Hell

So we are in agreement that all believers can't be in this list, and you agree that all the other sinners in this list are unbelievers. Why then, did the author give us a list of unbelievers and include one group of unbelievers in the set of people that would be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The author separated the unbeliever from the other sinners. Otherwise, he could have just written it like this “And the unbelievers will be thrown into the Lake of fire.”

Further why did he place the unbelievers 2nd in line in this list? It would make sense if he had said "And these unbelievers such as murderers, liars,...etc. will be thrown into the lake of fire. By doing so it makes the whole group inclusive, but that is not how it was written. It is puzzling why it was framed this way. Because it opens the door that other believers who sin could also be included in the damned.

Do you see what I mean? So the next question is why was it written in a way that creates ambiguity when it didn't have to be written that way? Was this an interpolation? If it was, it brings a whole new question as to who gets put into the Lake of Fire and who doesn’t. If it isn’t an interpolation, it creates a whole different category of people who are put into the Lake of fire as compared to the rest of the Bible. For example, if it is read as it is written, it means that there are other sinners who believers that will be punished in the lake of fire.

Put into a mathematical formula it looks like this X= (a+X+c+d)
where X =unbelievers (which include all sinner types)
and “a” through “e” = sinner types.

How else can this be read that would make sense?

Can someone see something I’m missing?

I believe this has to be a last minute interpolation. While minor, and it doesn’t really change any major doctrine, it is a weak point that I found difficult to overcome in arguments. The only way out is by claiming interpolation.

 

Someone asked...

His deeds gave evidence that he was not, however in an English translation of his book Mien Kampf (My Struggle) I remember reading that he claimed to be a believer and said that the work he was doing against the Jews was "the work of the Lord".

HankD

 

Hello HankD
Sorry Never Met The Man., Only Read About Him Through Other Peoples Opinions..
I Have Heard Of Carnal Christians..
Accepting The Free Gift Of A Blood Sacrifice By Anothers Sacrifice Is Something Hard To Refuse Or Deny. Talking To God Saying Ill Take It Thanks, Is Pretty Easy. At Any Time Of through Many Many Years. At Some Part Of Anyones Life they Were A Sinner. This Man Is Used As An Example Of A Great Sinner In History. Exactly How Many Sins Does It Take To Occur The Wrath Of God.
Thinking That I Can Supply The Needs For My Family Without God Is A Sin.
Some Say that The Sin I Just Mentioned Will Get Me Punished Forever and Ever....
Or We Can Be Ultimately Legalistic. and Say The Soul That Sins Shall Die or There Is No One Righteous, No Not One. And Then Focus Our Viewpoint To Every Child that Died At Birth..
Mercy Has To Be Evenly Administered... Didnt God Say That He Abhored Unjust Weights .......Everyone, Or No One.
My Choice Is Everyone...Hitler,.. Lets Talk About Him In A Thousand Years or even a Million..
Love Is The Fulfillment Of The Law

[ May 22, 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

His deeds gave evidence that he was not, however in an English translation of his book Mien Kampf (My Struggle) I remember reading that he claimed to be a believer and said that the work he was doing against the Jews was "the work of the Lord".

HankD</font>[/QUOTE]This is a touchy subject, but let's face facts. He well could have been a Believer and still did the wrongs he did. Just as Bin Laden is calling himself a Muslim and doing the same wrongs. It is not a reflection on the religion but on the individual.

I personally think Hitler and Bin Laden are perfect reasons for eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. But we have to bring in the fact that original sin is also the blame. So is it truly these moron's fault or are they an expected part of the original sin punishment on man? Thus, how can God punish them forever in torment if apart form the effect of original sin, these people would be angel like in behavior?

It is unfair, but that is part of the price we are paying for original sin. In effect we have been left on our own to a large degree. We wanted to be God's and we now get to deal with the problems.

[ May 22, 2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

So we are in agreement that all believers can't be in this list, and you agree that all the other sinners in this list are unbelievers. Why then, did the author give us a list of unbelievers and include one group of unbelievers in the set of people that would be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The author separated the unbeliever from the other sinners. Otherwise, he could have just written it like this ?And the unbelievers will be thrown into the Lake of fire.?

Further why did he place the unbelievers 2nd in line in this list? It would make sense if he had said "And these unbelievers such as murderers, liars,...etc. will be thrown into the lake of fire. By doing so it makes the whole group inclusive, but that is not how it was written. It is puzzling why it was framed this way. Because it opens the door that other believers who sin could also be included in the damned.
</font>[/QUOTE]See my previous post May 22, 12:15 a.m.
I don't know if the exact order is that important or not. But I believe that the intent of the inclusion of the word "unbeiever" is to show the awfulness of the sin of unbelief. It is just as horrific a crime as murder or adultery, or as any of the other sins that are mentioned.
DHK

 

Post it.

I read your question about believers and unbelievers and this is one of the scriptures that I feel refutes the Doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

 

Whoop’s missed the word synoptic, but really, I don't think it would be fair to limit this point to the synoptic when the purpose of Jesus’ visit was not completed until after he died. While I understand that these books were written after the rest of the Pauline works, they are more of a biography and an establishment of his life on earth. The interpretation of his life occurs in the rest of the New Testament.

Why do you feel that his purpose would be clear in the synoptic gospels? Fuzzy yes, but clear?

 

I agree with your point. It would go to support that view unless it is an interpolation.

That is one of the problems that arises with this verse. But we must always seek other verses to give support and may not rely on just a questionable verse as this when it violates so many different scriptures. Given your argument and the point you made, doesn't it also mean that most all Christians won't get into heaven because all christians continue to lie after their conversion? And if one is not repentant after each lie, or die before repentance is made it would be the case that that person would have to fall into this catagory. Otherwise, what kind of liar who is considered a Christian could be included in this group.

 

Hi Me2,

Its been a pleasure reading your posts, we think alot alike but you have a refreshing way of expressing these things. I appreciate that in you.

I think were both on the same side of the Sword seeing things in like manner though differently I appreciate different flavors of the same Spirit I sense in you.

Reminds me of what a freind of mine said to me as he was recalling fishing one day... He was fishing off the beach and it was an absolutely beautiful day (sun was out, not a cloud in the sky) he got a bit thirsty and put down his pole to return to the house to get a drink. When he turned around he saw that behind him were dark storm clouds. He shared what he felt God spoke to his heart concerning something he had mused on for awhile, and this was just the picture he needed.

He always wondered why some christians harped on hell, judgement, condemnation and what seemed like few saw Gods glory, love and goodness. He himself saw God as love and could not relate to the darkness others felt the need to "lift up" concerning the same God. God seemed to say, "you can let THIS (sunny, warm day) be your reality" or you can turn behind you and "let THIS (dark storm clouds) be your reality", both seemed to be true but it depends on your view of Him as your reality. I think we see "the sunny day" together

When your rooted and grounded in Gods "love" you reflect that love. Alot of people say how much they love God but harp on wrath, I doubt they truly see Gods love, what you behold is what you reflect and I see the truth of that even on these boards. There can be alot of mean spiritedness but I know they donn't know that God loves them first.I know I am changed by beholding the beauty of the Lord, beholding HIM. His perfect love casts out fear. As John said fear hath "torment" anyones who fears is not made perfect in love.

I hear you concerning revelation which is the unveiling of Christ to us in a very real way. To know God (which is eternal life) is experiencially knowing intimacy with Him. No audible voice, but a deep well within which draws upon Christ within who alone knows the Father and reveals Him to us who experiencially know He abides within us giving us light. How I wish I knew more of Him who satisfies in every way but keeps us thirsting for more, what sweet fellowship! Wish that could spill over in and among christians. But I believe Paul said the same thing saying, I want you to have fellowship with us and our fellowship is with the Father and Son. What He felt when He was ministering unto the Lord was to know Him even more. Amen? Amen!

I think your right on Me2 I see the positive sides of what looks negative in the concrete images, its the "meditation" of His word which brings light. Theres alot I'm still thinking on but I like the "death of death" even as referenced in other places concerning even our mortality (This body of death) which is swallowed up in life.

Let me ask you something... Have you in fellowship with our Lord thought this was strange but still had no answer? I'll give you an example...

Jesus said ye search the scriptures because ye think that IN THEM you have eternal life (knowing God) and these are they which testify of ME and you will not come to me that you might have life.

Now we have come to Him and have fellowship with Him and know the intimacy of this communion in His presence, knowing experiencially that He is love without a doubt, even if someone would tell you otherwise and yank verses and the like you know what you know and you feel no condemnation at all in His presence, just beauty, love, acceptance in the deepest sense. Then you turn and you converse with other christians and the verses start flying back and forth left and right both are written. But each one converses from the side they percieve.... Ok... I'm not wording this right ARGH! Ever want to make a point and find you can't? I've been going through this lately (lack of clarity on my part).

For instance, "the lake of fire", God starts showing you through His word (scriptures) verses the internal word Spirit which interprets His word bearing witness of Christ. You KNOW HIS LOVE and the internal word won't let you "amen" something unless you understand it (not yet fully lit) Your wishing He would just share it, but He won't do that, you have to "wait" your seeing total grace in one part of what looks "hard" to accept but the picture is coming together but He leaves you hanging (as your "working it through") then gives you that "Ah HA" moment!!!!! Your jumping out of your chair in total amazement type scenario.... I'm going through this right now lol! But the "Ah HA" moment hasn't come your dying to share what you "think" that might be but you really can't do that until more clarity comes.... I'm not a very good "waiter" but I love a good revealing of Christ myself I'm in a in between time right now where I know I should be doing more listening then speaking. Glad your here, your a pleasant spring to drink from. I betcha I didn't make a single point... lol! I'm going through a season right now forgive me as I should not be posting.

In Him Kim

P.S I think I need a "posting vacation"

 

Now there's some good news.

(Sorry moderators, I couldn't resist...)

[ May 23, 2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Curtis ]

 

I'm sure they already have, several times.

 

I believe our difficulty with the eternal state of the wicked is actually our difficulty with the character of God.

Genesis 18:24b ...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

I'm sorry I sounded mean. My comment was tongue in cheek. In all honesty, I have a very hard time with Star's posts. I don't understand them, but I'm sure there are people who enjoy them. So I don't want to sound rude, at all. I don't consider myself any more of a christian than anyone else.

I hope to see you here from time to time, I don't post in this area much.

But I'm positive I have been in several prayers, as I have prayed for several posters here.

 

Bump

[ May 23, 2002, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]