The Funeral Of Joseph

The Roman Catholic Church deduces from the fact that since no mention is made in the Bible of Mary's death that she was assumed bodily into heaven, so I guess we are to assume the same of Joseph as well, no?

 

Net,

You hit nail on the head. The Bible does not speak about Christ's life following his birth and sojourn in Egypt (at very early age) until we see him at the temple at age 12. Then silence until he begins his public ministry at age 30. If Joseph passed away sometime between the time Jesus was 12 and 30 years old why would you expect to see it recorded in the Bible?

Likewise, you are mistaken about Jesus not having any half-brothers or half-sisters. James the author of the Book of James was the half-brother of Jesus. Also the Bible tells us that Jesus' mother, Mary, and his brothers came to see him (Matt. 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21). Furthermore, We know that he had at least four borthers named James, Joses, Simon, and Judas (Matt. 13:55) and that he had at least two sisters (Matt. 13:56). Finally, note that the Biblical text informs us that when Joseph took Mary to be his wife that he did not know her (meaning sexually) until after she had given birth to the Christ child (Matt. 1:25).

Jesus commanded His disciple John, who I think also happened to be His cousin, to care for His mother. Perhaps He did this because His half-brothers and half-sisters had not become Christians yet. Therefore, it was appropriate for Him to have John (a Christian) care for Mary (a Christian).

[ January 11, 2003, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

There are only two in the Bible's Old Testament--none in the New--which tells of certain prophets who were taken up--

Enoch--who was translated that he should not see death---they went lookin' for him but could not find him--the Hebrew versions of the FBI, CIA, Scotland Yard, and the KGB gave up the search--the Bible says that ole En walked with God and became a "Was Not"--he just went on walkin--made no difference to him whether it was on earth's dusty roads or Heaven's golden ones---he just kept on walkin' with God. Ole En had a prophecy before he left--Jude tells us that Enoch prophecied--"Behold, He cometh with ten thousands of His saints"---imagine that--the man who "left" to go to God--says that God is "Comin'"--and En will be in the crowd coming with him--at last the Earth will "find" the missing prophet!!

Elijah--the chariot swoops down and the horses of Israel galloped back up to GloryLand with a prophet as a passenger!!! With his own eyes--Elisha is a witness to the horsemen of Israel until Elisha "saw him(Elijah) no more."

God's word goes into graphic detail concerning the "swooping away" of these two Old Testament men into GloryLand---how come it is so important that we know and understand the "going away" of these two men---but nowhere in the New Testament does it say anything whatsoever about the departures that Mary and Joseph made?

I tell you what!! Ezekiel saw a valley full of dry bones and God Almighty made those bones to live again--a good picture of the nation of Israel--one of these days a resurrection will take place and before our eyes---every Israelite who ever lived will come up from the dust---Mary's bones will come to their bone--God will speak to Mary's dust and bones lying somewhere in the Middle Eastern soil---Ankle bone will connect to the shin bone--shin bone will connect to the hip bone . . . and Mary will fall down before the face of the Lord Jesus Christ and give Him glory to the church forever and ever.

Funny, though, how the Bible goes into great detail concerning two prophets from Israel's history--but gives nary a clue to what happens to "God's Mother"--funny

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

That is not what the "church" teaches.

John was Jesus' "bosom friend" and at that time His brothers had not yet believed on Him. It was not until after the resurrection that His brother James came to believe.

 

You are right and wrong, Psalm. The Church does not teach that Mary died, nor does it teach that she did not.

The doctrine of the Assumption says only that "having completed the course of her earthly life, [the Virgin Mary] was assumed body and soul into heaven,", not that she did not die.

Some theologians have argued (rightly or wrongly) that Mary didn't die, but the dogma itself doesn't say this.

 

Hello Net,

The Bible says that Jesus had the half-brothers and half-sisters that I noted above with Scripture references. If you have a problem with Jesus having these half-brothers and half-sisters you have a problem with the Word of God.

The logic that you are using to arrive at the conclusion that the early Christians would have considered Jesus' relatives as some sort of special person(s) has one big problem. That problem is that perhaps the early church understood that they were not to venerate any human being and that all of their love, honor, and respect was poured out to Christ alone.

Finally, James the brother of Jesus, does figure into the history of the early Christian Church. He became a leader of the Jerusalem Church. It was this James that Paul refers to meeting with in Jerusalem (along with Peter) in Galatians 1:18-19. Likewise, Paul references meeting with "James, Cephas, and John who seemed to be pillars (Galatians 2:9)" when he returned to Jerusalem 14 years later. This James that Paul refers to meeting could not have been the disciple James (the brother of John) because that James (the brother of John) was martyred shortly after the resurrection of Christ. Herod had John the Baptist beheaded and saw that killing Jesus pleased the people so he snatched up another "trouble-maker" and had him killed. Supposedly Herod had the disciple James (the brother of John) sawed in half.

[ January 12, 2003, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

Hi Net,

You are correct the Bible does not specifically refer to them as Jesus' half-brothers or half-sisters. It simply says brothers and sisters, or in the case of James, "the Lord's brother" (Gal. 1:19). What I have done is to use the common sense that God gave me to understand that God is the Father of Jesus and that Mary was his mother.

Then the Bible says that Joseph took Mary as his wife "and did not know her till she had brought forth her first born son" (Matt. 1:25, NKJV). That means Joseph did not know Mary sexually until after Jesus was born. Then the Bible says that Jesus's mother and brothers came to see him (as I have noted above). The Bible gives the names of the brothers (as I have noted above) and indicates that Jesus had at least two sisters as well (as I have noted above). That all means that Joseph and Mary had children together after Jesus was born. Logically, common sense dictates that because Joseph is not Jesus' physical father and Mary is Jesus' physical mother these "brothers and sisters" that Joseph and Mary conceived together (following the birth of Jesus) are in reality His half-brothers and half-sisters.

However, don't take my word for it (or some priest's). Go back to your own Bible and read the passages that I have quoted above and see what the text plainly says and rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth of God's Word to you.

 

Hello Net,

I don’t know where you got the idea that the words used for "brothers" and "sisters" can also be used to mean "cousins." The New Testament Greek in Matthew 13:55 uses the words οί αδελφοί (hoi adelphoi), which is the plural for brother (i.e. brothers). Likewise, the Bible speaks of Mary visiting her cousin Elizabeth (Luke 1:36). The New Testament Greek words used in that verse are ή συγγενίς (hei suggenis), which is the singular for kinswoman or female relative. Likewise, the New Testament Greek of the Bible also uses ας συγγένεια (as suggeneia), meaning kindred or relatives, and οϋς συγενεϋσιν (ous suggeneusin), meaning male relative, kinsman, or fellow-countryman. All these forms of distant relations use the same root word in the Greek. However, the Greek words for brother and sister do no use that same root (they use adelphos as their root).

You see in the New Testament Greek there is a specific word for brothers (adelphoi) and sisters (adelphai) and a specific word used to indicate a more distant relative such as a cousin (suggenis). Therefore, you cannot translate the passages that I have noted above to mean cousins or other distant relatives.

Likewise, when Mary and Joseph took Jesus up to the temple in Jerusalem when He was twelve they did so as a rite of passage for Him. You see at age twelve all Hebrew males are no longer considered children. At age twelve they become men. This visit to the temple was all about Jesus and not about his younger brothers or sisters. With your line of argument here you are attempting to argue from silence. This is what is called an Informal Fallacy. Logically speaking it is a very weak argument. You see all that can really be deduced or known for sure is that the source (the Bible) simply does not reference the other children being at the temple. However, that does not support the idea that they do not exist.

[ January 13, 2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

Mary and Joseph fell victim to the truth of God's word that says--"The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die!!" They both layed down and died sure as the fact that one day you and I are gonna do the same thing--assumin' is just that---assumin'---but my belief goes beyond assumin'--and I'm rockin' on the truth of the above verse---and I'm rockin' on the truth of the resurrection--on that day!!

Your buddy,
Blackbird

 

Adam, I guess that it went right by you.

The official dogma is "having completed the course of her earthly life, [the Virgin Mary] was assumed body and soul into heaven,",

"assumed body and soul into heaven"

 

Adam, I guess that it went right by you.

The official dogma is "having completed the course of her earthly life, [the Virgin Mary] was assumed body and soul into heaven,",

"assumed body and soul into heaven"</font>[/QUOTE]Hello Trying2,

What verses of Scripture support Mary's supposedly being "assumed body and soul into heaven"?

 

I don't hold to the man made doctrine of sola scriptura.

What verses of Scripture support sola scriptura?

The Bible does however tell us to hold fast to tradition and that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

So yer not gonna answer this one, either, eh Ron ?

 

I did answer, Curtis.

 

I don't hold to the man made doctrine of sola scriptura.

What verses of Scripture support sola scriptura?

The Bible does however tell us to hold fast to tradition and that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.</font>[/QUOTE]Specifically which verses of Scripture tell us to hold fast to tradition (and indicate that that tradition is the "tradition" of the Roman Catholic Church)?

You don't hold to the "man-made doctrine of sola scriptura," but you are willing to hold to a whole bunch of other man-made doctrines based on... man-made dogma. That is not logical at all. As far as sola scriptura goes if you don't stand on the Word of God you will fall for anything.