once saved always saved for baptists

Tazman,

its my understanding that seperates a lot,

the parable mentioned is referring to the marriage supper of the lamb.

the supper that we are participating now by faith in christ. he is the meal..or the bread served in the Kingdom. and we partake of him by faith.

the three followers had personal priorities that outweighed their attention to attending or giving attendance to the supper.

as opposed to the new guests that were later invited and attended.

my explanations are the first three represented guests were drawn away by the spirit of the flesh and the second set of guests attended the supper in the spirit of christ by humbling themselves to the desires of the host.

as believers within the family of God. some follow the spirit of the flesh in rebellion against following God and are expressing enmity towards the spirit of Christ. both HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO ATTEND THE SUPPER. only those who are following the desires of their flesh refuse the invitation.

the two groups are mentioned in many ways throughout the NT.
a couple of other names are..
vessels of wrath/mercy or
children of obedience/disobedience

which tell the same tale by paul. one group obedient and the other group disobedient. both have parameters in which they operate within. yet both have the yearning and desire to know God. they just choose to do it differently. one way is accepted by God while the other not accepted by God..

just like the brothers cain and Abel which were within the same family also.
only one had a desire of serving the desires of the flesh, and the other His God. thats Us.

now the differencxe of followers. they have the spirit of God within them. they understand Christ as their high priest. if you were to examine the scriptures you would find that there are 4 discribed levels of understanding. baby,child,young man and father. each level having a distinct appearance of character,knowledge of God and level of Faith. followers (or children) do not proceed past the baby or child stage. they can only perceive and understand Jesus as their Christ. some do not accept that Jesus spirit is within them nor do they comprehend that Jesus has defeated death. nor understand that the father has also risen their spirit from death in christ.

disciples are those who continue on past the child stages and enter into the young man stage. an easy earmark of distinguishing this is that they can spiritually and physically express that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. unlike the follower (child) who cannot proceed into this level of understanding or expression. these understand that Jesus has defeated death and has proven his Lordship.
these also accept the sovereignty of the Father.

but theres even more to learn past this...
the father stage.

so you see that theres a large degree of seperation between the child stage and the young man stage.

one group is learning to understand living by faith. the child
the other group has experienced and proven to themselves of their capabilities of Doing it.
the young man stage.

Me2

 

Matthew 18
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

Tazman,

first question..
disciple or christian. the new followers have entered into a process of learning. they are spiritual babies. christians if they contain the spirit within them. OSAS.
disciples. no.not yet, potential, but not until their faith has to be tried. many will fall away.

remember your parable of the dinner invitation. some will refuse to follow after their flesh.

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

second question

more than belief. initially It is God who departs the spirit within us. we enter into a learning process called sanctification. We are being chosen as vessels to perform good works towards God.
which require higher levels of understanding and Faith than spiritual babies and spiritual children.
yes, we keep his word after our faith is tried. there are also persecutions that must be endured to become a desciple.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

or

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

what persecution. trials of believing that Jesus is love and forgiveness and mercy towards mankind.
will you forgive?
thats the reason for persecution..
to try your faith

simple belief will eventually be tried. bet on it.

third question

people that come to him will not all be disciples.
the parable that you cited referrs to COMPLETE SURRENDER TO EVERYTHING IN LIFE. many cannot let Go of the crutches of life that they can depend on to "save" them and depend only on the faith required to become disciples of Jesus.
His standards are all his way which is complete surrender. and no control of your own past ways of choosing. the remainder of the parable cited referrs to the foreknowledge and planning of God to remind the reader
that God is in complete and sovereign control.
and surrendering completely to him is ok.

becoming a disciple is a process which many will fail. does that bother you.

as if we have a choice of the followers succeeding towards being disciples. each of us is reponsible for the descisions we make and live with.

many will become reprobates and pew sittin spiritual children and babies in christ. but thats their reponsibility and choice. Right?

Me2

 

"What scripture address rejection of God by a Saved Disciple?"

Peter’s denial of Christ

HankD

 

Tazman,

RE: your post of August 01, 2003 05:28 PM

No, Taz, I am not saying that at all! What I am saying is that if one does not believe one will not do! We do what we believe in. When we do that which we do not believe in there is no value gained. If one does not believe in Jesus, or have faith in God, one will not do Godly works, but will instead do those works that are in accordance with his own beliefs. Such works do not produce faith results, that is, faith in God.

Peter would not have cast the net that final time if he did not believe the one who told him to do so! Neither would you!

Works without faith produce no faith results!

Naaman believed in the Prophet's authority, or he would not have gone to the prophet in the first place! The method of Healing is not what Naaman expected to receive from the Prophet, thus the reluctance on Naaman's part to do what was required of him by the prophet.

 

You take the Scripture out of its context. Look again:

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
--If you walk after the flesh, Paul says:
1. You are carnally minded and in a state of death, i.e., unsaved!
2. The carnal mind is enmity (the enemy) of God.
3. They that are in the flesh cannot please God.
4. He is writing to Christians, and thus says, you are not in the flesh. Go to the beginning of this book in chapter one and see who it is addressed to: "the saints."
5. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Do you have the Spirit of Christ? If so, there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. Period! No conditions attached.

Where do you get that from. The greatest sin and/or insult to God is to reject His Son who came from the glories of Heaven and laid down His life to die for the penalty of the sins that you could never pay for. You reject that sacrifice, spit in God's face, and tell Him I don't want your gifts and mercy, whose fault is it? God's ???
God doesn't punish the sheep; only the goats.

You finish your own verse. Is it speaking of salvation? No. Salvation is unconditional. It never comes with any conditions attached. That is where you are wrong. Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.

If none of the sheep of Jesus shall never perish, and no one will ever pluck them out of the Father's hand, it is obvious that they will never stop following isn't it. In fact it says that: "My sheep hear my voice and they FOLLOW me. Now, if you are only pretending to follow Jesus, are you one of His sheep? There are plenty of wolves in sheep's clothing around. The Lord made a statement HIS sheep; I am not about to call him a liar.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.
--What condition is attached? None. Simply believe, and you will be saved. There are no conditions attached to salvation.
DHK

 

Tazman,

God gives opportunity.

to choose to be chidlike in our understanding or face reality like an adult we think we are.

if you disagree with my opinions. then say so and give a response to the reasons why. or give your interpretation concerning the scriptures in question.

the previous questions that you posted required a more complex answer than a simple yes or no as you requested.

and stages or level of understanding are applicable here. its a progressive movement through the process of sanctification.
one scripture that gives reference to three of the four stages is in 1 John 2:12-14
child,young man, and father.

Me2

 

Tazman,

First a response to you Acts 11:26 ..The addition and focus on the title referenced to Jesus as Lord denotes that some of the participants were at a level to comprehend the meaning of the title.
That would be those who fall under the discription of disciples. Christians could be in my opinion any one having the spirit of Christ within them…even if they do not recognize or affirm this truth. Certainly those who are spiritual babies and spiritual children are inexperienced in recognizing these truths of Jesus being Lord..

Secondly , concerning 1 John . Ive studied these verses and their meanings 25 years ago as they do have deep and important content concerning the lives of everyday christians. We recognize our walk with God is a gradual and constantly increase of knowledge and understanding of who we are and who God is. AS new believers we havent the understanding through faith to grasp the concepts of God. They are to be proven. And upon acceptance of foundational truths. The christian moves forward with more complex content.

Although we find a large difference between the child stage and young man stage as not only wisdom and instruction is tried but our faith concerning WHO GOD IS..

It is here we find the refusal of accepting the nature of God that disallows the child not to continue towards the next stage. This is the time of persecution and trials against the childs faith. Is the child continuing his walk by expressing love towards his brothers and sisters by forgiving their trespasses against the believer..

MANY FAIL THIS TRIAL. And remain carnal children until tried again. And this depends on the childs desire to continually be tried or that the Holy Spirit stops the persecutions and the child returns to being controlled by the desires of their flesh. Or past lifestyle.


1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Sanctification and the importance of successfully passing this stage between child and young man is Greatly misunderstood Today

Oops,..did I mention that this is the point that you can now describe the christian as disciple. (from child to young man stage) after completing this important jucture in their spiritual walk with God. They now are witnessed as saying from their Spirit
“Jesus is Lord”….Believers in the child stage cant declare this truth. That Jesus is their Lord. I notice that you post many scriptures concerning the title of Jesus as Lord to being accepted by unbelievers.. that is incorrect. Unbelievers cant comprehend that Jesus is lord. They just Cant. That Knowledge to the believer has to be taught first to their spirit…and also must be tried by trials and persecution..

the scripture references to believing Jesus as Lord and that the “believer” will be “saved” referrs to spiritual children advancing to the next stage…the young man stage.

Heres another point of contention. All believers are taught of the Holy spirit. This requires no other input from any other source. He teaches us spiritual truth straight to our spirits..not through our carnal minds. We cant even hear or detect these conversations. The Holy spirit also provides the understanding towards this wisdom. Its spiritual “Hands on” experience. The two combined parts are what is called knowledge.
Does our carnal brain know of this knowledge…..NO…yet we go scurrying within the pages of our bible to attempt to interpret what our spirits is declaring as truth. We attempt to find english words to describe to our brain what the spirit already understands….heres an inside truth…we cant interpret correctly what the bible means to our carnal brain unless we are taught the wisdom of the Holy Spirit first, Receive the understanding. and are tried of the Holy spirit and our spirit within us begins to desire to relay that knowledge to our carnal brain. Our spirit already knows the truth. Its our carnal brain that is going to recieve this knowledge for witnessing to others. To feed ourselves. And others.


most scriptures focusing on Jesus being The “Christ” is directed to Children. Notice 1 John1..no mention of Lord..just Christ. Their high priest.

here is an important note. Babes and Children DO NOT UNDERSTAND anything past Jesus being their Christ. NOTHING. for their understanding cannot comprehend the ideas and its larger complex issues.
Children accept that God has raised Jesus from the dead. yet they DO NOT ACCEPT THAT THEY THEMSELVES HAVE BEEN RAISED FROM THE DEAD.
what does children Focus on. Look at hebrews 6.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

they learn the rudiments.. the doctrine of christ.
they are taught wisdom that Christ is within them, that they themselves are dead to sin and that they have been raised from the dead...

YET THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TRIED. THEIR FAITH HAS YET TO BE PROVEN....they have 1/2 of their training up to this point. the other 1/2 is the understanding or the proving of the things that they have been taught of the Holy Spirit. Again this is where the bible speaks to great measures of those failing to successfully pass this jucture and accept these spiritual truths.

This is a process, Tazman, We are given the same opportunity of God, Yet some desire to please God while others live for themselves and do not desire to sacrifice everything to gain the things that God is inviting them to receive for Free.

Now 1 John is not to be taken litely for it contains a treasure chest of knowledge. It all depends on how valuable the believer thinks it is. Such as the young man stage. They have overcome.. doesn’t revelations say something about overcoming? And the father stage. What really does it mean to know God who is from the beginning.? Or what does it mean that the young man overcomes Satan? Many questions are answered from this chapter in 1 John.

Me2

 

"What scripture address rejection of God by a Saved Disciple?"
Peter’s denial of Christ

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]So you agree that someone saved can Reject Christ!
Peter was re-instated by Jesus tho. </font>[/QUOTE]Peter did not reject the Christ, but merely denied that he knew Him out of the "need" for self preservation. Peter fulfilled Jesus prophesy that he would deny knowing or being with or being a follower of Christ. That is not the same as losing one's faith and rejecting what had been in favor of what one has become.

 

Did Jesus not say in Matthew 26 that ALL his disciples will FALL AWAY on account of him???
Remember, all of them at the supper said (your words are an oath to God) that they will not leave him?

Peter did LEAVE Christ and lost faith as did a number of other disciples. It was hard for them to believe until and after they saw him again Matthew 28:16-17 "Some doubted" Remember he met with his disciples. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]No Tazman, you missed the point. Peter did not lose his professed faith in Jesus. He was acting on the principle of self-preservation, lest he too be tried by the religious leaders who had Jesus before their kangaroo court. This Self-preservation may well have been Jesus' way of protecting his disciples from the same fate that he was committed to. How else would the Church be born if not through Jesus Disciples?

Did the disciples all leave Jesus? Without doubt they, during the troubling days of Jesus' Passion, did back away from him. Did they lose their faith in Him? I don't think so, else they would not have huddled together for comfort and consolation. They would instead have split for safer territory.

Did they think they had Lost Jesus? No doubt, but the truth is they did not have time nor the reason to lose their faith in him. They were with him up to the time he was "captured" by Judas' Kiss, and then they scattered in "self-preservation" only to be "gathered again" by the shepherd 3 days later.

Now you try it for yourself. You lose faith in your wife in less than 24 hours. I dare you to be successful; not because you can, but because you can't! These disciples were with Jesus most of the time for over three years, and their relationship with Jesus was very strong. They could no more lose their faith in Him than you can in your wife. I've been there twice in my life and I can assure you it took several years each time for me to lose my faith in the other party, even though I was "victimized" both times by "good Christian women" and still it took a long time for me to lose faith in them.