Catholic Priests leaving the RCC

Catholic Convert, if that's what you think the Gospel Message means to Baptists then no wonder you're a Catholic now. I agree! Your hatred is showing.

Diane

 

I just thought this line was funny:

"I stopped saying the Breviary (the Roman Catholic Church's official prayer for clergy) and the Rosary and began to pray using parts of the Bible itself."

The following would be read if one read all sections of the Breviary today:

Psalm 119:105-112
Psalm 16
Philippians 2:6-11
Luke 1:46-55
Psalm 100
Psalm 118
Daniel 3:52-57
Psalm 150
Ezekiel 36:25-28
Luke 1:68-79
Psalm 110:1-5,7
Psalm 115
Revelation 19:1-7
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
1 John 4:16
Galatians 6:7b-8
Galations 6:9-10
Psalm 4
Psalm 134
Deuteronomy 6:4-7
Luke 2:29-32
Psalm 91
Revelation 22:4-5
Psalm 104

That's all from Saturday Evening Prayer through Sunday Night Prayer (including morning, daytime, evening, and night prayer and the office of readings).

Throw in the Mass Readings of the day:

Jeremiah 17:5-8
1 Corinthians 15:12,16-20
Luke 6:17,20-26

Silly Catholic Church. Supressing his Bible reading.

 

Why is it that Baptists never call each other on their own pride and hatred?

 

I have to agree with Bro. Curtis that Ed probably took some liberty in his description of a Southern Baptist service. That, or he's been reading Jonathan Edwards a little too much

However, he does have a good point- too many Baptist churches preach only part of the gospel message- John 3:16 and so forth. They forget alot about the parts where Christ said following him will be the hardest thing you ever do, and why that is. With such a focus on "get saved and everything will be all right the rest of your life" no wonder some Baptist churches rank in the 30 and 40 thousands of members. There is a real "feel good" mentality to it.

Following Christ and being his disciple has more to it than the intellectual submission to Jesus Christ.

 

Nobody I have ever listened to has told me following Christ is easy. But accepting his perfect sacrifice is easy. I would say the hardest thing about being a true Christian is when you try and live outside God's will.

I have also never heard a "Get saved and everything will be O.K. for the rest of you life" Such a sermon would be unbiblical. If you hear one, let the preacher know about the book of Job.

But I do agree with you that there are a whole lot of apostate Baptist Churches.

 

Bob Ryan,

Thanks for the link. Mary Ann Pakiz sure had a testimony as to how God was faithful to her in her search for God's truth. You sure cannot get more Scriptural than she offered in her writing.

I read the term ' a bit about Jesuit causistry (the end justifies the means),

This leads me to believe that this philosophy could be used to do evil as long as the end turns out the way you want it to come about.

Do you have more of an understanding of this 'Jesuit causistry,' than I do? I'm ready to learn.

"Ray"

 

Yes, Bob, post more links, because they just have to be true. Heaven forbid the Internet provide false information.

Like that the Breviary isn't laced with Scripture.

Or how about this little doozy from your latest link:

"The Roman Catholic system teaches that all authority comes from God, but that God has appointed the Catholic system to be the guardian of His authority.

(just a few lines later)

The Roman Catholic Church declares that God's authority is not sufficient to oblige men to believe and bow to it; it seeks to place church authority above God's authority."

*does double take*

But she just said...but...the two things...contradict....*cough* *sputter*

I give up.

 

Cordially. Are you kidding? Reminds me of a favorite verse of mine. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:22
Murph

 

Hi Mike,

Would you please show me where, in Scripture, the Gospel is described as you describe it?

The Gospel is that our God has been made King through the Paschal Mystery of the Passion, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of the God-Man, Jesus Christ, and that it is through this great eschatological event that our God has dealt with sin and death justly, thus blessing all the nations through His servant Israel.

The term "Gospel" isn't an invention of Paul or any of the Apostles. It comes from Isaiah 52:7, which precedes Isaiah 53.

If you think "the Gospel" is a timeless system of salvation, you haven't been reading your Bible. You've been attending a Baptist Church.

Certainly, the Gospel has soteriological implications when one submits to God's Kingship, but the Gospel is not to be equated with "how one gets saved". It is that our God has been made King.

In the Coucil of Trent cursings the Catholic Church curses anyone who believes what I just posted up there

You do not know what you criticize.

Trent, in issuing "anathema sit" statements, isn't cursing anyone. This is a formal declaration that whoever obstinately denies various articles of faith or embraces heretical doctrines are prone to excommunication. These statements were only directed at Catholics and were then juridically applied through the process of canon law.

The problem with ex-Catholics is that they think they know Catholicism because they were "raised Catholic". I have news for you, brother. Just because you were "raised Catholic" doesn't mean that you know squat. I underwent 12 years of supposed "religious education" (composed of memorizing the "Hail Mary" and constructing useless collages) and sat through Mass every Sunday without ever being taught the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, which is the source and summit of the Christian life.

It wasn't until college that I was educated in the Bible and Christian doctrine.

 

Carson:

Why do you assume that ex-Catholics left the Catholic church because they really didn't understand the Catholic faith? I can assure that is not the case among the ex-Catholics that I know.

Why are you so angry with ex-Catholics?

 

Priscilla,

All of the ex-Catholics that tend to post their testimonies online and get routed here to the BB demonstrate through their own words that they have incomplete or misguided understandings of the Catholic faith. These people are touted as heroes, but they almost never have a firm grasp on Catholic teaching. I just posted a glaring example of contradictions above.

 

Grace Saves:

I can assure you that before I left the Catholic Church, I studied the Catechism, took RCIA classes, had lengthy discussions with my priest, and read everything I could find on Catholic apologetics (Karl Keating, Scott Hahn, Thomas Howard, etc.) The bottom line was that when I read the New Testament, the church I saw there was not a church focused on its sacraments and rituals, but a church focused on telling others the good news of what Jesus had accomplished on the cross. The New Testament church was one of fellowship, sharing, prayer and the break of bread.

You may disagree with the conclusions reached by ex-Catholics, but do not insult us by accusing us of stupidity and ignorance.

 

I have accused no one of stupidity. And I cannot speak on a person's ignorance. I can speak, however, to glaring flaws in logic and presentation of Catholic doctrine. That, dear sister, is undeniable. I have posted two quick examples above. I've not seen you explain either.

 

Grace Saves:

What exactly is it that you want me to explain? Someone else's understanding of Catholicism?

 

Testing

 

Priscilla,

I'll go over it again. You say that we're angry at ex-Catholics. You said we called them "stupid and ignorant." I said that their testimonies contained glaring flaws and/or contradictions. Many have been posted here on this thread. I posted two examples of what I'm talking about (see one on this page, one on the Breviary on another page). Unless you are going to prove what I have said wrong, it stands that they made mistakes that I easily picked out in their testimonies. That means they are not authentically representing the Catholic faith and yet saying it is wrong all the same. Yes, that doesn't make me very happy.

 

Carson,

You indicated that people actually hear the gospel during a mass, wich led me to say...

And you then said...

If I tried I would still be here 8 hours from now typing away when the sun comes up.

You didnt share the most important part of the Gospel...how one can be justified before God and be eternally saved.

That is through faith, and faith alone in Christ substitutionary work on our behalf.

I appreciate that, but that doesnt have anything to do with what we are talking about. This is now, and right now the gospel...or "good news"...is what saves us.

I'm really not interested in whether its a "timeless system of salvation"(whatever you mean by that) or not. Its what saves us now however.

I am a dispensationalist and I do understand that in different dispensations God had dealt with His people in different ways, but with faith being at the heart of them at all times.(Such as the jews faith in Gods faithfullness to them through the sacrifice of the animals, which represented Christ of course.)

Trust me. I have. I quit neglecting it after I was pulled from the clutches of the CC, and birthed into the body of Christ.

I havent been in a Baptist church for several months now, since the last time I visited my father in laws church. I have fellowshpped in Baptist churches a couple of times during my 24 years as a child of God, and I thank God for the baptists, but I dont see eye to eye with them in some areas, which is no big deal of course, and we currently attend a non-denominational charismatic fellowship. I do agree with the baptists in some very wonderful areas, such as the truth of our complete eternal security as children of God.

Submitting to Gods Kingship will affect our walk here on earth, but that is not a condition for salvation. That would be a gospel of works.

It most certainly is. What you are referring to could be said much more accuratly by saying that the Gospel not only affects escaping hell and gaining heaven, but also how to experience a new, and abundant life here and now.

But the former(salvation) is not determined by the latter(new life). Rather, the latter is determied by the former.

That part of the gospel, no doubt.

I said...

And you said...

Well, lets see...

God says this(just one verse among multitudes)...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

And the CC says...

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed (Canon 9).

If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed (Canon 12).

Canon 8. If anyone says that by the sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred ex opere operato, but that faith alone in the divine promise is sufficient to obtain grace, let him be anathema.

Canon 16. If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation, let him be anathema

Canon 3. If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism,[11] let him be anathema.

It pretty clear, actually.

Thats right. Those who hold to the truth of the goepel, as found in the scriptures, will be cursed by the CC, and ex-communicated.

Right. If the catholic decides to take a stand for Gods gospel, he will be condemned and ex-communicated.

I agree. Its not just because I was raised catholic. Its because I was raised catholic, went through 8 years of catholic school including religion class and catechism instruction, went through the teen age training classes that were offered, spent considerable time on interent discussion boards listening to catholics share their faith and defend catholic teachings, spent vast sums of time digging into catholic sources like the Catholic Encyclopedia, online catholic catechism, the Vatican web-site, and spent much time listening to catholic apologists on EWTN.

And then from taking catholic teachings that catholics apologists themselves have shared with me, and comparing them with the word of Almighty God on those same things, and discovering that time after time after time the word of God says this...when the word of the catholic church says that.

If you want to believe that the summit of the Christian life is eating the Lord Jesus Christ, that is your buisiness.

The scriptures teach us that the summit of the christian life is having the Lord Jesus Christ live His life in and through us, and that is done through faith...not eating Jesus.

"As you have recieved Christ Jesus(by faith[/b], so walk ye in Him"(by faith)

"It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me. And the life that I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

Well, I know some people who have never spent one second in college who know Gods word, and the truths found there, more fully then people who have spent years in cemetary...I mean seminary.

God bless,

Mike

[ February 15, 2004, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: D28guy ]

 

GraceSaves:

Part of the problem is that all Catholics are not taught the same. The unity that you like to portray within Catholicism does not exist. For example:

• My son's CCD teacher told him that Catholics who leave the church go to hell.
  
• My mother insists that there is such a place as Limbo, as that is what she was taught in her Catholic eduction. Now I understand that Limbo is not taught.
  
• When I was a child, we were taught to pray for the dead, and to say masses for them, to shorten their time in Purgatory. Now the pope says that Purgatory is a state, not a place.
  
  The point is that even though the Catechism says one thing, that is not necessarily what Catholics have been taught. There may be only one "official" position; however, it is sometimes difficult to get the same answer -- even from two different priests.