Originally posted by Link:
Of course we who believe that God operates today, in the world and in the church, the same way as revealed in New Testament scripture will think that those who think otherwise must have a boring outlook on life. Joy should be a part of our Christian life, and we should be excited about the work of God. The Corinthians were zealous about spiritual gifts-- and this was a good thing. Paul wanted them to direct their zeal toward mutual edification. We should be excited about God working in all the ways He works, and we should be excited in the way He works through the saints-- saving people's souls, leading them to repentance, encouraging believers to walk closer with the Lord and obey His word, and ministering through gifts of the Spirit like prophecy, healing, miracles. These are exciting things. It is normal for the Christian to be excited about such things, as long as we have our priorities right.
I agree with much of what you say. Of course I do not believe that the spiritual gifts are for today, and I believe I have the evidence to support my position (from the Word of God). I believe that that ought to be the basis of our discussion--and with you I have found for the most part it has.
Certainly there is joy and excitement in living the Christian life, as long as that life is genuine. There are many that live a false "put on the mask" type of life, as the clerk at the grocery store is forced to smile to you and say "have a nice day," whether she means it or not. Lives based on experiences are like yo-yos, up and down. And when you are down, one is forced to put on their mask, and pretend about their fun smiley Christian life.
The Bible teaches us about a powerful God who raised Jesus from the dead, and gave gifts to the church.
Let's look at that in context:
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,
and gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
This is not the same list as is given in 1Cor.12. It is vastly different, and may be interpreted in two different ways. One way says that Jesus was the cornerstone of the foundation, with the Apostles and prophets making up the other part of the foundation, and the rest of us building upon it. Every church then would have evangelists, pastors and teachers, building upon the foundation that consists of Christ (the chief cornerstone), and the Apostles and prophets.
A second interpretation, and a literal more figurative what go like this.
The word Apostle is means: "one sent with a message." There are about 19 apostles mentioned in the Bible. Barnabus, Timotheus, Paul, Matthias, Sylvanus, are but some of the ones that are not usually thought of. When apostolos was translated from Greek into Latin (in the Vulgate) the word mittere was used, from which we get our English word missionary. Basically the apostle of today is a missionary.
The word prophet. A prophet of the OT had more than one purpose. The predictive function of the prophet was minor. The major funcition of the prophet was to warn, encourage, rebuke, and in general--preach to the nation of Israel. Prediction actually played a minor role. The prophet of today is the preacher of the day.
Evangleist ought to need no explanationn. We have evangelistists today.
And Pastors and Teachers are the main offices in the local church. These are what God has given to us for the operation of the local church today. I believe these are different, and are if a different context than the spiritual supernatural gifts that Paul is discussing in 1Cor.12-14.
God is a God that does miracles through people, as revealed in the Bible. If someone does not believe God operates this way, then we who believe God does work this way and are excited about it, will think his outlook on life is somewhat boring. This doesn't mean we want a cushy life on earth. It just means we are excited about God working in Biblical ways.
I don't believe that you will find a poster on this board that believes that God
does not do miracles. Whoever said that? We all believe that God does miracles. But we don't believe in so-called miracle workers, and we don't beieve that the gift of miracles, or the gift of healing is in operation today. If it were, then someone would take up my challenge and prove that it is.
If there is such a faith healer today, or someone who has the Biblical gift of healing today, then let him demonstrate it by walking up and down the corridors of a hospital and healing all those in the hospital that are sick. Why doesn't anyone come forward to take up that challenge. Because the gift of healing has ceased, along with tongues and the other spiritual gifts. This much is quite obvious. There has no answer been given to this argument yet. Wouldn't it a wonderful thing if you had a "faith-healer" who could do some good for the victims of this Tsunami??
I cannot find any scripture that teaches that God will stop acting in the world and through the church in a way _other than_ the way He does in scripture.
God does act through the church, especially local churches. Spiritual gifts have ceased. But that doesn't mean he has stopped answering prayer, answering prayer in miraculous ways, answering prayer in healing people, etc. God still works today. We do not deny that. But the miraculous supernatural gifts that were given to the first century Christians for specific purposes have fulfilled their funcition, and are no longer for this day and age.
DHK