnisicient. To attribute omniscience to anyone else but God is a heretical view. I am not calling you a heretic. I think that you simply misunderstand what the passage is saying. Only God is perfect. Only God has perfect knowledge. I look forward to being with Jesus in Heaven and learning at His feet. I will never cease to learn. I will never attain perfect knowledge. No offence meant.
The meaning of the verse was a comparison. Paul grew from a child into a more mature adult. Paul will grow from a young Christian into a more mature Christian with the completion of the New Testament, as His understanding of Christ will greatly increase.
DHK

 

Walguy:
The context of I Cor. 13 is speaking to the subject of miraculous gifts. So, any grammatical interpretation excluding immediate and remotre contexts of the discussion could lead to a misinterpretaion of the text. Since you are insisting on using grammatical hermeneutics, if we are going to properly interpret any text, let's look at all the principles of interpretation.
As for the Greek grammar, it has been a while since I have examined the chapter in this light. Therefore, I could not respond to your grammatical points at this time. However, I do respect your efforts of scholarship along these lines. It is one of the principles to be used in interpreting any text. I will make an effort to examine the text, again, from this standpoint. And, I will respond to the points you have made.

However, context is a very important factor for any textual exegesis. One may get the meaning of the words correct and not make application to the context.