Holy Changes!

DHK,

Your argument is baseless. You said, "Is that really what you want God to do?" The fact that you asked that meant that they're addressing God and making a request. Just as we are told to not pray in vein repeitions, that very statement means that prayer can be said in vein repetitions, it is merely a bad thing.

And, for your sake, let's take the rare instance when the person is truely asking God to d**n them. It's a request, addressed to God.

God bless,

Grant

 

Good attitudes make all the difference in the world!

Hopefully you can see the correlation here, and understand the Catholic meaning for "Communion of Saints." Can we take things straight to Jesus? Of course. Does it work every time? Of course. Does Jesus always listen? Of course. I pity the Catholic soul who thinks otherwise...they need to give me a call so we can talk!!

The fact of the matter is that as Christians, we have the blessing and privelege to pray for one another. While one person praying for our needs is great...doesn't a thousand sound a lot better? Wouldn't you be greatful if you were very, very sick, and your whole congregation was praying for you? If not, please tell me so now.

If so, then you realize the benefit of many people praying for you. The saints in Heaven also pray for us. And, being in the beatific vision of God, 24 hours a day (relatively speaking), their prayers are especially beneficial. They will always pray with complete concentration, with the best intentions, and frankly, they'll never forget to pray for me.

Praying to Mary for her intercession with Jesus is not a substitute - EVER. However, it is a wonderful option. The very mother of God, who persuaded Jesus to perform His very first miracle, is on my team, rooting for me. I can pray, and she can pray for me too. That's two, and two is better than one. Guess what? On top of all my friends and church members, all of the saints in Heaven are eager to aid us in our prayers as well!

Make sense (regardless if you believe it or not)?

I wouldn't be Catholic if I didn't know that it was what God wanted for me. Fortunately, He led me here, and filled me with the peace that surpasses all human understanding.

Well, I'm fighting a terrible illness (not a cold, not the flu, but something in that neighborhood), and I've been coughing up a storm since last Thursday. If you have an open slot in your prayers, I would be honored if you'd stick me in there!

God bless you,

Grant

 

Revelation 4:8
"The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"

Did Jesus not know about this going on in Heaven?

Or could your understanding of Matthew 6:7 be in error?

[ October 30, 2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Brian,

I was not born Catholic, and yes, I had to work through it, and pray about it, until I found peace in an answer.

I'm not sure why you can't understand it when you can understand all of the other impossibilities that Christ made possible.

And lastly, the verse does not say, as you said, "no repetitious prayers." It says no "VAIN repetitions," or as another translation reads, "babbling."

God bless,

Grant

 

Brian,

The Greek word that the KJV translates as "use vain repetitions" is "battologeo." Here's a link (hope it works!) to info on that word from Strong's:

"Battologeo"

Hope this helps,

Mark H.

 

Brian,

Your LACK of bias is what I love so much about talking with you.

As I believe I mentioned earlier, my Bible (St. Joseph Edition, yes Catholic) does not read vain reptitions, but "babbles."

As for the earlier question...can you not pray aloud? If so, could not Mary and the saints pray aloud to Jesus...face to face?

God bless,

Grant

 

Grant,

For what (little) it's worth, I would consider that "definition number two" should be taken as a whole, since the authors combined all that material together as a unit rather than subdividing it into definitions 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. In other words, the "babbling," "prating," "many idle words" etc. are part and parcel with the "repeat over and over," giving an overall meaning along the lines of "repeating the same thing over and over in a babbling, prating way, resulting in many idle words" (or something like that).

Otherwise, why include the babbling and prating within that definition at all? If it adds no meaning, it's mere surplusage (to use a term I've picked up around the courts).

Obviously, my "court" would rule differently than yours. But then, I live in a (supposedly) conservative jurisdiction.

Mark

 

Oops, that should've been addressed to Brian, not Grant. Sorry!

 

Hi Brian,

I've got to run to a meeting in a sec, so no time for research. But off the top of my head, to answer the "what exactly were these heathens doing" question, I'd look to what Jesus said about them in the remainder of the verse: "for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

In some sense, they apparently believed that by using a lot of words, their prayers would receive a better response. (I've heard someplace, but don't have any cite at hand and therefore can't say whether it's true or not, that the "many words" included addressing the same prayer to a number of pagan gods in the hopes that one god or another might grant it). That sort of concern has nothing much to do with the Rosary, where the prayers serve as a framework for meditation and (originally, I've read) as an illiterate persons' substitute for the 150 psalms. Nobody thinks, "hey, if I throw in an extra Lord's Prayer, my Rosary will be even more effective" or anything like that.

Gotta run -- I may check by tomorrow if I get a chance at lunchtime.

God bless,

Mark

P.S. -- sorry about the stream of consciousness approach.

 

Revelation 19
19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 5:8-13
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Here are some examples of prayer in Heaven. There is never any example of prayer, where any of the saints are praying for those on earth, or receiving prayers from those on earth. We, whether in Heaven or on earth, are always commanded to pray to "Our Father who art in heaven." The praise is due only to God. Christ, being God, is worthy of our praise. The saints, including Mary, are not. We are not to pray to them. That is idolatry, for prayer is a form of worship. The only one who intercedes for us is Jesus Christ, our advocate. (1John 2:1,2)
DHK

 

DHK,

Thank you for your opinion.

God bless,

Grant

 

Verse 7. "Use not vain repetitions." The original word here is supposed to be derived from the name of a Greek poet, who made long and weary verses, declaring, by many forms and endless repetitions, the same sentiment. Hence it means to repeat a thing often, to say the same thing in different words, or to repeat the same words, as though God did not hear at first. An example of this we have in 1Ki 18:26: "They Called on Baal from morning until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us;"*
"The heathen do." The original word is one commonly translated Gentile. The world was divided into two parts, the Jews and the Gentiles; that is, in the original, the "nations," the nations destitute of the true religion. Christ does not fix the length of our prayers. He says that they should not repeat the same thing, as though God did not hear. And it is not improbable that he intended to condemn the practice of long prayers. His own supplications were remarkably short.
{q} "as the heathens do" Ec 5:2
{*} The following is a specimen of the vain repetitions of the Romans.
"Pious Antonine, the Gods preserve thee. Gentle Antonine, the Gods preserve thee. Gentle Antonine, the Gods preserve thee." (Barnes Notes)

Could not the Romans be just as sincere in their prayers as the Catholics are in their prayers to Mary. The prayers to Mary are just as repetitious.
DHK

 

So did it come from a Greek poet or from a King? We have two different people here. Which is it?

God bless,

Grant

 

Brian,

Glad you're able to understand where we are coming from, and yes, feeling better, though I am on my sixth day of sickness! Yuck!

God bless,

Grant