Sincere question for catholics.

This is a personal attack which you do over and over again without any warrant whatsoever. Read the post again. Saying that the argument or logic is childish is not the same as calling her a child. Saying that you have lied, slandered, and personally attacked me without any cause is true. What shall we do about this Tragic? This is a debate forum not a complaint forum.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I'm attacking you by pointinng out that you attacked him???

Interesting world you've conjured up for yourself. It was completely and utterly unneccesary to call Living a child. It offered nothing whatsoever to the meat of the argument, and was meant solely to belittle him and make yourself appear the intellectual superior to him.

But yeah, I'm sure you think that this is the way Jesus did it. </font>[/QUOTE]Another unwarranted, slanderous personal attack. If you had any evidence of where I called any individual a child you would quote it. But you don't. So I'll take your matter up with some of the other moderators.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]

There ya go, DHK. Evidence. Posted to the person and for the purpose I said.

It is possible, my friend, to debate without calling people children. If saying so is a slanderous personal attack, then so be it.

You take offense at things which amaze me, while offending with impunity. Be sure and mention that to those other moderators.

 

Notice in this case the snippet quote starts in Vs 12 which is AFTER the part in the text where you are told that THIS IS NOT REAL!!

1. This “inconvenient detail’ tells us that in fact NO one had ACTUALLY prayed to anyone in vs 12-16.
2. This “inconvenient detail” tells us that in fact Judas HAD NO actual sword given him by Jeremiah – because this is a dream – not real.
3. This “inconvenient detail” has Onias (not Judas Maccabees) doing the praying in the dream.
4. The only thing to “attack” is “belief and doctrine based on unninspired dreams of men.

 

The other example for prayers "to the dead" And prayers "for the dead in purgatory" is given from 2Macc 12.

#1.notice that the text calls them "the dead".

#2 notice the text has them sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins of the dead "atonement" for sins. The modern RC heresy - changes that as follows. #1 it prays to the dead not simply for them. (and it is the text above that calls them "the dead" so no need to argue with my term here).

#3. The RC church says you can not pray for atonement for sins for the dead. Their sins must already be forgiven by the blood of Christ or they would not be in purgatory but they would be in hell.

#4. They are praying for the dead who died in idolatry according to the text. In the RC church that would be a mortal sin - the RC church would claim that not only can not you atone for the sins of someone who is dead - but those who die as idolaters - do not go to purgatory. Basically the RC church itself refutes the validity of the story for anyone that would attempt to repeat it..

-----------------------

There is no hint that the dream of 2Macc 15 ever became "living practice" among the Jews or early NT Christians.

There is no hint that praying FOR the dead who died unforgiven and with mortal sin ever "became a practice" either for the Jews in Christ's day or EVEN for the RCC!

In Christ,

Bob

 

I don't buy your dream argument at all; these were two different events. The second passage demonstrates that the Jews did pray for the dead. Yet no hint of a condemnation of either practice in the NT. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Not a sausage

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Peace of Christ everyone.

I'll set the record straight, I'm a female

 

DKH,

It appears that I didn't make my explanation plan enough. When I stated, "Do you honestly believe that Catholics feel that there is "magical powers of some kind of holy water washes away sin"? It has nothing to do with the holy water or a priest. It is the power of God."

It is by the power of God who works through the water.

From the Catechism:
977 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."521 Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."522 (Mark 16:16)

V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a nonbaptized person, with the required intention, can baptizeNT , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

VII. THE GRACE OF BAPTISM

1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67

"A new creature"

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and co-heir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."72

1268 The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78

1270 "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

IN BRIEF

1275 Christian initiation is accomplished by three sacraments together: Baptism which is the beginning of new life; Confirmation which is its strengthening; and the Eucharist which nourishes the disciple with Christ's Body and Blood for his transformation in Christ.

1276 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20).

1277 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.

1278 The essential rite of Baptism consists in immersing the candidate in water or pouring water on his head, while pronouncing the invocation of the Most Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

1279 The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.

1280 Baptism imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual sign, the character, which consecrates the baptized person for Christian worship. Because of the character Baptism cannot be repeated (cf. DS 1609 and DS 1624).

 

tragic_pizza,

These can be found at reformedreader.org

The Baptist Catechism
Charleston Association of 1813

Benjamin Keach's Catechism

A Baptist Catechism
(Adapted by John Piper)

 

I knew that...

 

Sorry.

 

Then one must conclude that "anyone" can perform the sacrament of Baptism and "anyone" can administer the emblems of the Lord's Supper since NOTHING is in the material and nothing in the person that administers them.

WRONG!!

Not only DOES the priest HAVE magical powers that mortal men do not HAVE - he RETAINS those "POWERS" EVEN if excommunicated!!

How "typical" of the RCC to deny in one venue what it boldly practices and believes in another.

And of course "WHO BY FAITH RECEIVES BAPTISM" when an infant is baptized??

Answer: NNE!

That is why the RC historian Bokenkotter can so easily identify the evolutionary CHANGE in RC history when they reached the point where Elders/presbyteries were called "priests" and had "the POWER" to convert the SOUL of the infant (mark the soul of the infant) WITHOUT that infant "BY FAITH RECEIVING the Sacrament".

So the misleading double-speak in the opening quote above is "revealed" for what it is.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Interesting take on the whole thing, there, Bob.

What's interesting to me is that the Catechism segment Living posted on the sacrament of baptism appears to point the baptizee (and the family and parish, I suppose) to a dependence on God (identified as the Trinity) for direction and spiritual growth. While the Baptist ordinance of baptism acknowledges the remission of sins (a rule you keep remits sins? Fascinating!), it points the baptizee to a walk fully fueled by his or her own willpower and authority - God is almost a secondary player as far as I could read.

I'm certain that this is an incorrect observation, but lacking authoritative teaching on this, one can only rely on the information at hand.

 

Actually your interpretation of the Baptist Confession is incorrect. Remission of sins is no rule to be kept but is reference to the new birth by which the believer declares his sins have been remitted it in the outward act of Baptism. There is NOTHING about WILL POWER in either of those Confessions since both are Calvinist Baptist Confessions (Will power is anathema to Calvinists ) that understand sanctification in the believer to be the work of God.

 

Any takers here for the Nicene Creed?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Bob,

If you notice that it states a mark on the soul. This mark is made by the Holy Spirit. The selection you posted also states that humans can not get rid of this mark that has been put upon their soul.

It's not magical powers, unless you believe that God's powers are some how magical.

 

Baptist's Catechism (emphasis added):

Catholic Catechism (emphasis added)

It looks like Baptism to the Baptist is self-focused, identifying the baptizee as someone who decided to "do the right thing," and to the Catholic as focused on reliance upon God for each step of growth and spiritual awareness.

 

I like the Nicene Creed. I'll take it.

 

Thank you, I take that as a compliment. Mark 10:14-15 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Also, I do compare my belief to the Word of God. I find it interesting that I was taught in the Baptist church that we interpret the Bible as literal.

I guess they should have mentioned that they interpret things literal except when it comes to Baptism and Holy Communion. They look for a hidden meaning and state that God doesn't mean what he says surrounding thes two items.

I have always interpreted these two items to mean exactly what God said and I was in trouble for "thinking like those Catholics."

Also DKH, where do you come up with you belief on those two items? I would venture a guess that they line up with your church's belief.

 

I like the Nicene Creed. I'll take it. </font>[/QUOTE]"One baptism for the remission of sins"?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

moved

 

1 Corinthians 3:11-15. For no other foundation (PETRA) can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble – each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.[/b]
[/QUOTE]1. Notice that fire is to test and SEE IF the work (not the person) is of quality.

2. Notice that this NOT the RC case of FIRST finding the person to be in want/error/debt AND THEN punishing/tormenting with fire in proportion to the DEBT ALREADY evaluated with its punishment/torment assigned. RATHER EVERY evangelist's WORK is TESTED (even Paul's) by fire. This is NOT a claim that ALL evangelists go to purgatory -- but it WOULD become that if the RC attempt to Eisegete Purgatory INTO the text -- were successful.

1. The PERSON is not tormented according to the text - their WORK is TESTED.

2. The PERSON is the BUILDER - the EVANGELIST building on the fOUNDATION (Petra) that is Christ alone. The MATERIAL is the thing that is TESTED by fire - NOT the Person.

In the RC teaching it is the PERSON that goes to purgatory NOT the WORK they did IN The church TEACHING on the ONE foundation - Christ.

This text is totally unsuitable for the RC usage - but the RCC likes to snippet from it - because without actually reading the chapter it "appears" to be useful to them.

In Christ,

Bob