How exactly am I a brother to Catholics?

Perhaps a quote or two from Calvin's biographer, Francois Wendel will help you out, Carson.

From "Calvin" by Francois Wendel, The Fontana Library Thelogy and Philosophy, 1950, pp. 264,266.

Did Calvin believe in double predestination|?
Yes he did.

Did Calvin get his belief of double predestination from Augustine?
Absolutely!

Augustine’s heresies continue to influence many poor hapless souls today.
DHK

 

DHK --

The problem is that the quote you chose to fix upon was taken out of context from a larger corpus of work in which St. Augustine and St. Thomas, explaining him, state that this special providence, this special choosing is that of divine sovereignty in which a certain number are chosen to persevere to the end.

The Catholic Faith, surprizing to me as a Calvinist, does indeed have a very clear teaching on predestination and election, agreeing with scripture that God does indeed choose a certain number upon whom He places His favor and gives them grace to persevere. As Catholics, we are not allowed to presume upon the mind of God and make such statements as you would "I KNOW I'm saved and on my way to Heaven."

Precisely, you DO NOT KNOW THAT. What you know is that you believe today and you have assurance of God's favor, but you do not know if you will persist or fall away. Many lives have been lived which were begun full of promise in the Christian walk and yet ended in shipwreck. These people were active and filled with passion for the Lord, yet something drew them away, whether an outside tragedy or some other influence. You, sir, are no better than they.

In the book I quoted, St. Augustine is not championing the demonic doctrine of double predestination. The quote, taken in larger context, shows that God has grace upon all and gives the general call to all, inviting all to respond freely, yet upon some He bestows His favor that once they have come to Christ, they will persevere to the end.

And that, not Calvin's double predestination, is Catholic soteriology. Even if St. Augustine DID teach it....the Church does not. That is all you have to know really.

Brother Ed

 

I expect they'll also paint a mural of the whole thing in some secret room in the Vatican, so we Catholics will have yet one more damning piece of evidence we have to deny!

 

Very kind of you..

I have a better idea - what if the RCC simply tucks me away in those "secret file" it said it was keeping from its own scholars. I bet you could lose a couple "bus-loads-o-heretics" in there if you burn them first and then simply dump the ashes in the room.

Shhhhh - don't give them any "ideas".

 

This last paragraph is what we can at least agree on, and I will settle with that. I still believe that further research will show that Augustine did believe in double predestination, but having said what you did, that now becomes a moot point.
DHK

 

The paramedics just left my house and I am okay again.

Man, don't do THAT to me, DHK!!

We AGREE???? on something!!

They had to jump start my heart three times to get me going again.....LOL!!!!

Brother Ed

 

Don't you be messing with our Brother Ed, DHK! (oh, not really!)

 

Of course, both the New and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. God works covenantlly and He uses signs as manifestations of His covenants: rainbows, circumcision, etc. and we can now add baptism as a covenant sign, which is an outward representation of an inward reality. It’s also a sign and seal of the Covenant of Grace instituted by Christ. The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Man where God promises to Man eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ.

Baptism was taking place before Christ’s death. John the Baptist baptized many, but for the Jews that practiced baptism, it was an outgrowth of ceremonial washings. Baptism was usually saved for the Gentiles who wanted to become Jews. Baptism was also a sign of genuine repentance for the Jews, because when a Jew was baptized he was identifying with the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 14-17, Paul’s preaching was more important than baptizing, although he certainly wasn’t opposed to it. So, we can see from this passage that baptism isn’t essential to salvation. If baptismal regeneration were true, then I doubt that Paul would’ve thanked God that he’d baptized so few while he was in Corinth and as an evangelist he would never had said that Christ did not send me to baptize.

Suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Then he walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. If He goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn't enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)? Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is dangerous because it is saying that there is something we must do to complete salvation. That is wrong! See Gal. 2:21; 5:4.

Baptism isn’t necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace, as I mentioned above. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ez. 44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).

PS. I’m not claiming to be a Bible scholar, I’ve just finished a yearlong overview study of the Bible and I’m starting another yearlong study of the Pauline letters in January at a local Methodist Church. So I’ve taken tons of notes, for specific discussions as these. And no, I’m not a Methodist or a ‘watered down Catholic’ as I call my classmates.

 

Being a fundamentalist I believe that we are justified by faith, which means that God declares a sinner to be righteous by crediting, by reckoning the righteousness of Jesus to the sinner. This is done by faith. When the sinner puts his faith in the sacrifice of Jesus and trusts in Him and not himself for righteousness, the God justifies him. Romans 4:3, For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

You have to look at all of James 2, not just James 2:24. Start at verse 14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Notice that James begins by using the example of someone who says he has faith. He gives an example of what true and false faiths are in verses 15-17. Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons as he demonstrates in verse 19. He then gives examples of living faith by showing Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, faith without works is dead as James 2:20 says. This is why he says in verse 19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James says this because the demons believe in God, that is, they have faith, but the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgment of God's existence.

So James is saying that if you say you are a Christian, then there had better be some appropriate works manifested or your faith is false. It is not merely enough to say you believe in Jesus. You must actually believe and trust in Him. If you actually do, then you will demonstrate that faith by a changed and godly life, see 2 Peter 1:5-8. If not, then your profession is of no more value than the same profession of demons as in James 2:19. Remember, context is everything when studying scripture.

Are we saved by grace? According to Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 3:20, 28 and Gal. 2:16. Yes.

 

"How exactly am I a brother to Catholics?"

Let me add my thoughts on this. In the late 1980's-early 1990's I was a newly single mother, as my husband had deserted me, and had gone back to work for the first time in a few years. The job I got was in a construction contractor's office - not exactly the place you expect to find a high level of Christian ethics! But as I got to know my new bosses, I found that they were devout Catholics, very faithful to their denomination and devoted to Jesus.

Then I found out my son had severe allergies and asthma; there were many times that I had to miss work to stay home with him when he was ill. The stress of dealing with single parenthood, working, and the usual financial problems associated with paying for everything was causing me to suffer emotionally. One of the owners saw this - without me saying a thing about it - and of her own free will offered me a chance to spend an hour in prayer at their church during normal business hours twice a week with pay.

I was amazed. I did remind her that I was a Baptist, and would not be praying in the same manner that would be expected of a Catholic - but she told me that it made no difference at all to her or anyone else, as long as I was praying to God. I gave her my heartfelt thanks, but told her that I would not feel right being paid for doing that. She then told me that she would pray for me, and also had me added to their parish prayer chain.

More recently, I worked for another company whose owners were professing Baptists. To make a long story short, I wound up working for them less than 3 years - I have never worked anywhere else in my life where I was treated so badly. I wound up collapsing from overwork, my son was near failing in school due to the lack of time I had to spend with him, and I quit attending church because I wanted NOTHING to do with people like that.

After starting work for another company, one of my new bosses asked me where I went to church. I told her I was a "non-attending" Baptist. She told me "Ruth, you can't judge everyone in a denomination by your experience with one family. Go back to church for you and God - and let me be the first to invite you to come with us if you would like to go somewhere different". They were active members of an Assembly of God congregation. I started attending a different Baptist church in my home town, and today still belong to that church. But who do I consider my brothers and sisters in Christ? My Catholic bosses, my Assembly of God bosses - but NEVER my Baptist bosses.

There is no doubt in my mind who is living in Christ - and it is not the ones that called themselves Baptists! I am proud to number among my brothers and sisters people of several different denominations, for it is not the denomination that makes them brothers and sisters - it is Christ in them.

Ruth

 

If they serve the God of Israel then they are my brothers and sisters.

 

Nope.

Sorry.

So called "forensic justification" or "imputed righteousness" is a legal fiction. It is not in the Scriptures IF -- and I say IF IF IF IF IF -- you take the time to do a serious study of the Greek words in Romans. You see, most folks don't. They just listen to their pastor give a sermon with a lot of hi falutin' words in it and then describe those words as meaning that we are justified in the manner you describe above. And because it is their pastor and because he sounds soooooooooo intelligent, they never go home and crack a concordance, a Bible dictionary, and a Bible (along with a nice Yuengling Stout) and get to the heart of the matter.

And because of that, they wind up believing in Luther's little doctrine of demons (well......if it ain't true, then from what spirit is it, hmmmmmmmmm???) which sent thousands of Lutherans to hell as they lived out the reality of such a belief (i.e., they went and fornicated like dogs in heat because after all, if you are justified so that God only sees Jesus...heck, you can do anything ya want, right?)

I have posted probably 100 defenses of the truth of the Catholic position. If you use the BB's search engine, I am sure you can find the threads in the history. Just type in words like "forensic" "imputed" "infused" and my favorite, the word that secures Catholic truth of the matter "logizomai".

You'll find it.

Happy reading.

Brother Ed