Hell

Now there's some good news.

lol! Don't I know that Don't worry Mr. Curtis I haven't lost my sense of humor when I became a Christian.

I suppose my posts are "combed" for "a reason" to get the boot its only a matter of time I guess. It won't be the first time it happened, though I must admit I thought it would happen sooner. I don't understand how honest questions concerning certain passages could raise up the house. But thank you for informing me on the feelings of others toward me. I personally can't recall having a problem with any of the moderaters. Perhaps your in the "inner circle" knowing much more then myself.

No problem, I have those "can't resist" moments myself

Bless you in Christ
In Him Kim

 

AITB:

In continuance of the reading of your essay, you put quite a bite of support for eternal torment in hell on a parable told by Jesus. It was obviously one that had been told for many years by others in that it referenced Abraham and it did very little in way of teaching true details or facts, it violates how we are taught one gets into heaven. Its only use is in showing a Karmic lesson, more in line with Buddha’s beliefs than Christian belief. Yet it does teach the compassion of God upon some of his creations. Mixed with original sin punishment for the rich, if he used illegal means to attain his riches. Yet another missing piece of the story.

This story teaches something that I don’t believe that Christ himself believed. That the rich go to hell, and the poor go to heaven. However, it one doesn't take this parable literally, then there is no conflict between it and our Christian beliefs. I can see how such a story would have been around for hundreds of years to comfort the poor in letting and KEEPING them poor. Why would anybody want to be rich after hearing that story?

Side note: It also did not teach that hell would be an eternal suffering.

Since it is a parable the fire it mentions can be interpreted in the same vain fire was commonly used in the bible in reference to the destruction of the body and soul by decree of God. Whereas, the sword is used commonly in reference to the destruction of just the body by decree of God.

So the whole parable is animating a dead person who is separated from God and wishes he weren’t. That's the real lesson here for the Christian. There has never been an establishment anywhere else in the Bible that people can speak to anyone else from hell; in fact, just the opposite. So that also shows it is not fact.

This is shown in the parable by the chasm that separates, It stands for the separation.

For one to believe this literally, we will have to give up living in luxury and become a beggar to insure that you will not go to hell. Basically, move to Cuba and we should be safe from hell. It would also mean that Jesus taught in direct opposition to what the rest of the Bible requires of us to be saved or considered a Christian. Because one doesn’t have to believe in Christ to be a beggar.

Here are a few more facts that can support that this is nothing more than a parable.

When Jesus was telling a Parable, he made a very similar introduction into 4 stories (parables) all found between Luke 15 and Luke 19. He started the Parables with “There was a man...”. Interesting side note: There are also other stories in Luke and Matt that start with "There was a man" and finishes into a real events (which is plain to see by the story). The difference is that the writer of Luke and Matthew is the one saying the words “There was a man/woman etc.” Only in stories that were parables, did Jesus say these words.

Each of the following Parable contains this unique introduction as used by Jesus including Luke 16: 19 which is the one you are trying to pull out as a literal fact.

Luke 15:
11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons.

Luke 16
1Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions.

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

Luke 18
1Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men.

Matthew 21:28 There was a man who had two sons.

Matthew 21:33
"Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard.

Based on these argument, I can't see using this parable as any type of factual bases for the attributes of hell other than it is a separation from God.
Your Ball!

 

Hello AITB,
Just Finish Reading You Essay On Hell. Also Got A Chance To Look At You Site. I Am Super Impressed With Both Of Them.
The Time And Effort That You Have Put Into its Creation Should Inspire Many. Namely Myself for The Moment. Im Going To Created One Of My Own
Based On What Ive Seen Of Yours. I Recommend The Visit to Everyone Here.

Ive Noticed A Few Things To Discuss. Starting With Peoples Interpretation Of Parables.
The Ones You Mentioned About Hell Struck Me to Be Good Choices to Talk About.
Some Of The words used By Jesus. "Outer Darkness" or "Gnashing of Teeth" or "Worm Dyeth not". Let Me Start with The Idea That Jesus Spoke Very Little About Life After Death. If He Did It Was Vague and General. Everytime anyone pressed the Subject, he Would Speak In Riddles or Not At All. Also He Spoke About Spiritual Concepts and ideas. Also In General.
He Wanted To Get The People Thinking About Spiritual Concepts So That When The Comforter Would Come They Could Grasp What Was Happening!.
His Main focus Was Explaining His Mission Concerning "Finding or Saving The Lost".

The Lost Being Those Who "By Faith " Believed That The Covenent Between Abraham and God was Based and Consummated On The Bases of FAITH IN a God of Covenant with Mankind. ..Not Following The "Law Of Moses" or any other man made works

Jesus Spoke Of A Parable About Being A Guest At A Dinner. (luk 14:8-11)
8: When Thou Art Bidden Of Any Man to a Wedding, Sit not Down in the Highest room; Lest a More Honorable man than thou Be Bidden Of Him;
9:And He bade thee and Him come and say to Thee; Give This Man Place; and thou begin with Shame to Take the Lowest Room.
10: But When Thou art Bidden, Go and Sit down in The Lowest room; That When he That Bade thee Cometh, He May Say unto thee, Friend, Go up Higher: Then Shalt Thou Have Worship in The Presence of Them That Sit At Meat With Thee.
11: For Whosoever Exalteth Himself Shall Be Abased: and he That Humbleth Himself Shall Be Exalted.

Jesus Was Speaking To The Pharisees in Parables. This One Lets You See That The Ideas of Jesus eluding to: If you make a mistake and sit in the seat reserved for the Honored Guest and you get caught. You Will Be Embarassed To Find Out You Were Wrong And Have To Move To A Lesser Position At The Table....

Later On In The Same Conversation Jesus Ends This Very Long String Of Parables with Lazarus and The Rich Man. (A Blatant Stab At The False Belief of The PARTIALITY of the pharisees-----Contrasts).

Cant You See The Outer Darkness or The Gnashing Of Teeth or even worm dyeth not...

Not Until The Holy Spirit Comes will These Pharisees "See". That God Did Not Choose Them To Sit In The Chief Seats thus being Forced Away From The Truth or Light That They Imagined They Had. Its The Same Table With God. But Way Down At The End. Still Seeing The Light But Barely..In Outer Darkness. Gnashing Of Teeth. Pride Goes Before A Fall. Finding Out You Were Wrong. and Now Your Angry. Worm Dyeth Not... Its That Squiggly Old Spirit Of Adam Inside You.. Carnal Flesh Cant Sit Still And Admit That God Is Right and Self Is Wrong. What Do You Think Dying To Self Means?. (Could It Be Stepping On That Worm One More Time..hehehe)

Jesus Spoke About The Present Moment of "Hell". A Negative State of Being. In The Old Testament People were said to be in a State of hell While They were Alive...HUH...Yep!

Just Simply Think Opposites..Jesus Simply Spoke About Things That People would Think and Spiritually observe When The Conforter Would Finally Arrive On The Scene...

Helen, Think That The Rich Man Are The Pharisees Believing That Abraham would Save Them Through The Laws Of Moses Instead Of Faith. The Ideas Of Real Torment Is An Embellishment of The Stupidities of The Interjections of The Pharisees...A View Of Partiality That God Would Torment Mankind instead Of Bless.

Star, Youve Spoke Of Slowing Down.., During Regeneration Christians Goes Through Cycles Of Picking Up Wisdom And Going Through Experiences Of Understanding With God . One And Then The Other. Think Of It As A Relationship With Your Elder Brother Jesus, Or With Dad

This Sound Cruel But It Makes Some Sense

Proverbs 25:16 Hast Thou Found Honey? Eat So Much As Is Sufficient For Thee, Lest Thou Be Filled Therewith, and Vomit It.
Until God Proves Wisdom. It Sounds Good But It Dont Make Sense. It Dont Fit With All The Other "Pieces" of The Puzzle Youve Found.. Eventually It Will Become Confusing..If You Hold Onto Wisdom too Long Without Understanding It Can Possible Lead To Destroying Previous Faith Based Beliefs In Ones Life..."That Which You Think You Have Will Be Taken Away"
AnyHoo....
Star, Everyone Wants To Wait On The Second Coming Of Jesus...Go Look In The Mirror!

 

Hello Post-It,
If You Would Like To See Disagreement..Start A Thread Based On Intepreting Parables!
That Will Indeed "Smoke Out " The Underlying Faith of True Christianity.

 

Me2,

Christ in us our hope of glory is what I precieve without a doubt, did you perceive differently through my post? I'm not standing looking at the sky in that sense (never was) He comes in the same like manner we saw Him leave, that was from BIRTH (in us) to ascension for sure... No disputes Here. As for "Wisdom" it comes not through our elloquence or our intellect, God made that even more certain when He granted Christ and Him crucified as our Wisdom. Truth or Wisdom from a concept rather then a person? no way, make no mistake about it thats Jesus Christ alone in my understanding

In Him Kim

 

Hi Star,
I Dont Have To Read Anymore Of Your Posts To Know Who You Are... Or Perhaps I Should Say Who Is In You, Or Even Who You Are In....

So Are You Waiting For The Twinkling Of An Eye Or JESUS Riding In On A White Horse...

Doesnt That Sound Odd.. Jesus Looked Up To "The Heavens" When He Prayed or His Face "Shined" In The Transfiguration or "Walked" On Water or "Ascended" Into The Air..
Sounds Like He Is Showing External Examples Of The "Power" Of God To Child Like Pre-Believers.

He Going To Return In Like Manner?... Not That I Mind..It Just SOUNDS Silly

[ May 23, 2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

So Are You Waiting For The Twinkling Of An Eye Or JESUS Riding In On A White Horse...

Wrong person Me2, they may be scripture but thats not how I read it. I'm not a church going christian, I haven't the faintest ideas what other churches teach until I come to these boards. I haven't stepped foot in a "building" with an assembly for over 12 years. Nor do I see anything or look for anything in scripture except in Christ to see the scriptures speak of Him (Old Testament) in similitudes... I'm pretty much the outcast here seeing everything as such. I'm not of the pre, mid, post, partial, pret breed.

I'm more of the live let live enjoy Christ in me and see Him in just about everyone, heretical I know it just makes me less judgemental where I can come here and fellowship with just about anyone. I'd rather be judged then pass judgement.

Nothing "literal" going on here

What seems silly about Him coming in "like manner"? People take that as I'm saying he'll be floating through the physical sky (white horse deal as you wrote) No, thats not quite it, His Spirit is poured out on all flesh we become the children of God through God working in us. As He was born in one so also is he reborn in us. This is how I "see" (or percieve) His coming, for as He is so also shall we be in this world. But to each their own interpretation, because we can only read it as we read it and know Him as we know Him.

In Him Kim

[ May 23, 2002, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Star ]

 

AITB:

The other common assumption in these verses is in reference to the undying worm. Why did it not say something about the undying soul or spirit? That is because the undying worm is taken from a prophecy by Isaiah 66:24. In which he is describing a field with scattered dead bodies (not living bodies) in which maggots devour. The implication here is that at the final White Throne Judgment, those who rebel against God will be slain by God using fire and his sword (killed, not tormented) Isaiah 16:16. Then the dead bodies are eaten by the maggots and consumed by the fire. Fire is the consuming entity that brings death of a body and soul. It is found through out the Old and New Testaments in this usage. This prophecy is full filled in Rev 19:14-18. Here it clearly shows the dead and their flesh being devoured.

The worm that does not die is a clear reference to a maggot, maggots don’t die, they turn into the house fly or the horse fly, among other insects. The common misinterpretation of the “worm that never dies” has really butchered the Hell Doctrine for a very long time.

 

Hi Star,
I Hope I Didnt Give You Any Wrong Impressions.
Been There, Done That...
Some Folks Have A Strong Desire to Follow their Own Path, Letting The Lord Lead Them Wherever and to Keep Them there For However Long They Need To Be.
Having To Follow Some Other Persons Lead On What You Will Learn and The Speed It Takes You to Understand, is As Far As Im Concerned Wrong.

Just As In Observing My Activities In A Bout Of Understanding with The Lord.
Im Requesting That God To Show Me The Answers. Is It Me Asking God, Or God Putting The Request In My Head, To Ask for The Answers Of Him? God Knows What I Need To Be Taught and When..Do I Know? NO!..
Is It The Pastor Who Knows What God Should be Teaching Me? No.. Of My Family ? No..

Is God Trying To Rear His Own Child. Who Is Mature, and Responsible.
Whos Cup Is Constantly Half Empty as opposed To Half Full. One Who Is As Much An Individual ., Who Will stand On Their Own God Given Faith In What They Understand. What They Know To Be A Very Part Of Themselves.and Willing to Give Of Themselves 100%..
If I Know Anything It Is That No One Can Go And Start Defeating Their Goliaths without Having To Hunt Down A Lot Of Bears And Lions.
In Your Case I Am Not Surprised To Hear That Standardized Creeds, and doctrines and Canned Beliefs Of Others Have NOT Kept You Back...or to Put It Another Way ..
I Rejoice To See That Babylon Had Fallen. That No Longer Will Any Man Make Merchandise Of You.
I Recognize That Person Is You,.. Who With Glee, Can Say To Anyone, I Die Daily..

Please Forgive Me If You Have Detected Anything Otherwise in my Statements

 

Post-it, it is you that is butchering the doctrine. I would post verses to back it up, but you have ignored them before, so I will say only this.......

Jesus says hell is eternal.
Post-it says it's not.

Who should I believe....

Psalm 118:8

 

"The most dangerous thing you can do is put a question mark where God puts a period in His Holy Word"

That came out of my "Doctrines of the Bible" class. I like it a lot.

 

Hello AITB,

Well I Took Your Advice And Ran Down A Few Passages In The Old Testament. Of Which I Picked A Few To Defend That The Term Used For Hell Also Encompassed The Idea That references To The Word Hell Also Were Used While A Person Was Still Alive. A Reference To An Attitude Of Negativity. A State Of Negative Wellbeing. A State of Emotional Negativity. (Whew)

2 Sam 22:6 The Sorrows of HELL compassed me About; The Snares of Death prevented Me;
2 Sam 22:7 In My DISTRESS I Called upon The Lord, and cried to My God: and he Did Hear My Voice out of His Temple, and my Cry did enter into his ears.

the very same verses are also used in psalm 18:5 and somewhat like psalm 116:3

psa 86:13 For Great is Thy Mercy Toward Me: and Thou hast Delivered My Soul From The Lowest Hell
psa 86:14 O God, The Proud are Risen Against Me, And The Assemblies of Violent Men Have Sought After My Soul; and Have Not Set Thee Before Them.

psa 116:3 The Sorrows Of Death Compassed Me, and The Pains Of Hell gat Hold upon me:
I Found Trouble and Sorrow.
psa 116:4 Then Called I upon the Name Of The Lord; O Lord, I Beseech thee, Deliver My Soul.

pro 23:13 Withhold not Correction From The Child: For If Thou Beatest Him With The Rod, He Shall Not Die.
pro 23:14 Thou Shalt Beat Him With The Rod, and Shalt Deliver His Soul From Hell.

Jon 2:1 Then Jonah Prayed unto The Lord His God Out Of The Fish's Belly.
Jon 2:2 And Said, I Cried by Reason of Mine Affliction unto The Lord, and He Heard Me; Out Of The Belly Of Hell Cried I, and Thou Heardest My Voice.

I Think I Can Defend These Statements As Being Moments Where The Speakers Were Clearly Alive.

 

What was the Chapter and verse where Jesus says that hell is eternal torment? I must have missed it.

I believe the Bible define hell as "dead in the ground" period. But everybody is brought back to life for the Final Judgment. Either they get some type of reprieve or the die again, never to return. Those that get the reprieve have been the ones that have not heard the Word or were good people too stupid or to smart to understand that Jesus was real. I believe at the Final Judgment people are judged on what they did on earth, just like it is written. Ya got good people and ya got bad people.

 

You didn't miss it. You dismissed it. You told me it said or meant something else. Like satan did with Eve when he hissed..."yea, hath God said..."

 

You have a good point. But don't they deserve that if they can't follow simple directions found in the Bible?

But seriously, it is one of those unknowns we have to accept. I usually blame it all on original sin and our choice, etc... But then there is the otherside of the coin. The side without fuzzy, warm answers.

 

Hello Everyone,..
How About A Break..or Maybe a Right Turn
AITB Mentioned A Song Which I Want To Base My Understanding On A So Called Parable Concerning Eternal Punishment first the Words Of The Song:

Who Will Be Jesus (By Bruce Carroll)
He Came Home From Work Last Night To Find That She Is Gone. Now Hes Spending His First Sunday Sitting In The Pew Alone. There Are Whispers All Around Him. His Heart Breaks In Two.
He's Wondering Who Will Reach Out And Help Him Make It Through.
Who Will Be Jesus To Him? Who'll show The Love That Restores Him Again?
He Doesnt Need A Judge. He Needs A Friend. Who Will Be Jesus To Him?

She Has A Reputation Like The Woman At The Well. The Only Love She Ever Knew Was The Kind She Buys And Sells. But Her Thirsty Heart Is Searching For A Love That Will Be True. The Savior Cries For Her To See Himself In Me And You.
Who Will Be Jesus To Her? Who'll Show The Love Thats Commanded In His Word?
Will She See In Us The Mighty God We Serve? Who Will Be Jesus To Her?

Wounded People Everywhere. And When They Look At Us . Do They See Jesus There?
Who Will Be Jesus To Them? Who'll show The Love That restores Them Again?
Though They Do Not Need A Judge. They Need A Friend. Who Will Be Jesus To Them?

We Can Focus All Scripture Concerning Eternal Torment and They All End Up Here. The Final Argument Is Only Supported Here.
Mat 25:46 And These Shall Go Away Into Everlasting Punishment: But The Righteous Into Life Eternal.
We Could Start With The Parable Of The Sheep and Goats..verse 25:31 We See Jesus On The Throne.. This Sounds Like The Great White Throne Judgement . When did Jesus Become Judge. At The Cross. Jesus Is Sitting On A Throne Inside Every Believer. He Judges With Love and Mercy and Forgiveness. Jesus Is Not Judging Groups Of People But The Thoughts and Intentions of His People. One Thought At A Time 24/7 365 . If It Were All People. The Ones He Died For Who Would He Pardon.? Everyone.. Remember That Statement "Father Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do."..Forgive Who And For What?.. Everyone For All Sin, Past Present And Future....
Anyway Thoughts and intentions..Carnal verses Spiritual, Selfish verses Selfless. What Do We Hear? Dont Let The Left Hand Know What The Right Hand Is Doing. We Give With The Right Freely. If The Left Hand Knew What The Right Hand Was Doing..
Left Hand Representing Selfish, Carnal Mind Thinking.. Stoping The Right Hand From Giving Without Measure.. Hmm Sheep On The Right, Goats On The Left......In The Parable, We Jump Into Giving and Not Giving. When and To Whom....If Our Carnal Self Is In Control Of Our Lives Then We Called Ourselves Carnal Christians..Living Selfishly..Not Giving Of Ourselves To Anyone, For Anything.. Our Left Hand Is Leading Us
Jesus Is Saying That During Periods Of Our Lives When We Are Thinking Through Our Left Leaning Carnal Self That We Are Forever Losing Opportunities To Let Him, The King, Live Through Us To Everyone Around Us. That The Thoughts and Intentions During Those Periods Will Not Glorify God The Father and Be Eventually Destroyed. Not Any Living Human Being, But Our Thoughts And Intentions..Our Memories.
...Anyone Can Intepret. But Can They Do It Correctly? What Say The Choir?
Thank You ...AITB And Bruce..

[ May 24, 2002, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]