once saved always saved for baptists

There are numerous examples of Christians leaving the faith. One, Hymaneus and Aleaxander are two such men. In I Tim. 1:19,20 the Bible says, Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The word faith is a reference to the Christian system. Jude 3, Act 6:7; 13:8. These men had put away there faith and trust in Christ that they once had. As Paul said they were on board the ship of faith but became shipwrecked. It is impossible to shipwreck unless one is, first, on board the ship.
Moreover, the text indicates they went from being faithful ( on board the ship) to sailing with the devil. vs. 20.
Unless one concludes he can be saved by living for the devil, then he must conclude these two men were Christians who turned away from Christianity to serve the devil. In fact, verse 3 indicates Paul left Timothy in Ephesus to prevent men among the saints from teaching false doctrine. The Bible says in Rev. 20:10 that false teachers are condemned to hell. The Bible says in Rev. 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Note: These two men were blaspheming God. This is without a doubt false teaching. According to he Bible, where will they live in eternity?

Moreover, if these men were not Christians the wording of the text is wrong when it says they left a good conscience and abandoned ship. An alien sinner cannot have a good conscience and abandon the ship of faith since he is not on it in the first place.

Furthermore, Paul states they were delivered to Satan that they might learn not to blaspheme. One ( Paul) does not deliver someone ( the party of the first part, Hymaneus and Alexander)) to someone else ( the party of the second part, Satan) if they ( Hymaneus and Alexander) are presently with them. ( the party of the second part I.E. Satan)

These two men are examples of those who were Christians and left the faith in Christ. These two, the Bible says, will be lost if they do not repent of their sins. Luke 13:3, Rev. 20:10.

 

Simon the sorcerer of Acts 8 is one who was a Christian, sinned and was condemned ( vs.20-22), until he asked for forgiveness and had the prayer of the righteous on his behalf. Acts 8:17-24, James 5:16, Gal. 6:1.

The Bible teaches that ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN AND THERE IS NOT A SIN UNTO DEATH. I John 5:17. Simon understood it. He therefore asked, pray none of these things come upon me ( vs. 24, 20,).

Repentance of sin is always required of those who violate God's law. Luke 13:3. The failure to change one's mind and actions will result in being lost. Luke 13;5, Mat. 3:8. Acts 19:18,19.

Furthermore,in Revelation 21:27, the Bible says, And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Therefore, if anyone sins and does not repent he is lost (i.e. Hymaneus, Alexander, Simon). Luke 13:3.

 

Tazman here are my verses to answer the question, Romans 10:9 & 1 john 1:9

Now thats how i know...OSAS.

Now you show me, where it tells you that you can lose your salvation, in plan verses that say you can?

 

Tazman:
No, I do not believe it is impossible to be lost once one is saved. Note: my previous two posts answer the question.

 

Frank, concerning the verses from 1 Tim. Those verses are interesting if read quickly and not thought about. If read in context they of course in no real way deal with the loss of ones salvation. All that is being said by Paul here, in a nutshell is that the institution of faith becomes shipwrecked (battered, weakened) when a good concience is not the driving force. It is not the LOSS of ones personal faith but the battering of "faith" as a general principle. As for shipwrecked, Paul survived I believe 3 shipwrecks, and alas faith survives as well. As for the two men being handed to Satan, that simply means that they were out of fellowship and lost the protection of the "church" (local assembly) they didn't lose their salvation. God disciplines His children, right? Paul turned the men over to the strictness of dicipline so that they could be restored.

So there you have it. Read closely OSAS is not corrupted by 1 Tim. 19 & 20.

Answers to other questions are coming.

In Christ eternally,
Brian

 

Brian:
1. Having read the text, your conclusion is one can leave the ship of faith and live with the devil and be saved. This is the one and only conclusion one can make from JUST those verses. I DISAGREE WITH YOUR CONCLUSION. Do you believe that an unrepentant blasphemer can leave the faith and live with the devil and be saved? I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANY UNREPENTANT PERSON WILL ENTER HEAVEN. Rev. 20:10, Rev. 21:27, I John 5:17.

2. Having read ALL THE RELEVANT SCRIPTURES IN THE POST on this issue, is it your belief that one who leaves the faith and teaches false doctrine is saved? I DO NOT BELIEVE FALSE TEACHERS WILL BE SAVED. Rev. 20:10.

3. HAVING READ ALL THE SCRIPTURES in the post, will anyone who is unrepentant of sin be allowed to enter heaven? I DO NOT BELIEVE SINNERS THAT HAVE FAILED TO REPENT WILL INHERIT HEAVEN. Luke 13:3, Acts 11:18, II Tim. 2:19,24-26.

It would be appreciated if you would answer with the scriptures addressing these questions.

 

I really feel that you don't understand GOD.
Once a person is saved, that person is indwelled
by the Holy Spirit. Now, if a saved person
pulls away and slowly moves into the deiver's
seat, I firmly believe GOD's WILL will prevail.
It is that reason that some "Christians" are
sick and some have died seemingly "prematurely".
GOD will remove one of HIS own that becomes a
permanent stumbling block. That "Christian"
will not recieve the rewards he might have
recieved...

Now I understand the book of JOB. I've read it.
I realize that ALL problems are not the result
of sin on the part of the individual. That was
the point of that book; however, GOD is the
judge and that is also a valid point...

GOD HATES DIVORCE----HE WILL NOT DIVORCE HIS
SAVED.

 

My answers: read below
Rev 3:4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Where These scripture written to a church that Jesus know? (bad english) --""Yes, there were those of the elect at this church.""

What is a "Church" and who is part of it?
""Local assembly – those who attend there""

Did these people in this church have "Soiled" cloths? Did these cloths get dirty, meaning that they were clean at one point in time? ""Yes, they sinned and were soiled, they were also born soiled. Some may have only confessed Christ, not commited to him, and so never were clean though they thought of themselves as clean. The elect remain clean always""

Who gave the "Clothes"? ""Garments is obviously just symbolic""

The people in this church that "soiled there clothes" will they walk with those who "who have not soiled their clothes" according to Jesus? ""The elect will be in Heaven, all others will not""

Finally what did Jesus mean when he said "I will never blot out his name from the book of life"?
"Blot out" does this mean that God somehow has power to reject people that once had their name in the "BOOK OF LIFE"?

""Read the passage carefully and you will see you are projecting what you want to believe on the verse. This is a verse of assurance to those who are the elect, the ones who came to trust in Christ and were given as a gift from the Father to the Son. These elect are so well known that God tells us symbolically that the names are written down. To give us assurance that we CANT lose our salvation God tells us that these elect, robed in white, washed by the Blood will NEVER be blotted out form their status as children of God. They are sealed forever. This passage is proof of OSAS not an argument against it. See what Gill wrote on the subject below. Also, I included the KJV and verses 2 and 3 for more context. Remember never thirst and never hunger? Now we add NEVER blot out. What a mighty God we serve. His promise to us is faithful and true, even when we are weak.""

[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Gill writes on Rev. 3 4&5
"And I will not blot out his name out of the book of life; by which is meant the choice of persons to everlasting life and salvation; and this being signified by a book, and by writing names in it, shows the exact knowledge God has of his elect, the value he has for them, his remembrance of them, his love to them, and care for them; and that this election is of particular persons by name, and is sure and certain; for those whose names are written in it shall never be blotted out, they will always remain in the number of God's elect, and can never become reprobates, or shall ever perish; because of the unchangeableness of the nature and love of God, the firmness of his purposes, the omnipotence of his arm, the death and intercession of Christ for them, their union to him, and being in him, the impossibility of their seduction by false teachers, and the security of their persons, grace, and glory in Christ, and in whose keeping this book of life is; which respects not this temporal life, that belongs to the book of providence, but a spiritual and eternal life, from whence it has its name."

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

Brian:
Those who God does not blot out are the FAITHFUL, NOT THE UNFAITHFUL. Rev. 3:4,5 .Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Please Note: When one defiles himself he sins. The Bible says, in Rev. 21:27,  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

THERE ARE NO SINNERS IN HEAVEN. EVERYONE THERE
WILL BE GLORIFIED AND PERFECT!

There also 2 books.

The Book of Life & The Lamb's Book of Life

They are not one-in-the-same. Here is where
many get confused. If your name isn't written
in THE LAMB's BOOK OF LIFE-----the day you die
your name is expunged from THE BOOK OF LIFE.

 

Brian, that is an example of reading OSAS into that verse. You are forced to make such conclusions because if you can't then OSAS dies. You are forced to make the conclusion that the ones with dirty garments never believed, yet the verse suggests the exact opposite of that. They were believers for they received and HEARD, faith comes by hearing("WHOEVER HAS EARS OUGT TO HEAR"). He warns them to OBEY and KEEP and HOLD FAST to what they have and REPENT, else there will be consequence. Therefore if they do OBEY, KEEP, and HOLD FAST there shall not be consequence. All this language is in direct conflict with OSAS theology. Those who OVERCOME and remain FAITHFUL will never be removed from the book of life for it is those who will see heaven.

"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Revelation 3:16

 

The Greek word for church (ekklesia) always means "assembly" and never means universal church in the sense of all believers or all believers in the "body of Christ" as you are using it. There were 7 churches in Revelation 3 and 4. The word is even used in the plural. To assume that there is just one is to deny Scripture. Each church was located in a separate city and had its own identity, and its own characteristics. Each churh had its own pastor which is called "angel" and may be translated messenger. The messenger of the church is the pastor who delivers the message. There is not one church, never has been. There are only churches (assemblies). It is impossible to have unassembled assemblies.
DHK

 

What makes one think that denomination has anything to do with OSAS?

OSAS is a matter of belief only!

 

Taz, I have no time today to answer much but the point DHK was making is that the passage was directed to the assembly in a given city. Are all the people you assemble with saved? Therefore what is being written here is not for some universal believer only church, it is written to a group of people, like any assembly, church would be. There are those in my "church" that are not saved. The attend sometimes but are not saved. In the eraly assemblies there would have been many unsaved because the gospel message was only tens of years old at that point and there was no written NT. There were soiled unsaved mixed with the clean elect. The true elect are said to not have to worry about being blotted out. They are in the BOOK to stay. I will try to address other thing later. Sorry for my lack of time right now.
IN Christ,
Brian

 

OK, one more thing. When scripture says, "overcometh" it is talking about overcoming Sin, by being washed by the Blood of the Lamb. I "overcame" when I placed my trust, by faith in Jesus to cleanse me of my Sin. Now read the KJV of the verse again with that in mind and it works perfectly toward OSAS.

Thanks for the good discussion,

Brian